Marth Matchup. Help!

[Corigames]

Jungle Japes imo
Just practice grappling those tiny tiny ittsy bittsy teeny weeny ledges, and don't get clap trapped.

 

[Pi]

i like kongo jungle 64

but the mbr seems to think it's too imba in like a couple of matchups so they're gonna remove it entirely even though that **** has hardly ever been a problem and gets fixed if ganons players would just use their ban better

 

[Corigames]

Then why bother mentioning it? If you are going to go that far, I might as well state that I like Big Blue for the Marth MU since it makes his tippers harder to land, the falling and rising causes the weight shift to mess up his combos, the lack of Dair spiking, and the music make it a great level for Samus against him. It's banned, but I think it would work.

 

[BairJew]

Jungle Japes imo
Just practice grappling those tiny tiny ittsy bittsy teeny weeny ledges, and don't get clap trapped.

This definitely seems like a great CP for samus vs marth due to lack of platforms for marth lol and I know this seems pretty odd but would RC be a good CP for samus?

 

[Corigames]

RC for Marth? I don't think so. What did you have in mind as an advantage to list?
As for Japes, the main reason is the fat that low recoveries are EXTREMELY risky. They are hard to sweet spot, the water messes up timing/causes panic, and clap traps will nomomnom stocks. Additionally, the ceiling is pretty high, so dieing off the top from a Utilt probably won't happen. The biggest problem is that if he takes the first stock, he can use the life advantage to camp the far right ledge and stay relatively safe from the negatives facing this level. It's hard to approach someone controlling those outer platforms without getting hit or allowing them an escape route.

 

[BairJew]

^ I was just kind of curious about RC in general I wasn't sure if many characters had advantages on this stage and was wondering if it was as bad for Marth as it is for some of the other characters. I know it has small walls which would probably make it bad, fox probably ***** onRC due to low ceilings but I was wondering if it was possible to create nifty samus tricks that go with RC lol however in my mind it is quite doubtful

 

[Corigames]

The only thing I see beneficial about RC is the fact that it has small platforms, few ledges, and the stage moves around. I've benefited from it in the Ganon MU due to his slowness and the Luigi matchup due to the small platforms. I hypothesize that it is good against ICs since getting grabbed might not be instant death since they can't hang on to you forever without dieing with you.

In general I don't think it's that great of a CP, and especially so in the Marth MU,

 

[McNinja]

So, I have formulated the greatest strategy in fighting the marth mu. Switch to a different character.

 

[MonkUnit]

Man up and overcome the marth matchup instead.

 

[Corigames]

Man up and overcome the marth matchup instead.

Woman up, drop some balls... bombs, penetrate his shield... pressure his shield, and... oh nevermind.

 

[BairJew]

Then seduce marth and lock him in the motel room for a week problem solved. Oh wait never mind I forget marth kinda bats..err slices for the other team sooo basically you'll want to follow the advice above.

 

[Pi]

@corey
KJ64 is legal right now, and will be through apex, but after who knows
the MBR is currently trying to make the only legal stages to be played on: FD, BF, DL, YS, FoD & PS (as a cp)

I like KJ64 because he can't juggle you.

 

[Corigames]

I know it is. Taj and Tai and a lot of AZ were upset about ruling. Lots of AZers have pretty good Marths that they can pull out, and this counterpick at least forces them to play a different character (probably Falco or Fox) which you may have a better chance with. Marth just gets his recovery so gimped by not being able to sweet spot due to the low level, water, and clap trap elements. You have to play a great D game though, or you'll be pushed around; you don't want him to get a low % gimp dair on one of the inner holes. Stay grounded and push out from the ride side of the stage to the left. When you die, come back and use the invincibility to maintain this position while he can't stop you. If he camps, fill up/bait with charge shots, unload them, and spam missiles at him like a ***** until he either starts messing up and taking hits or comes to approach YOU, forced to by air attack. His options are extremely limited while you can still do anything, that gives you an obvious advantage.
A) Get position
B) Force the approach
C) Repel assault
D) Advance positioning if possible, if not, return to B
Practice grappling to the edge from far away... and stuff... maybe...

 

[Pi]

 

[MonkUnit]

Could someone do something like the picture above but for the stages in the MBR stage list and show which port is the optimal one per stage? If not, I can do that.

 

[Pi]

i did that and posted it a awhile ago...here u go

Spoiler

 

[MonkUnit]

Ah, right. I forgot you did those a while ago. Thanks.

 

[Pluplue]

which color is which :o

 

[BairJew]

Why would KJ64 be good for samus? Wouldn't she get camped like crazy?

 

[Pi]

Why would KJ64 be good for samus? Wouldn't she get camped like crazy?

i was talking specifically about the marth matchup
idk about camping samus, she's not without projectiles and her UB is pretty quick

 

[bubbaking]

Jungle Japes imo
Just practice grappling those tiny tiny ittsy bittsy teeny weeny ledges, and don't get clap trapped.

Wait a sec...isn't Jungle Japes banned? O_o I just checked both the current and 2012 rulesets and Japes isn't anywhere... :/

Could someone do something like the picture above but for the stages in the MBR stage list and show which port is the optimal one per stage? If not, I can do that.

Ok, I know Pi just provided pics but I was actually really interested in seeing what the general opinion on the best positions/ports was.

Why would KJ64 be good for samus? Wouldn't she get camped like crazy?

I've used KJ64 in a tourney setting and imo, KJ64 is a fairly good Samus counterpick not only because of the extremely large blastzones. If need be, Samus can kind of camp and such, and not only onstage too. Samus can actually bomb jump to wait for that barrel on the bottom; it's almost impossible to miss. Those high platforms on the sides also allow her to recover back to the stage in more ways than one and Falco can't chase her there w/out commiting to both jumps. The fact that the stage is "transparent" (don't know what word to use) is also pretty helpful to Samus 'cause you could always jump/upB through the stage if neither the edge nor the high platforms are viable. The middle two platforms make upB a bit safer and that dip in the middle of the stage allows Samus to avoid lasers to an extent w/out jumping (although they kind of screw up her missiles too).

Replace "Falco" w/ "Marth".

i like KJ64 too and feel like the barrel almost if not does make up for her missing grapple beam
she can definitely abuse it more than other chars
also, people not being able to sweet spot is pretty good since her recovery isn't limited to having to grab the the ledge, and they often are

vs. marth especially i like it, because he can't juggle you on this stage

ur points seem pretty legit bubba

it'd be nice to have good CP's as samus that don't rely on us just 'living forever'

things that i think have potential, a lot of it:
shield dropping
wave bombing
pivot dsmash

 

[Corigames]

Wait a sec...isn't Jungle Japes banned? O_o I just checked both the current and 2012 rulesets and Japes isn't anywhere... :/

*Warning: self hatin*
Before the most recent DBR counterpick stage rule change, I wasn't aware that the counter-pick stages had changed at all since 08 since the topic/situation never came up. I didn't even know about the whole "go to the random select screen to turn off neutrals until you are left with one" thing until three-to-four months ago when I really started getting back in the game and went to my first tournament in years. It's why I'm reluctant to post in the video critique thread, why I haven't updated the Intro thread; I'm relearning things and I always end up second guessing my advice since it's crusty.
*
Yeah, it's banned : (

 

[bubbaking]

No worries. IMO, Japes is a great stage and might as well be reconsidered seeing as how the current stage list is (only) pro-spacee. (-_-')

 

[Smashjin]

No worries. IMO, Japes is a great stage and might as well be reconsidered seeing as how the current stage list is (only) pro-spacee. (-_-')

I hate Japes. I think it promotes camping a little and is a bit too janky with the water/klaptraps.

Also it's tough to say a stage favors spacies when it's matchup dependent. Also at least Corneria is gone, and some people would say Pokefloats was "pro-spacie".

 

[Pi]

pokefloats, rbc, poke stadium all favor spacies

 

[bubbaking]

Ain't it the truth. I think it's generally accepted that Poke Stadium is a strongly pro-Spacee stage because of all the ways they can simply control the stage. The positioning of the platforms, the general flatness of the stage, everything lets them be as aggressive, defensive, or even campy as they want to be. And when the stage changes, it can get worse. Once that tree pops up, you find yourself being infinite-shined, even if you're a char that doesn't normally get waveshined.

 

[BairJew]

pokefloats, rbc, poke stadium all favor spacies

^Straight truth. Why are all pro-floaty stages gone? (except: DL)

 

[McNinja]

Because Fox and Falco aren't OP enough.

 

[Pi]

cause that's not how melee is SUPPOSED to be played duh

everyone should just be 0-deathing each other and those who can't be 0-death'd are gay

 

[bubbaking]

^Straight truth. Why are all pro-floaty stages gone? (except: DL)

Funnily enough, DL can be quite generous to Spacees when you think about it. It lets campy Fox camp more since you'll never be able to catch him. As for Falco, well, he gets to super-camp now too. On top of that, he can reach the top platform in a single leap w/out using up his DJ so you can't really try to stay away from his lasers up there. I was watching an old match of HugS vs Lucky and HugS CP'd DL agaisnt him. He was winning at first, but then Lucky remembered "oh, I can CAMP!" and he came back and won the game. After that, HugS didn't made that mistake again and brought 'em to Yoshi's.

 

[BairJew]

Funnily enough, DL can be quite generous to Spacees when you think about it. It lets campy Fox camp more since you'll never be able to catch him. As for Falco, well, he gets to super-camp now too. On top of that, he can reach the top platform in a single leap w/out using up his DJ so you can't really try to stay away from his lasers up there. I was watching an old match of HugS vs Lucky and HugS CP'd DL agaisnt him. He was winning at first, but then Lucky remembered "oh, I can CAMP!" and he came back and won the game. After that, HugS didn't made that mistake again and brought 'em to Yoshi's.

Okay, um I dont recalling every saying that it was not good for spacies. I fully understand that spacies are good on basically every stage. I was just stating the facts that various floaty characters (Ex: Peach, Puff, Samus) like this stage because they can live for a long time. I do realize that spacies can camp this stage yadayada, my question was asking why the stages which benefit characters more than spacies are slowly disappearing. hopefully you would be able to help out with that question. That would be well appreciated.

 

[Violence]

I miss Brinstar.

I think it's one of the few stages that you just would rather not be a space animal on if you could choose to do so.

 

[bubbaking]

Why are other stages disappearing? Well, let's look at the evolution of the metagame. Over time, strategies centered around the Spacees have started becoming prominent. Spacees are learning how to abuse their shine and other crap better and other chars are researching how to effectively fight it. Look at us. We upB more than probably any other char in the game, largely as a counter to shine pressure. With the huge focus on Spacees in today's metagame, it makes sense that the stage list would reflect this emphasis. Of course, this is by no means fair and just goes to further display the imbalance in our fighting game. It's all a vicious cycle, cuz this will just serve to make the meta more centered on Spacees which will be reflected in an even more unfair stage list. We need someone to break the chain! >:-|

 

[Pi]

i just find it interested that brinstar/rbc/kj64 are the first stages to come up in the discussion
while stages like stadium & yoshi's story (really good for the top tiers) remain unquestioned for the most part (though stadium is under some speculation)

yoshi's has a lot of issues with it that other stages posess, shy guys, randall, being really small
but it's never been questioned as a neutral stage, but now we're thinking about completely removing brinstar and kj64 from play? lol...

there are a lot of things wrong with that tentative ruleset the last time i checked the thread

but all i care about is becoming the best, because at that point my opinion will mean a hell of a lot more than any amount of words i can string together and post in a thread.

 

[Van.]

m2k says pokestadium is broke for fox every now and then.

no one listens tho'

 

[McNinja]

I'm assuming pokeS is broke for Fox because of his Dair-shine infinate against the tree in the fire transformation? Oh and probably because of the low ceiling, too. Right?

 

[BairJew]

Fox is broken within the character Fox itself therefore the question above can be seen as redundant.

 

[crush]

Bairjew is very knowledgeable dont argue with him.

<33333333 BairJew

 

[McNinja]

Of course. If I had known my comment would have been critisized by the all-knowing Bairjew, I would never have posted it. I apologize for your wasted time. For he is obviously the very best. That no one ever was.

 

[Pi]

yea two of the transformations would be banned outright because of fox, if they were stand alone stages
the cieling is low
the platforms are great for both the spacies

it's a decent size stage offering for a lot of control via long ranged projectiles (lasers)

it's not terrible for other characters, but the spacies benefit from it from a lot of different angles