dudutsai
Smash Lord
Stop arguing kids. We're in the process of making the initial list. If you want to talk **** to each other then just settle it with a MM.
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MA Power Rankings (melee)/General Discussion
- Thread starter Roman.
- Start date
But some one who got 2nd didn't get 2nd by beating EVERYONE in sets EXCEPT for the person who got first.
I could go on a tangent about probability and how if you get an unlucky bracket one day you could get a lucky bracket the next (i've placed above roman, I know how it goes) but that's STILL not conducive to a ranking system. We took out items because of...luck. So why rank players in a region with luck being a factor?
besides swiss format, we need to do more then 1 (I'm not sure how many we'd need to do, it honestly depends on how many peeps we got) to test consistency.
We also must run some simple tests to see who is the most worthy of the numba one spot. First we should test absorbency. Then we must test the electrical conductivity of everyone. THEN, the final test is a beaver and a toy car.
Getting number two in a bracket is NEVER done by saying oh look that guy had a **** ton of lucky brackets >_>
And it's also never done by beating everyone else who entered except for first place >_>
Almo
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
- Messages
- 812
also, this is why beating people matters more than placing. dazwa pretty much tells us brawl kids we're dumb on our PR's because one ranking period placings took way too much weight in the list.
if you beat people that consistently do well, it should matter more than having some easy bracket to get a good placing, or even a better placing than someone else.
i think the whole 2nd and 4th / 65th and 129th argument is that with 65th and 129th, that early in a bracket, there are way too many variables to even calculate the skill of those 2 players with having many people place that low, as well as not playing many people. with 2nd and 4th, you would at least encounter possibly 1 or 2 people that you both played, and that far into the bracket would most likely play other people of equal skill, and possibly even each other, thus making that placing more of a factor when comparing the two players.
unless this was already agreed upon and i'm just echoing other people. :/
if you beat people that consistently do well, it should matter more than having some easy bracket to get a good placing, or even a better placing than someone else.
i think the whole 2nd and 4th / 65th and 129th argument is that with 65th and 129th, that early in a bracket, there are way too many variables to even calculate the skill of those 2 players with having many people place that low, as well as not playing many people. with 2nd and 4th, you would at least encounter possibly 1 or 2 people that you both played, and that far into the bracket would most likely play other people of equal skill, and possibly even each other, thus making that placing more of a factor when comparing the two players.
unless this was already agreed upon and i'm just echoing other people. :/
MattDotZeb
Smash Hero
A few weeks ago
Roman.
Smash Champion
that's why it's like impossible to have a 100% accurate PR so we're doing it with the (flawed) criteria to get it as close as possible
if anything, having it flawed is better because it gives hope to everyone to succeed and be higher on the list
if anything, having it flawed is better because it gives hope to everyone to succeed and be higher on the list
Zombie Lucille Ball
Smash Master
Is N64 seriously on the panel? Why?
dudutsai
Smash Lord
Because hes played people in MA quite a bit recently. Also because we need an odd amount of people since Zoso declined.
Nah, I'm going to start going to MA tourneys again.
Roman.
Smash Champion
so pumped
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Spife, I think most people agree that swiss is the best way to do rankings, but we can still consider other factors. Tournament placings really aren't as much of a factor as who someone won/lost to in tournament or in other serious matches.
Zombie Lucille Ball
Smash Master
omg boners
I just think if you're going to build a house, waiting to acquire the proper materials is a much better way to go about things then using materials of lesser quality, like sand or mud.
So if we're going to use swiss results, why are we making a PR now without them?
Reading comp for the fail.
I'm not saying we use swiss and only swiss either, but I feel like we're missing valuable data to complete this. It's like deciding to make a combo video with little to no combos, so you create the opening, lay down the song you want and then make the credits.
Spife, what are you even saying?
Yedi I'm saying that we don't have the proper data to fullfil a PR request, and we wont till we have results from a few swiss format events. Until then, all we're doing is building a ****ty house or laying down a foundation, neither of which I want to live in.
If you enter tournaments, then clearly you are trusting that the double bracket system is an accurate enough way for the tournament to be run that will determine the skill level of the particpants. If you didn't agree to some extent, then there would be no reason to give tournaments your money.
Don't act like this bracket system is not at all accurate and every single tournament run this way shouldn't be used at all in detemining how good players are. Cuz that's just stupid.
but it's mostly being based on who beats who. And if you wanna get pissy about it, you can just call it a ranking for determining how well individuals in MA would do in a double-bracketed tournament. Which is basically what it is anyways.
Don't act like this bracket system is not at all accurate and every single tournament run this way shouldn't be used at all in detemining how good players are. Cuz that's just stupid.
but it's mostly being based on who beats who. And if you wanna get pissy about it, you can just call it a ranking for determining how well individuals in MA would do in a double-bracketed tournament. Which is basically what it is anyways.
Argument is bunk. You're assuming that I have a choice on tournament styles to enter. If I could enter swiss format I would Yedi.
Now you're saying "well then spife just don't even enter tournaments". I still want to compete gais, even if brackets are dumb.
Wow. So I was trying to figure out how to make my case without sounding like a petty pompous jack ***. Dunno if I succeeded.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263507
I placed 25th, got instant-loser'ed by N64. Then went on to beat 2 people in losers. A player by the name of Aznstorm got two byes, beat one person (in losers), and placed higher then me. Why does winning 1 set place some one higher then winning 2? Although bull **** bracket issues get weeded out the higher in bracket you get so I can see your original point (about some one who placed 2nd compared to 4th is a lot more valuable then last place). Still doesn't change the fact that second place didn't beat everyone else but first place in a set to get there.
But no you're right, brackets are the best way for indicating skill. Your argument has used examples and is infallible.
inb4 spife you'd have an easier bracket if you didn't suck so much.
Now you're saying "well then spife just don't even enter tournaments". I still want to compete gais, even if brackets are dumb.
Wow. So I was trying to figure out how to make my case without sounding like a petty pompous jack ***. Dunno if I succeeded.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263507
I placed 25th, got instant-loser'ed by N64. Then went on to beat 2 people in losers. A player by the name of Aznstorm got two byes, beat one person (in losers), and placed higher then me. Why does winning 1 set place some one higher then winning 2? Although bull **** bracket issues get weeded out the higher in bracket you get so I can see your original point (about some one who placed 2nd compared to 4th is a lot more valuable then last place). Still doesn't change the fact that second place didn't beat everyone else but first place in a set to get there.
But no you're right, brackets are the best way for indicating skill. Your argument has used examples and is infallible.
inb4 spife you'd have an easier bracket if you didn't suck so much.
All I hear from you Morgan are bracket johns lol 
Clearly I'm not saying that brackets are the best way for determining skill. Swiss brackets are better. My argument is simply, that if yur ok with a double bracket system determining placements[which is evdident since you enter these tournaments" then you should be ok with a ranking system based on the format of competition we use in smash
which is a double bracketed format.
also, multiple tournaments are taken into account when making a ranking. So even if yu did get bracket ****ed one tourney or two, it shouldn't be that detrimental to your ranking.
which is a double bracketed format.
also, multiple tournaments are taken into account when making a ranking. So even if yu did get bracket ****ed one tourney or two, it shouldn't be that detrimental to your ranking.
^^this
pishaw. I'd stop johning if I got half as many byes as everyone elseAll I hear from you Morgan are bracket johns lol
inb4 spife stop sucking
Anyway, I'll stop arguing cause yedi drilled it into my head.
"we are making a ranking of ma players on how well they do/they will do in tournies, based on how well they do in tournies"
Oh wow and totally on topic of fail brackets. Syracuse should be omitted only because some one placed even with me and didn't win a single set. Judo, got a bye lost to Minh. Got a bye lost to Rykard.
I've now realized my war is against byes not brackets
Zombie Lucille Ball
Smash Master
Mass Madness was always the worst with byes I think I got like 5 once
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
nope, only bromo.
also can i hitch a ride with you to MILK? if you're going the night before than that's no good for me though.
guys i'm going to a MA melee tournament next weekend, let me play all of you and I will be panel, k? k.
Pretty much. If you didn't place in t3, the number next to your name is usually irrelevant in power rankings, and the people you beat along the way are a much more important factor.
think darc shudd be a panelist over n64, but w/es. not really sure who n64 has played with from Mass recently
dudutsai
Smash Lord
Adding Darc and Dazwa to the panelist to keep the number odd. N64 has played a handful of MA people recently, and it would be rude to kick him out after making him join.
Zombie Lucille Ball
Smash Master
who made him join lol
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
he went to Flaco's smashfest. i didn't get to play him but he @ least saw my M2 I think... lol
what up?
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I would say that Saturday was the worst I've felt playing in a long time. But that happens to everyone.
The only reason I would put me over Roman is tournament wise. I could be wrong but I think reently I've beat or outplaced you at every tournament we both attended starting around RoM2.
The only reason I would put me over Roman is tournament wise. I could be wrong but I think reently I've beat or outplaced you at every tournament we both attended starting around RoM2.
Roman.
Smash Champion
what tournaments have we attended since rom2?
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I've actually reviewed it. We've actually placed comparably for most tournaments with you entering way more tournaments than I have. So I'll eat my words.
I want to say you have the slight edge in placings as well but I can't be definite. Maybe if you could beat Sai LOL (joke prz).
In terms of actually playing each other in a tournament, I remember you beat me at a Mass Madness (not the last one) and the first time I went Fox in that round robin thing at the Mass Madness venue but wasn't really a tourney (but ill count it). Since then I believe I've won the last 2-3 head to head matchups.
But I'll give you + cause you can beat Donkey Kongs.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I thought I beat your fox, you beat Roman, and Roman beat me at that round robin, but I don't remember if that was in the last 6 months.
Banks
Smash Hero
y halo thar
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
OH LOL yeah I think that's what happened. Wewt for my first Fox tourney.
Which begs the question, how do we decide which players are worth beating other than by our personal evaluations of their skill?
Minor point, but "swiss brackets" is a misnomer.
Every swiss tournament I've ever been to runs swiss for like 4-5 rounds then seeds the top 8/16/some power of 2 in a bracket, which can be either double elimination or single elimination, depending on preference and the amount of time available.
So, suppose you go undefeated in 4 rounds of swiss and 3 rounds of single elimination, compared to 6 rounds + grand finals in a properly seeded 64-man bracket... That's the same number of matches either way. Even if we assume a 32-man bracket, which is closer to the norm in this region, that's still 6 rounds needed to win, assuming you go undefeated. Why exactly is swiss being touted as the be-all and the end-all?
If we REALLY wanted to be as accurate as possible, we would be doing round robin for every tournament, but we all know that that's just not possible.
Point being, the flaws of double elimination are well known, but that doesn't mean that the results derived therefrom are COMPLETELY meaningless.
Also, I'm lol'ing because I've been wondering for ages why nobody runs swiss anymore.
I still think the best way to do this would be to have every MA player participate in a ranbat at the next tourney we all attend.
EDIT: I don't think the results of the ranbat should be the ONLY consideration, but it's a good place to start.