Link in teams: Fight or Flight(Teaming with Pit)

[GodAtHand]

Zelda in teams with Link.

I've played this before (not with a pro link mind you). But here is what I think:

Pros:
- The spam can go uninterrupted. Zelda can shoot Din's through Link while he does his camping thing and that should work pretty well.
- Link can break Din's with his nair, So if someone needs to go into the fray in order to mix it up or whatever the Link can simply nair to stop from getting hit by dins and possibly hit enemies in order to make sure they get hit by Din's or vice versa.
- If Link DIs wrong or gets hit low Zelda can hit him with Din's to recover at the expense of damage.
- They don't lack kill power so they both should be able to kill well.

Cons:
- If they are both in recovery positions they are kinda screwed.
- They are both ridiculously slow. If Link is being overwhelmed Zelda's best bet is to just Din's everything and hope to reset the positions. If Zelda is in trouble I am not sure what Link should do though...
- Be careful not to gale boomerang Zelda while she is using Din's... because she could die.


Thats all I can think of for now.

 

[Ryos4]

Hey i just took over the thread. I was wondering if people can look over the OP and tell me if theres something i need to change, add, take out, or w/e. Its my first attempt at controlling a discussion thread.

 

[quirkynature]

Hey i just took over the thread. I was wondering if people can look over the OP and tell me if theres something i need to change, add, take out, or w/e. Its my first attempt at controlling a discussion thread.

Nice and organized OP!! Looks awesome so far. ^_^

 

[Anonano]

I was going to say "You can probably use that fancy collapse thing that Scabe was to make it easier to browse"

But you already are. Good work.

 

[Ryos4]

Thats good then.

UPDATED AGAIN.

Come on discuss the Zelda team.

From Dekar's guide.
Zelda: Punish Gimmick
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 4
Punisher- 8
DPS- 5
Good Offensive Support
Decent Defensive Support
Minor Interference Issues
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

Zelda in my opinion is extremely defensive and is rather underrated. Her smashes are pretty amazing with range, priority, speed, and even duration. So they would cause some craziness in the fray and Link could concentrate on support. While at the same time being rather safe from Link's Projectiles with Naru's love, which can also be a very good GTFO move.

I know one of Zelda's throws has a constant knock back, Dthrow i think. Send them directly behind Zelda not very far, making it easy for Link to know where they are going and set up a Dair.

Link's projectiles could act as stuns for Zelda to go in and go in for the kill with attacks like Utilt, Uair, and either of her Kicks.

While Zelda's Din's Fire does help Link recover. It does leave her wide open for quite a long time and may not be too helpful to the Team and could end up having both Link and Zelda taken out at the same time. However, the fire can be used to break up Link from opponents if hes in trouble, but at the same time Uspecial could do it as well, and help Zelda jump in between them. Thus allowing Link to go back to camping.

Zelda stage choice from Zelda Boards:

Good: BF, SV

Bad: everything else.

But seriously, she only does well on basic neutrals imo. Anything gimpy tends to not work out too well for her, especially tilts (Lylat), bad ledges (PS1, Frigate), and just plain stupid **** (RC). I'm also not a huge fan of stages with permeable bottoms (Halberd, Delfino), because FW can occasionally decide to miss the ledge and make you fall to your doom.

I suspect that Brinstar might secretly be good for her in some MUs, and I personally love Castle Siege, but those may be personal things.

brinstar is my fav CP with Zelda I love going there ^_^. RC is also a fav of mine so is halberd.

Brinstar apparently is a good choice for both characters. Might be a good stage for the doubles match.


Frame Data on Zelda from the Zelda Board

Spoiler

Great Fairy Fountain

A Research Thread

Thanks to Fumbles

LISTING:

Frame Data

• Smashes
• Tilts
• Other Ground Moves
• Aerials
• Specials
• Misc.

Specific Moves

• Dtilt
• Nair
• Nayru's Love
  
• Dthrow
• Jab
  

Frame Data

[collapse=Click to show Frame Data:]Smashes

FSmash

​

• Startup: 1 - 15
  
• Hitbox: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 (5 hits)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 25 - 39, 40 (IASA)
  
• Knockback: 0% = 49 (non-charged) - 55km/h (charged) / 100% = 119 - 157km/h
  
• Growth Rate: Non-charged = 35.26 (2468 - 5994) / Charged = 51.38 (2770 - 7908)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

DSmash

• Startup: 1 - 3
  
• Hitbox: 4 - 5 (Front Hit) / 12 - 14 9 (Back Hit)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 15 - 39, 40 (IASA)
  
• Knockback: 0% = 32 (non-charged) - 39km/h (charged) / 100% = 95 - 124km/h
  
• Growth Rate: Non-charged = 31.73 (1612 - 4785) / Charged = 42.81 (1964 - 6245)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Usmash

• Startup: 1 - 5
  
• Hitbox: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 (11 hits)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 32 - 56, 57 (IASA)
  
• Knockback: 0% = 47 (non-charged) - 56km/h (charged) / 100% = 117 - 146km/h
  
• Growth Rate: Non-charged = 35.26 (2367 - 5893) / Charged = 45.33 (2821 - 7354)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Tilts

Ftilt

• Startup: 1 - 11
  
• Hitbox: 12 - 14
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 15 - 39, 40 (IASA)
• Knockback: 0% = 51 / 100% = 114 km/h (mid to tipper range for all angles) // 0% = 48 - 50 / 100% = 103 - 109 km/h (Normal & Downward / Upward angle for the respective 1st and 2nd numbers).
  
• Growth Rate: 27.7 (2418 - 5188)

• Hitlag: 10
  
• Shield Hitlag: 10
  
• Shield Stun: 5
  
• Disadvantage: -16

Dtilt

• Startup: 1 - 4
  
• Hitbox: 5 - 11
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 12 - 24, 25 (IASA)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Utilt

• Startup: 1 - 9
  
• Hitbox: 10 - 24
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 25 - 47, 48 (IASA)

• Hitlag: 14
  
• Shield Hitlag: 14
  
• Shield Stun: 6
  
• Disadvantage: -29 (from front)
  

Other Ground Moves

Jab

• Startup: 1 - 10
  
• Hitbox: 11, 13, 15 (3 hits)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 16 - 24, 25 (IASA)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage: -8
  

Dash Attack

• Startup: 1 - 5
  
• Hitbox: 6 - ??
  
• Cooldown / IASA:
  

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Standard Grab

• Startup: 1 - 11
• Hitbox: 12 - 13
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 14 - 29, 30 (IASA)
  

Dash Grab

• Startup: 1 - 10
• Hitbox: 11 - 12
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 13 - 39, 40 (IASA)

Pivot Grab

• Startup: 1 - 13
• Hitbox: 14 - 15
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 16 - 35, 36 (IASA)

Pummel

• Startup: 1 - 6
  
• Hitbox: 7
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 8 - 31, 32 (IASA)

Fthrow

• Startup: 1 - 26
  
• Hitbox: 27
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 28 - 39, 40 (IASA)

Bthrow

• Startup: 1 - 23
  
• Hitbox: 24
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 25 - 39, 40 (IASA)

Dthrow

• Startup: 1 - 24
  
• Hitbox: 25, 34, 43, 52, 63 (5 hits)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 64 - 81, 82 (IASA)

Uthrow

• Startup: 1 - 23
  
• Hitbox: 24
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 25 - 39, 40 (IASA)

​

Aerials

Nair

• Startup: 1 - 5
  
• Hitbox: 6, ??, ??, ??, ?? (5 hits)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 12 - 24, 25 (IASA)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage: -11 (AC Nair on shield and landing straight after)
  

Fair

• Startup: 1 - 7
  
• Hitbox: 8
  
• Cooldown / IASA:
• Knockback: 0% = 53 / 100% = 153 km/h
  
• Growth Rate: 50.37 (2669 - 7706)
  

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Bair

• Startup: 1 - 4
  
• Hitbox: 5
  
• Cooldown / IASA:
• Knockback: 0% = 57 / 100% = 158 km/h
  
• Growth Rate: 50.87 (2871 - 7958)
  

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Dair

• Startup: 1 - 14
  
• Hitbox: 15 - 24
  
• Cooldown / IASA:

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Uair

• Startup: 1 - 13
  
• Hitbox: 14
  
• Cooldown / IASA:
• Knockback: 0% = 46 / 100% = 136 km/h
  
• Growth Rate: 45.33 (2317 - 6850)
  

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Specials

Nayru's Love

• Startup: 1 - 4
  
• Hitbox: 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 29 - 59, 60 (IASA)
• Invincibility: 5 - 11
• Reflection: 5 - 44
  

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Din's Fire

• Startup: 1 - 30
  
• Hitbox: 31 - 32 (Instant Detonation)
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 33 - 56, 57 (IASA)
• Solo Fireball: 1 - 8 (startup), 9 (hitbox)
  

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Transformation

• Startup:
  
• Hitbox:
  
• Cooldown / IASA:

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Farore's Wind

• Part 1 Startup: 1 - 10
  
• Hitbox: 11 - 12
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 13 - 33

• Part 2 Startup: 0
• Hitbox: 1 - 2
• Cooldown / IASA: 3 - 29, 30 (IASA)

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Misc.

Ledge Attack < 100%

• Startup: 1 - 26
  
• Hitbox: 27
  
• Cooldown / IASA:

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Ledge Attack > 100%

• Startup: 1 - 33
  
• Hitbox: 34
  
• Cooldown / IASA:

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Tech Roll Attack

• Startup:
• Hitbox:
• Cooldown / IASA:

• Hitlag:
  
• Shield Hitlag:
  
• Shield Stun:
  
• Disadvantage:

Shield / Shield Drop

• Startup: 1 (to shield) / 7 (to drop)
  

Roll Forward / Backward

• Startup: 1 - 3
  
• Invincibility: 4 - 19
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 20 - 31, 32 (IASA)

Spotdodge

• Startup: 1
  
• Invincibility: 2 - 20
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 21 - 25, 26 (IASA)

Airdodge

• Startup: 1 - 3
  
• Invincibility: 4 - 29
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 30 - 49, 50 (IASA)

​

Specific Moves

[collapse=Dtilt:]Everything discovered about Dtilt so far!

This move has 3 common situations.

• Stun
• Trip / Tech Chase
• Pop-Up

STUN
Stun is when the opponent flinches. The higher their percent, the higher their stun. Other factors include the decay of Dtilt itself - the fresher it is, the more stun it gives.
At earlier percents, Dtilt doesn't offer many advantages. It shines at 50% and later. The stun at this point gives Zelda the frame advantages to follow up accordingly.

50% here is an average amongst the overall cast. The lighter the character, the earlier the percent will be that starts to make Dtilt more effective. The opposite applies for heavier characters:
Stun that is weakened due to decaying your Dtilt can be restored by damaging the opponent with a followup. This is because the opponent's percentage is increasing from followups (stun increase) whilst Dtilt is staling to provide such followups (stun decrease) - there is a balance.

If you're followups do 10% damage or more, the next Dtilt you land should always provide a frame advantage for a guaranteed followup every single time beyond the opponent's 50% mark of their stock.

- Followups from Dtilt Frame Advantages:

• Dsmash
• Dtilt... (Dtilt... Dtilt... )
• Dash Attack
• Usmash (when close)

If you're Dtilt is fresh and the opponent is around the 70+% mark, you can link in slower moves such as Utilt, Grab. Anything beyond 10 frames is not advised.

- So if I followup with another Dtilt around 50+%, can I lock the opponent?

Yes! This is because your Dtilt is giving damage as it stales, but the damage it does give allows the next Dtilt enough advantage to combo, same with the next one after that, and after that one etc... so a lock is form. The opponent can only SDI in this situation; they can do nothing else.

Samus and DK cannot be locked due to their flinch animations.

TRIP / TECH CHASE
Dtilt can trip the opponent. The trip rate is 40%. Tripping provides a fixed advantage of 19 frames. You can followup with a variety of options:

• Dsmash / Fsmash / Usmash
• Jab / Dash Attack / Dtilt / Ftilt / Utilt (Opponent must be DDD large or higher)
• Grab
• Farore's Part 1 / Nayru's Love
• Lightning Kick (Requirements for this followup are discussed later)
• Tech Chasing *
  

* Dtilt tripping also provides tech chasing opportunities. A character generally won't roll behind you - they can be caught in another Dtilt. A getup attack can be shielded and countered. Therefore the opponent may choose to roll away - depending on height, you may choose to anticipate this, run up to them, and attempt to lightning kick them.

Here are character roll lengths:
- Landing a sweetspotted Lightning kick from a trip:

On trip, SH Fair sweetspots are guaranteed on these characters:

​

On trip, SH Bair sweetspots are guaranteed on these characters:

​

On trip, turnaround dropthrough Bair sweetspots are guaranteed on everyone on a platform:

​

POP-UP
This situation is weight dependent. Lighter characters will pop up from Dtilt earlier than heavies. Characters can pop up from as early as 70%. Percent and Dtilt Decay affect pop-ups.
The opponent has 6 frames to act before Zelda can catch them with an attack. Zelda has a number of moves that can catch out airdodgers in this situation:

• Usmash
• Dash Attack
• Utilt

Dtilt > Usmash/Utilt are legitimate KO setups. Dtilt > Dash Attacks chases the opponent if they DI the Dtilt to the left or right when popped up. The weaker Dtilt is and if the opponent pops up, the lesser the distance they are able to DI the hit, meaning hyphen Usmashes are viable to chase them. Stale Dtilts also have better 'tumbling' effects on the opponents, restricting them from counter-attacking or popping up.
[/collapse][collapse=Nair:]Interesting mechanics of Nair!

There are 5 hits to the move, with the 5th one having knockback. The first 4 hits have no knockback growth and cannot be DI'd or SDI'd. As such any follow-ups are guaranteed based on these 4 prior hits. This is known as following up on an autocancelled Nair. A number of trajectories have been found:

• Low trajectory A
  
• Low trajectory B (from a higher position off the ground)
• Straight up trajectory
• Straight down trajectory

LOW TRAJECTORIES
Low trajectories can be forced. This video demonstrates low trajectories and followups:

​

Forcing such a trajectory is done in the way you drag your grounded opponent. The ideal positioning is to hit the opponent so that they are launched through and behind you in a more horizontal trajectory parallel to the ground. This forces a hard landing. The advantage here is +32.

A more vertical trajectory can be seen in the video. It is currently uknown how this is achieved though it is suspected to be done by hitting with 2 hits of the nair. Done ideally your opponent ends up traveling at a low trajectory right above your head. This doesn't force a hard laning and the opponent can airdodge just before they touch the ground. The advantage here is +28.

- The following is guaranteed if the trajectory is read:

• Grab
• Dash Attack
• Usmash (hyphen)
  
• Dsmash
• Dtilt
• Ftilt
• Fsmash
• Buffered SH Fair / Bair

STRAIGHT UP AND DOWN TRAJECTORIES
Nair can spike. This is a very rare occurrence and a research topic!
[/collapse][collapse=Nayru's Love:]Unusual mechanics of Nayru's Love include:

• Momentum Cancelling
• Riding Momentum

MOMENTUM CANCELLING
Nayru's has momentum changing properties that have given Zelda the tool to immediately brake and slightly reverse the knockback she receives from an attack. This allows her to save the second jump for recovery.

How to do:

1. Once hit, immediately fast-fall bair.
2. Upon using the bair, press neutral B and reverse it.

​

Failure to execute this properly can have life-threatening consequences. Make sure you learn how to momentum-cancel properly.

RIDING MOMENTUM
There are instances when using Nayru's whilst in knockback momentum where she can fall incredibly fast and travel distances in the air by 'riding' this momentum.

- Directions known to be buffered:

• Straight down - simply press Nayru's from knockback momentum.

• Diagonally (down-forward) - buffer this direction just at the end of your momentum and then press Nayru's.

• Reversed Diagonal (down-backward) - simply use a b-reversed Nayru's and during momentum and instead of going forward you'll go backwards but down.

• Straight up - this is known as "the lovejump" in which you press jump from the momentum and then immediately use Nayru's to jump very high.

• Diagonally (up-forward) - a b-reversed "lovejump" that will make you go diagonally up.

The application of these techniques are very limited,

An example of buffered Nayru's is right here at around 1:00: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LraLkK3wyPs
[/collapse][collapse=Jab:]Jab Facts!

• On Shield
• On Hit
• Misc.
  

ON SHIELD
Jab has a -8 disadvantage on shields. This means:

• When spaced it cannot be countered by normal grabs.
• The average tether grab is 10-11 frames. Jab is relatively safe from tethers.

Jab in this instance can place wear and tear on shields with small risk of being punished. It doesn't push as far back as Fsmash so it keeps the opponent in place. It can act as a tool in setting up pokes, namely from Dtilt or Dsmash if the opponent does not roll away. Parts of the shield can be exposed and exploited by moves with poking qualities.

ON HIT
Jab has a large amount of hitstun regardless of how stale it is.
Unfortunately due to jab's pushback and Zelda's lack of speed, following up on the move can be tricky. Therefore decaying jab a lot is somewhat useful in keeping the opponent in a range so that you can capitalise on its hitstun.
- A followup needs to be quick:

• Dash Attack
• Dash Grab

Dash attack may not be guaranteed if the opponent is too far, same with dash grab. Zelda must read the situation right. Opponents may tend to shield if they see an approaching Zelda, in which case dash grab may be a choice worth considering.

Mixing up at this point could be useful. Remember: you never have to follow up if you know it's too dangerous. You are in control before the opponent by a moderate amount of frames, so you can attempt to space on your terms here.

MISC.
Extra information will go here. Other ideas:

• Jab's stun when it hits an opponent off the ledge.
• Jab > Dtilt on a shield - a guaranteed poke?
• Jab > Fair on heavies?

[/collapse][collapse=Dthrow:]Strange facts on Dthrow!

DTHROW SPIKE
This is a very situational spike. The requirements are:

• Battlefield as the arena
  • Grab someone so you hold them over the ledge. Then Dthrow. They will spike.
    Confirmed to work on 4 characters.
• (Both ledges) / (Right ledge only)
• Other stages are known but are not officially listed. For more info, go here

​

[/collapse]
​

[/collapse]

 

[quirkynature]

Zelda's F- and U-Smashes are, IMO, an awesome replacement for ZSS' D-smash effect. It'll hold the enemy in place for a pretty good duration, during which you can, as stated above, enter a D-air. The one problem with this: spacing.

Spacing, spacing, spacing. As in wi-fi, Zelda in teams can be a beast. Problem is, it tends to become more of a FFA than teams if either one is careless.

We're going to need some Sheiks here, too, since the gal I played with leans heavily towards Sheik. She starts the game as Zelda, uses her hardest hitting moves quickly and when the opponent is far enough, or otherwise occupied, transforms into Sheik. Or would that be a separate character?

Edit: Is it possible to have Link's D-air and Zelda's U-air hit an opponent at the same time. That would be epic vertical knockback. Or would Link get caught in Zelda's U-air, too?

 

[Ryos4]

If you are spaced properly i think Link might be fine if the character is large enough. Seems like something that wouldn't be a good idea though. If your opponent air dodges or something you can both smack each other and possibly end up killing each other since Zelda's Uair is pretty strong and we all know Link's Dair kills.

About Shiek... I think it should be better left separate, easier to catalog. Though we can do her after if you want.

 

[Anonano]

I've done this team before too. It's actually a pretty decent team. Both are all about the big hits and both, when they hit, send an enemy flying and temporarily suspend the battle. Plus, Zelda has the awesome usmash and fsmash effect. This leaves plenty of time to act as a support and to actually move in and set some stuff up on smaller stages.
Further, Link and Zelda can actually be pretty destructive on stages like Battlefield. If both start swinging the big moves they can create some chaos between the opponents as they try to orient themselves in a way to not get hit by Zelda usmashes and Link dairs and fsmashes that can seem so rampant. This is one place where both can go aggro and actually achieve something. However, if one person messes up, then the momentum is displaced.
Both can support each other with kill moves, that's for sure. Even better, both's kill moves tend to lead into each other. Momentum is key in this team; I'd say it's a 6-7 rating.

 

[Ryos4]

Planning on moving on to Sheik i guess. Any more last minuet thoughts?

 

[quirkynature]

Planning on moving on to Sheik i guess. Any more last minuet thoughts?

One question, actually. How likely is it that, during a high tier match, a Zelda (assume mastery of Sheik, too) will switch? Or, more specifically, on smaller stages, like Battlefield and the like, her transformation will be interrupted during the first few frames where invincibility isn't a factor?

 

[Ryos4]

Isn't more likely that people go Sheik first to rack up damage then switch to Zelda for the kills? Also i think its more of a problem that she gets a huge attack in the face after she comes out of her transformation.

Anyway there is a possibility of doing it safely. After Zelda (and possibly Link) knock away their opponents fairly far. Zelda can go into a switch and Link can defend her, or at least help prevent a kill move from landing on Zelda/Sheik as she gets out of her transformation. I think it could easily be done with just some projectile harass while Zelda/Sheik is in her invincibility.

I think the likelihood of a transformation is purely based on the player and the opponents. If the opponents counter Zelda or Sheik really well, the Zelda/Sheik player might look for an opportunity to transform.

 

[Huggles828]

This seems like it could be a more complicated pairing because of Zelda being able to transform (Ha, I'm already dreading PT discussion for all the complication). One of Sheik's nice advantages is her ability to ftilt combo many characters, which is lost in teams. Honestly I know next to nothing about Sheik, but Sheik has a fighting chance against Meta Knight, right? Being able to at least hold her own against Meta Knight, one of the most common opponents you'll ever fight, has to be a huge advantage. Should this be taken into account when it comes to teams and transforming? Link and Zelda both fail pretty hard against Meta Knight, so I wonder if this would be helpful if you had to fight him in teams?

 

[Ryos4]

I don't know if Sheik does any better. She may be faster with a few strong hitting attacks. But Sheik is mainly for gimping with only like 3 strong killing moves. Uspecial, Fsmash, and Usmash (most likely Usmash. While Zelda on the other hand has Priority and disjointed hit boxes in her smashes. Not to mention a multitude of attacks that could kill meta a lot better then Sheik. F,B, and Uair along with all her smashes and Utilt.

I honestly think Zelda has more of an advantage over sheik in terms of Meta. Or rather less of a disadvantage.

 

[Huggles828]

Hmm. I'm not sure about teams (we always play with friendly fire off so my opinions in teams battles are fairly worthless) and I really don't know anything about Sheik, but Zelda has a ton of problems against MK one on one. Her projectile is pretty crappy 1v1, she needs to be perfectly spaced to use her aerials minus a fairly worthless nair against MK, her fsmash can be DI'd out of, she's just too slow to compete with MK anyway and her recovery, while decent distance-wise, is very dangerous, linear, and predictable, which makes MK drool over gimping possibilities almost as much as fighting Link. This might change in teams (Din's fire is pretty good in teams, her smashes are great for hitstun and setting up big attacks, etc.), but I just can't see two characters who both individually fail hard against MK succeeding in teams, not if MK has another teammate too.

Sorry I can't really be any more help; I dunno a whole lot about teams.

 

[Rizen]

One question, actually. How likely is it that, during a high tier match, a Zelda (assume mastery of Sheik, too) will switch? Or, more specifically, on smaller stages, like Battlefield and the like, her transformation will be interrupted during the first few frames where invincibility isn't a factor?

Most people stay with one or the other. I guess like 1vs1s Zelda/Sheik shouldn't swap unless she's safe like after launching. I doubt they'd switch at all.
Edit:
I missed the last page.

I honestly think Zelda has more of an advantage over sheik in terms of Meta. Or rather less of a disadvantage.

I've teamed with Sheik but not Zelda. Sheik's better in 1vs1s but Zelda seems better for teams. Sheik+Link don't work together well.

 

[Ryos4]

Alrighty lets move on to Sheik.

 

[Rizen]

Sheik's job is to move around creating chaos, to save Link from being chained (1 ground needle can work well for this), quickly patrol the air, avoid Link's attacks, and maybe Ftilt an opponent in place for a team combo.
Link should go for KOs in the confusion left by sheik, be the powerhouse, avoid edges as always.

Because Sheik needs to move for this to be effective and both characters have different styles of range attacks, I suggest medium-large stages with platforms, Picto, Halberd, etc but it depends on the opponent.
Hypothetically, if the partners were well organized and Link effectively used the openings Sheik made and Sheik gave Link the room he needs and was quick to move and save him this might be a good team. I've never planned that well and the characters often get in each other's way.

Spamming- one player should jump/SH while the other ground spams. Sheik's needles, even uncharged, pierce, have good range and stun, this could be comboed from.

If Sheik needs to KO there's DAC (aka DACUS) and Fair. When Link needs quick weak supporting attacks he can jab, dash attack, Zair, Nair, Bair.

With any match remember Link has 2 fast KOing moves with less lag than most: Dsmash
Frame 6: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration.
Frame 15: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration.
Frame 50: End of animation.
and Utilt
Frame 7: Hitbox out: 9 damage.
Frame 12: end of hitbox.
Frame 35: IASA

 

[Ryos4]

It seems like we are never going to get much input from other character mains. Its interesting that no one really wants to bother to consider how well Link will work as a partner. Its understandable that he isn't the greatest partner to have with any character, but i really don't see why people wont bother to discuss him. So it seems like its going to be up to us Link players to extract info from the other character boards to get anywhere.

Dekar's Guide
Sheik: DPS
Carry- 3
Stock Tank- 5 Really light and not the greatest recovery, but the chain can help sometimes.
Punisher- 6
DPS- 8 What sheik is all about.
Decent Offensive Support

Sheik is one of those characters heavily relies on stringing attacks together. Which in a doubles match, isn't that great of an idea. With another opponent running around, its not going to be safe to combo people as support is not so far away. So basically its going to be up to Link to try an manage to keep other opponents busy as Sheik goes to work.

As for team work, i doubt there's any real way Link or Sheik can really save each other. Link has his bombs, but Sheik doesn't really have anything that wouldn't put her in danger of dying herself. As usual Link can provide projectile stuns for Sheik to pull off some crazy stuff, but then again Sheik doesn't have many strong moves for finishers, aside from her Up B vanish and Usmash (DAC). Dac might actually end up killing Link as well if Sheik isn't careful. Also the same for Link, but with any of his stronger moves, seeing as how light Sheik is. Sheik has the ability to crawl which could allow Link to spam a little more. Sheiks needles are really good stun, even with only 1. Also many of Sheiks attacks are very good at juggling, which might also make openings. Leaving it up to look to go in for a big attack for kills. However, communication is important so Sheik doesn't die in the process. Being as fast as Sheik is, she can probably baby sit Link from a great distance, that doesn't even count Needles.

Stages: Probably larger stages to allow Link and Sheik to be a little more separate so Sheik wont have to worry about dying from Link. That is unless Sheik can manage to weave in and out of Links attacks.

 

[Ryos4]

Well there doesn't seem to be any more discussion with Sheik. I would have to say that with Shiek's inability to really help Link off stage and overall light and easily to accidentally kill. Also Sheiks only reliable kill moves have some large hit boxes and may cause problems. Sheik doesn't really help Link remove any of his sever weaknesses, and has no capability to really support Link aside from breaking apart Link from opponents who just man handle him.

Though the same is true that Link really would benefit from a good DPS partner. Being that since Sheik can rack up damage pretty quickly, it could work well with Link being a good finisher. Also if Sheik can some how handle being between 2 opponents while Link supports with a volley of projectiles and not hit her. It might be able to work. It will probably take lots of work and serious communication to get anywhere with these 2.

I would probably rate this around Ganon level. like 2-3, maybe 2-4. Not as bad as Ganon since Since Sheik does help with some of Link's bad matchups, but overall i cant see this team working too well.

Though i could be completely off seeing as there was NO input from any Sheik players, and a total of 3 posts, 2 of which are mine... just sad. I have also never even seen Sheik work in a team battle before. For all i know Sheik might be exactly what Link needs, though doubtful.

 

[Rizen]

Sheik's job is to move around creating chaos, to save Link from being chained (1 ground needle can work well for this), quickly patrol the air, avoid Link's attacks,

Hypothetically, if the partners were well organized and Link effectively used the openings Sheik made and Sheik gave Link the room he needs and was quick to move and save him this might be a good team. I've never planned that well and the characters often get in each other's way.

Shiek's significantly better than Ganon for these^ reasons. Teaming Link and Ganon is so bad that even a crummy Link+Sheik team's better.

Sheik doesn't really help Link remove any of his sever weaknesses, and has no capability to really support Link aside from breaking apart Link from opponents who just man handle him.

Needles are Sheik's big helper trump card. The weakness Sheik nullifies is Link's difficulty landing hits. This should be focused on.
1-10, if Ganon+Link's .5, Sheik+Link's 2 or 3. As everyone in the discussion stated, both players would have to work together extremely well for this team to have a chance.

 

[Ryos4]

I was thinking about narrowing down the ratings. I might do that tomorrow.

 

[Ryos4]

Another double post...

Well i figure Sheik is kind of an empty subject to this board and we can come back to her later if needed, but i figure we move on. Any suggestions?

I suggest we move on to Fox since the Fox players are always stopping by for the match ups.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

As for team work, i doubt there's any real way Link or Sheik can really save each other. Link has his bombs, but Sheik doesn't really have anything that wouldn't put her in danger of dying herself.

Needles go in a 45 degree angle downward. So they'll save Link if the Sheik player knows what they're doing.

Unless you're fighting a team of Fox and Fox, I'd suggest just get the Sheik player to use Zelda. Even if they don't know how to use her. lol

Sheik requires a lot of space for her to effectively chase and hit her opponents. Link will only get in her way and vice versa. I don't see this team working very well.

 

[Ryos4]

Well since on of the fox players started the discussion in the other thread, might as well make it official.

Moving on to Fox

Fox: DPS Punish
Carry- 5
Stock Tank- 4
Punisher- 8
DPS- 8
Decent Offensive Support
Minor Interference Issues
Energy Projectile (DPS)

Hmmm Fox+Link? I know we can cover for you lack of speed in certain situtations, but wouldn't the projectiles get in the way sometimes? Fox's Nair not only combos into his Usmash but in teams Fox's Nair sets up a lot of 2v1 action. Fox Nair>Link Ftilt, Fox Nair>Link Utilt. Fox's punishing game increases in 2v2s and weaknesses disappear because he has a partner to stop any gayness know as shiek or pika.

 

[Scabe]

Roles
I think Link and Fox would do pretty well with each other. Fox has the kill moves and Link has the stock tanking, they both have damage racking options.

General Tips
I think Fox would make a good team mate because of his incredible speed. He can come from far away and hit the opponent with an Upsmash while they're fighting Link.

He's got a reflector to reflect back Link's projectiles just in case they ever get in his way. Which they shouldn't

I think the Minor Interference Issue from how Fox is everywhere on the field with his speed. Combine this with Link's Large interference issues from his projectile game makes things hard to deal with.

Stage Picks
Both Link and Fox both have some good vertical killers so stages like Halberd might do well.

Ranking
I've only tried this team a few times, so all this is just me theory crafting. I think I give this team a 6.

Team Work Strategies
I think this team works best when they're 1v1 the opponent. I reckon Fox's down throw could Link to Link's Dair.

 

[Ryos4]

I like the way you think.

I do agree with Foxes Dthrow has some pretty constant knock back. Also if Link ever gets a Jab lock in, even if its only 1 or 2 hits. Fox can easily just Usmash them to death. Its also nice to note that Fox can help jab locks with his FF Nair Lock incase Link wants to charge up some super attack while Fox locks them. Though i think they are just better off using Fox as the killer.

Also does anyone know if theres any really useful info in the fox match up thread?

 

[Huggles828]

I'd think Link teams up well with small, speedy characters, and Fox fits the bill. Most of Link's kill power comes from getting damage pretty quickly and being able to kill a multitude of ways once opponents have taken lots of damage whereas Fox just kills early with that brutal usmash, and other solid kill moves in utilt, fsmash, dsmash, bair, and some nice damage racking. Link is probably gonna be the tank, since he can live forever if not gimped, and Fox is fast enough I bet he can interrupt many gimping attempts.

Again, I know nothing about 2v2's so this is all just theorycraft too.

Ryos, when you say the Fox matchup thread, do you mean our 1v1 thread for Fox? Because I think you posted the response we got from the Fox mains about the team, and I don't think there was any more.

 

[Ryos4]

I meant anything about fox that was presented in the match up thread that might be useful to know if your teamed up with him. About the 1v1. But i guess i can go look now.


Edit: yeah nothing too useful in terms of teams.

But what i did say earlier about Fox's ledge. I couldnt find the video with fox but i found one with falco which is basically the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxicKrbeud8&feature=related

It can be happen at any time during the animation of illusion. It gives fox his second jump where he can do some serious mind games. It can also be done over and over if you have good timing.

Anyway it might have some uses in a team battle. Somehow...

 

[Scabe]

What's up with the title anyways? "Follow In Your Father's Example"

 

[Ryos4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpQmrAloD8

Never played starfox 64?

 

[Ryos4]

Anymore discussion on Fox? Seems to have gone over a lot better then the last 2.

I like a lot of discussion of Fox so far. He does seem like a decent teammate. Makes up for Link in his lack of speed, and with Link around Fox doesn't have to fear chain grabs as much. But that could be said about anyone teaming with Fox that has either speed or projectiles. Foxes reflector can protect him against some projectiles.

I had a thought about a team effort with Fox and Link from the Fox match up. Someone said to never throw a rang at fox while you recover because it can screw you. Which technically could be a really good gimp move to combine without any real effort. Link tosses a rang at Fox>Fox reflects>Link Shields or dodges the return> Link hops on the ledge and prepares the Zair Edge guard. The rang keeps going possibly gimping those with lesser or crappy horizontal recoveries and if they can still make it, the ultimate edge hog is still waiting for them. Someone should test the possibility of that.

I have a feeling both of these characters would have some huge trouble against a team of chain grabbers or just MK. If both of them get caught by chain grabbers at the same time, neither of them can help each other. Like a Falco and Pika team might actually spell the end of this possible combination. Falco could possibly chain grab to spike Link, overall just keep him busy while Pike just ***** Fox.

Also any suggestions or wants for the next team discussion? Possibilities are possibly to continue with the bottom up with Jiggly Puff. Move on to someone who we think would be a good partner. Move on to a character that some of us also frequent. Or lastly be completely random, which i always enjoy.

 

[Scabe]

I'd like to talk about Samus, since hopefully this weekend I'll be teaming up with a Samus player! Xyro knows a thing or two since I think he's teamed up with Legan.

 

[Ryos4]

Well sounds good lets move on to Samus

 

[Scabe]

Wow Samus has some massive guns. She must be working hard at the gym.

I'm pretty sure I've teamed up with Samus a few times. Her spam and our spam can sorta get in the way but imagine if the two were on both sides of the stage spamming the opponents in the middle with projectiles and their Zairs. So first thing is to learn how both characters spam and then work ways around that.

Also nice update in the OP with the videos. It's amazing. I sent an invite to the Samus boards I hope they're a cool bunch and come by

 

[Ryos4]

It didnt really take much effort aside from reorganizing. Stole a bunch from AiB and from other threads here. Anyway see if we can keep the video thread updated so i dont have to look for them on youtube blindly.

Anyway i think Samus and Link could do some interesting stuff.
Everyone knows by now. Dekar stuff.
Samus: Tank DPS (projectile)
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 4
DPS- 6
Decent Offensive Support
Good Defensive Support
Minor Interference Issues
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

I think this team would greatly benefit from platforms. To allow Link and Samus to run around and spam without really getting into each others space too often. Link would be better on the platform while Samus be below it. It does cause a little mix up when they switch up to have Samus roaming the skies and Link claiming the ground. But with platforms Link doesn't do too bad.

Interesting combo possibilities for this team. I noticed that many people DI up from Links Bthrow. So how about Link's Bthrow>Samus Dair for kills. Pitch ur opponents to Samus and she can finish them off. I would also suggest leaving the edge guarding to Samus with her spikes, aerial awesomeness, and all the little tricks Samus does to get spikes. Though every once in a while Link has to step in to allow Samus the time to charge her Charge Shot.

Another possibility is to abuse Samus' long zair. Put Link in front and have Samus zair from behind. Link can either power shield or spot dodge it and follow up on the hit stun. I also wanted to make use of projectile redirection that shielding them sometimes causes. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to hit someone with a vertically shot Charge shot. Especially against Snake.

 

[ZeroL]

Hmhm, I'd say Samus and Link in teams is an average team. I've played some teams with Samus and Link at my latest smashfest this weekend, so I'll tell you how I play it.

First of all, Samus needs some space. If we can use our z-air correctly to keep the opponent away then the Link can get beasting on the other opponent. Samus' camping game is limited in teams because of the risk of hitting your teampartner. But that doesn't mean we can't play correctly, if the Samus and Link know each other well they can outplay allot of teams simply by seperating them and helping each other out when needed. I watch my teampartner for 50% for when I need to help them out, I watch my opponents 20% each and I only look at my Samus when I get hit, I know what I'm doing when I do it.

Roles (Carry, Stock Tank, DPS, Punish, and Support)
Link should play the Stock Tank, his DI is way better then Samus'. Samus should be the DPS role, her damage racking is amazingly fast.

Stage Picks
A large stage would work great for this, Final Destination or Delfino Plaza or the best.

Team Work Strategies
Seperating the opponents and killing them one by one and helping each other when it's needed. Link's bomb are great for stopping the opponents in their tracks, it's the same with Samus' z-air. Link does need to do all the killing, since Samus kill power is horrible.

General Tips
Play safe! Don't do any risky stuff, good players will ALWAYS punish you for risky stuff that didn't work.

Ranking
I'd say a 6.

Special Notes
Enjoy the matches. Once you enjoy your matches you play much better, it's all about having fun.

 

[Ryos4]

Thanks for the input.

Based on your nice post. Seems like a solid possibility. Though i have to wonder. What happens if you run into a team that are both fast characters that can get into range easier. Like idk Fox, CF, Sheik, or Sonic.

Would this team in theory be able to hold off 2 fast opponents? Or does Samus have some way of dealing with opponents at close range that is atleast somewhat effect?

Link+TL is similar to Link+Samus. Lots of projectile interference possible. Both teams are capabable of having multi stock tanks depending on situations. Similar DPS capabilities, and finishers. With TL+Link rated as 5 so far (might change later depending on the rest of the cast). So my question is Samus better then TL as a partner.

I would think with TLs higher speed and kill potential, still retaining some good DPS and tanking options similar to that of Samus. Though Samus has a really good off stage spiking game and gimping, while TL is more about out right killing opponents. Though Samus is able to do long combos and hold people in place using low knock back aerials and low knock back homing missles allowing Link to go for kills easier then in a TL+Link.

In terms of match ups (based on what i saw on smash wiki). Link does a little better then Samus in theupper tiers, Samuse on the other hand works better on the lower tiers.

I dont think i would go as high as 6 for this team. Maybe 4-5

 

[Xyro77]

I'd like to talk about Samus, since hopefully this weekend I'll be teaming up with a Samus player! Xyro knows a thing or two since I think he's teamed up with Legan.

Ah yes, teaming with legan. Let me start off by saying that teaming with him STILL holds the record for the most fun ive ever had in teams. I recommend that ALL samus players team with a link at least once in LOW TIER TEAMS(not regular).





What stages does samus do well on?

Im not too sure what link likes in his stages other than Halberd/delfino/brinstar(all of these u can kill early) but i am here to tell you that samus is good on those stages as well so fear not when u ask the samus player if those stages are ok. The only stage i recommend you dont make samus play on is YI(i dont know a single samus that LOVES that stage). Other than that im 100% positive that samus does well on every stage link does.

PERSONAL OPINION: When i team with someone, i allow THEM to pick the stage in nearly every case. I feel that if i give my partner(link in this case) the stage advantage then i wont have to worry about him as much. I of course, can adapt to any stage but YI so i dont really care what stage is chosen as long as HE is feeling good about it.



What role does Samus play in teams?

Samus is famous for not being able to kill.....accept it. However, she is a BEAST at racking up damage. Link cant really rack up damage but he can kill much better than samus can. THAT is what you need to realize before you go into your first match. Let samus build damage and then switch off so that link can come in and kill. When i teamed with legan that exactly what happened and i didnt even know it till later on. He would land kill moves left and right cause i built up so much damage. I also believe that samus should also play the role of "savior" and when i say this i MEAN IT. If link is not going to make it back to the stage samus can fire off a lock-on missle to hit link so he gets hi UP+B back or samus can just run off and up+B link back to the stage. It does damage but has next to ZERO horizontal knockback so link will be going straight up. One last thing, SAMUS should be the "tank" of the team. Believe it or not, samus is like 7th heaviest in the game so combine that with good DI and she will live forever. i say she needs to be the tank because LINK is the killing machine of the team and if he can take one of your stocks that means u gave up a stock so that he can kill MORE...GOOD MOVE!

PERSONAL OPINION: Samus should stay near the ledge while link should take up the middle. I say this because link is SAFE-EST when he doesnt have to worry about being gimped and Samus is at her best when she plays off the ledge and she is BY FAR one of the best gimpers in the game.




Regular Teams vs Low Tier Teams

I wont lie to you, in this day and age, Samus and Link are HORRIBLE for regular teams. This games focus in regular teams is on wario/gw/snake/mk/ddd/lucario and ALL of those character have an auto-advantage on samus/link then combine that with the fact they are better than samus/link at everything they excel at. You literally have to be 3x as smart as the foe and the foe must have next to no exp vs link or samus. IF that happens, your chances are decent. now as for LOW TIER(f and g tier only), i really think link and samus are a top 4 team. Thier strengths(i told u about it above) literally dwarf MOST teams in LT.




Team Combos

These combos guarantee death after 100% or give obscene damage to the foe if they are below 100%. The key to team combos. Get as much damage in as u can without taking alot of time.


Samus SPIKE to Link jab-lock to Link SMASH(Dsmash of Fsmash) or Dair.
Grab(pummel) or grab release with samus and have link Dair it.
Grab(pummel) or grab release with link and have samus FULLY CS(charge shot does 26%).

 

[PK-ow!]

Samus has nothing for close players. She does not want to be there except with large frame advantage. Her jab has no hitstun, remember, so all she's got is trading on an attack (if she even can), or being ballsy and predicting the opponent is going to move.

She uses missiles with intent, and annoys with safe moves that space, to try and create a trap for the opponent. In some matchups, she plays vertical spacing games, but doubs makes that **** way harder. Her throw is friggin risky, but if you forget about it, it'll get you, and her throws are good. Sadly, they're a bit slow, so with two opponents, Samus' is strainin' to work on shield. What she can do is make people shield, for Link to follow up.

The spam needs to be settled between the players. I don't think both chars can have a projectile out at the same time, when they're playing beside each other. Either one's projectiles are as good at "setups" as it were in their 1v1 game, but I think Link is the one who's going to want to rein it in. Link should use them in his own little space defensively, sure... but Samus' missiles should be what both chars are chasing.
It's a matter of the players understanding each other, I think.


Samus has tools that make the usual options not work on her. But they have their own answers. Zair, isn't really a way for Samus to fight except against the janky characters that can't run through it with one guess. So here, it's going to take some understanding from the Link about just what situations Samus wants to see or doesn't want to see.

Also, Samus is a tank. I mean think about it. She'd probably qualify in military terms as a tank if she participated in Earth warfare. :D No really, Samus has no excuse for early deaths. She may be so jank she doesn't deal more than 50% damage in the time before she loses a stock in a high level match sometimes, but she stretches out that stock.
Link can't capitalize, though. I mean, basically it gives Link 5 stocks, is the ideal. But it's Link, he dies at 40. :\

HOWEVER it should mean you guys can take more risks with friendly fire. You're probably the heaviest fighters by far if there's no Wario. Samus lives in every direction, Link can't be star KO'd. So I say if one of you sees the other and an opportunity, land some damage or even a smash. Statistically, you should see a better ratio of deaths, am I wrong?


The best I see with this team is taking lots of risks, drowning the opponents in hitbubbles they feel dumb not being able to avoid, and Link knocking enemies into Samus spikes or Link smashing peeps out of Samus garbage. EDIT: With fresh smashes, I mean. Link's got no reason to Fsmash except to **** people who are freezing up; his ftilt will do.

Also their combos are beautiful.

 

[Rizen]

Im not too sure what link likes in his stages other than Halberd/delfino/brinstar(all of these u can kill early) but i am here to tell you that samus is good on those stages as well so fear not when u ask the samus player if those stages are ok. The only stage i recommend you dont make samus play on is YI(i dont know a single samus that LOVES that stage). Other than that im 100% positive that samus does well on every stage link does.

On Halberd if we out-camp, we could seriously out-camp. Samus likes Brinstar, good to know. I don't like Delfino, several MUs are evil there but that's just me.

PERSONAL OPINION: Samus should stay near the ledge while link should take up the middle. I say this because link is SAFE-EST when he doesnt have to worry about being gimped and Samus is at her best when she plays off the ledge and she is BY FAR one of the best gimpers in the game.

We agree.

I wont lie to you, in this day and age, Samus and Link are HORRIBLE for regular teams. This games focus in regular teams is on wario/gw/snake/mk/ddd/lucario and ALL of those character have an auto-advantage on samus/link then combine that with the fact they are better than samus/link at everything they excel at. You literally have to be 3x as smart as the foe and the foe must have next to no exp vs link or samus.

too true.


I've almost no Samus exp. When Samus is damage racking should Link defend her by keeping the other opponent away? Link can be a real pain to approach and hold his ground with projectiles/Zair/jabs. Basically, should Link be campy then switch to KOing after Samus softens them up?

edit: 'missed the last post:

HOWEVER it should mean you guys can take more risks with friendly fire. You're probably the heaviest fighters by far if there's no Wario. Samus lives in every direction, Link can't be star KO'd. So I say if one of you sees the other and an opportunity, land some damage or even a smash. Statistically, you should see a better ratio of deaths, am I wrong?

Adding to this, for the Link players; Link has great anti-range tactics. Any standard attack stops missiles as long as Link himself isn't hit. Nair or Bair from one side of the stage protects against missiles from the other. Dair bounces charged beam shots- this could be a safe tactic to land either Dair or a charged shot without risk of friendly fire; if the opponent dodges the beam Link can Dair bounce it unharmed.

Both characters can cancel airdodges with Zair and have good landing canceling moves. With Zair either character can edge hog or wait on the edge for their partner too distract waiting opponents.

@Samus mains: Thanks for the help.