Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[JBM falcon08]

Marth vs falcon is stage dependent if the falcon bothers to learn stages like brinstar rc or kongo.

How many falcons do actually see do this though?

If falcon can cp and play well on these stages i think he wins, but if its on neutral i definetly think marth has the upperhand.

Marth can cc vs cf guys...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

not if he knees you or grabs you. trading fairs isn't fun vs falcon

 

[t3h Icy]

Awesomeness

Dude, thanks a ton! <3 =D

 

[unknown522]

I wasn't aware drephen still plays this game, or if he does, I was entirely unaware that he shows up to tournaments.

drephen was at pound 4

 

[Niko45]

Marth vs falcon is stage dependent if the falcon bothers to learn stages like brinstar rc or kongo.

How many falcons do actually see do this though?

If falcon can cp and play well on these stages i think he wins, but if its on neutral i definetly think marth has the upperhand.

Marth can cc vs cf guys...

Well CF really isn't going to need to learn Brinstar at all...Marth is legitimately terrible there. And yes if you play a CF and they don't CP you to DL64 or KJ64 (assuming you banned brinstar) be very thankful.

CF vs Marth plays out pretty predictably in my experience based on pound 4 rules:

1st match will almost always stage strike to BF, only exception is if the Marth player feels particularly good on FD.

Marth will always CP whichever is not banned out of YS or FoD.

Falcon will always CP one of Dream Land, Kongo, or Brinstar. Marth should really be banning Brinstar so under that assumption CF will counter with Dream Land or Kongo. If they CP to Final Destination they're actually making a pretty significant mistake.

Marth vs CF on FD isn't really that bad for Marth at all. No platforms takes away a lot of CF's potential recovery tricks and you can still do your regular old DD camp stuff. The downside is that without platforms his grab combos (and combos in general) are completely and utterly inescapable. I wouldn't CP or stage strike to FD personally, but if CF wants to counterpick me there I'm really happy with that.

And yea you can cc CF....when he nair approaches. But how often do good CFs do that? :/

 

[Roneblaster]

after playing with dart for a weekend i feel like marth falcon is 90-10

 

[Archangel]

So... on average, Marth mains think Mario is harder than Doc? is that right?

He is. In general there are better players that use Doc and there are 10 docs to ever 1 Mario. If you played green mario and Mango compared to Shroomed and Otg then you would have a harder time with Kyle and Mango.

 

[Diakonos]

For me MU are very stage dependent, but generalizing with the neutral stages in mind:
(Marth : Opponent)

Fox: 50-50
Falco: 55-45
Jigglypuff: 40-60
Sheik: 40-60
Peach: 60-40
Falcon: 50-50
ICs: 55-45
Ganon: 55-45
Samus: 65-35
Doc: 60-40
Mario: 65-35
Pikachu: 65-35
Luigi: 60-40
Donkey Kong: 65-35
Link: 55-45
Zelda: 70-30
Mewtwo: 70-30
Young Link: 65-35
Roy: 75-25
G&W: 70-30
Yoshi: 65-35
Bowser: 70-30
Pichu: 80-20
Ness: 70-30
Kirby: 75-25

Thanks very much for your hard work, Crimson!

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah so true. I guarantee a large majority of the people posting their opinions on matchups here haven't played any of them outside of the top tier more then a handful of times ever.

Yeah...hopefully averages help mitigate that. Theres really no way of telling who knows what they are talking about for a particular matchup and who doesn't. Like, even the great players may not have faced many DKs, for example, but have a general opinion on it anyway so they post it.

G&W: 90-10
marth falcon is 55:45.

For me MU are very stage dependent, but generalizing with the neutral stages in mind:
(Marth : Opponent)

Fox: 50-50
Falco: 55-45
Jigglypuff: 40-60
Sheik: 40-60
Peach: 60-40
Falcon: 50-50
ICs: 55-45
Ganon: 55-45
Samus: 65-35
Doc: 60-40
Mario: 65-35
Pikachu: 60-35
Luigi: 60-40
Donkey Kong: 65-35
Link: 55-45
Zelda: 70-30
Mewtwo: 70-30
Young Link: 65-35
Roy: 75-25
G&W: 70-30
Yoshi: 65-35
Bowser: 70-30
Pichu: 80-20
Ness: 70-30
Kirby: 75-25

Thanks very much for your hard work, Crimson!

Aight, I will add these to the list after I get a few more responses. I wanna get more responses before I recalculate averages lolz.

You're list is great Diakonos (like, we share just about every opinion), but if I may ask, why are you so lenient on the negligible tiers? Bowser and Ness doing the same as Mewtwo and Zelda seems a bit weird to me lol.

 

[Diakonos]

I have a hard time giving a character more than 80-20 advantage over another one. I've never seen raw, repeated domination.

My own projection of human ability at the current metagame makes it hard for me to put Bowser so low. So long as there is stage striking and a ban, Bowser can somewhat live vs. Marth. 70-30 is a heavy counter for me.

Ness gets ***** too, but he's not absolutely useless. He has a few decent moves out of shield that prevent utter domination, in my opinion. Marth is a punishable character, and you have to be Kirby or Pichu to get ***** at 75-25 or higher on my scales. Ness can still edgeguard/ do moves out of shield / get weak combos vs. Marth.

I count 100-0 as "you're going to lose pretty much unless your opponent SDs every day and is actually driving while playing you"

90-10 to me means you have to be supremely better than your opponent (or at least know the match up much, much better) and you're still not going to win every game.

On that scale, 70-30 is a heavy counter.

edit:// I screwed up Pikachu's. It's 65/35 not 60/35 lol.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I count 100-0 as "you're going to lose pretty much unless your opponent SDs every day and is actually driving while playing you"

Yeah, I think we just have different definitions. I think of 100-0 as "impossible in a legitimate tournament setting between two opponents who know the match-up equally as well."

Overall, we probably think the same thing about the match-ups (DESTRUCTION) but its hard to convert to number form...

 

[Divinokage]

A 90-10 I know for sure is like Ganon/Roy. I kinda rate it with everything that can happen in a match and basically Roy gets shutdown left and right lol. He can't even combo Ganon with his miserable sword and that's pretty much one of the huge Ganon weakness in general matchups which he cannot exploit at all. And I can garantee even a M2k level for example Roy would have a major hardtime winning at least one match out of 10. I think I've faced every Roy possible and none of them even came close to beating me which is why I say this... all of them got 4 stocked.

 

[Dart!]

A 90-10 I know for sure is like Ganon/Roy. I kinda rate it with everything that can happen in a match and basically Roy gets shutdown left and right lol. He can't even combo Ganon with his miserable sword and that's pretty much one of the huge Ganon weakness in general matchups which he cannot exploit at all. And I can garantee even a M2k level for example Roy would have a major hardtime winning at least one match out of 10. I think I've faced every Roy possible and none of them even came close to beating me which is why I say this... all of them got 4 stocked.

Obviously you've never played kumqu@t

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ive realized a few things that is gonna make playing falcons a lot more bearable. wanna wait til i play chris again, but i still think falcon has a little advantage.

dart, u coming up on friday?

 

[Archangel]

Falcon can never have an advantage over Marth until he stop sandbagging and uses his gun.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well i basically decided to up my dash dance game and adapted a few tricks from m2k and now i think i have the tools to beat falcon's camp game and as long as I can avoid the grabs I should be fine.

or ill go fox/falco/sheik against chris if we play this tournament XD (yey for maining 10 characters :D)

 

[Dart!]

ive realized a few things that is gonna make playing falcons a lot more bearable. wanna wait til i play chris again, but i still think falcon has a little advantage.

dart, u coming up on friday?

well i basically decided to up my dash dance game and adapted a few tricks from m2k and now i think i have the tools to beat falcon's camp game and as long as I can avoid the grabs I should be fine.

or ill go fox/falco/sheik against chris if we play this tournament XD (yey for maining 10 characters :D)

The secret to spacing well vs any character faster than you is to keep them guessing with your Dashdance.

Really, just dashdance nice and close to falcon and when you see him move closer and closer to you ease away with it. you should be able to react with a jab/shield/some kind of hitbox they all beat falcon. wavedashing in and out with utilts **** falcons that aren't prepared so give that a shot.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

josh you better give my fox a bunch of practice tomorrow. were gonna sit down on a TV for a bit and do that shiz

my marf and fox is gonna win this tourney. **** losing to the MW

 

[Druggedfox]

A 90-10 I know for sure is like Ganon/Roy. I kinda rate it with everything that can happen in a match and basically Roy gets shutdown left and right lol. He can't even combo Ganon with his miserable sword and that's pretty much one of the huge Ganon weakness in general matchups which he cannot exploit at all. And I can garantee even a M2k level for example Roy would have a major hardtime winning at least one match out of 10. I think I've faced every Roy possible and none of them even came close to beating me which is why I say this... all of them got 4 stocked.

So much truth in this paragraph. Roy vs ganondorf is so pathetic for roy

 

[OverLord]

these are my complete ideas.


Fox: 50-50
Falco: 55-45
Jigglypuff: 50-50
Sheik: 45-55
Peach: 60-40
Falcon: 50-50
ICs: 60-40
Ganon: 50-50
Samus: 65-35
Doc: 60-40
Mario: 65-35
Pikachu: 65-35
Luigi: 65-35
Donkey Kong: 65-35
Link: 55-45
Zelda: 70-30
Mewtwo: 70-30
Young Link: 65-35
Roy: 70-30
G&W: 70-30
Yoshi: 70-30
Bowser: 70-30
Pichu: 70-30
Ness: 70-30
Kirby: 70-30

 

[Dart!]

josh you better give my fox a bunch of practice tomorrow. were gonna sit down on a TV for a bit and do that shiz

my marf and fox is gonna win this tourney. **** losing to the MW

you want it you got it...i would expect the same from your marth vs my fox of course

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Definitely, you better show me how good ur doubleshines are lol

 

[Dart!]

well i developed a ****load of techskill in like 10 mins of practice tops
like i started just doing shnair to shturnaroundbair and just kept turning around then moved on to nair to shine upsmash then double shines
now i'm trying doubleshine to waveshine

 

[Divinokage]

well i developed a ****load of techskill in like 10 mins of practice tops
like i started just doing shnair to shturnaroundbair and just kept turning around then moved on to nair to shine upsmash then double shines
now i'm trying doubleshine to waveshine

There are no advanced techniques, only skillful movements!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario isn't that bad against Marth. I'll gloss past the part where I argue how whiffs and blocked moves are of course punishable and how Mario has good combos and edgeguards on Marth to even the score not to mention a faster closeup game and slightly more options to evade Marth's juggles than most characters.

More importantly, I'll add that most Mario mains don't understand how useful crouching is against Marth. Not for crouch canceling (which of course is useful), but for evading his aerial zoning. For example: if Mario say ducks under an aerial, you're gonna get F-smashed. I would put the matchup at 6/4 Marth at the worst. Most of Marth's ground moves besides D-tilt have punishable ending lag, although D-tilt only covers a specific zone. Putting this in perspective, Mario does have ways to get in, and with the right reads, can make Marth regret letting Mario get close.

I think Doc technically does worse against Marth since he doesn't have a rangey F-smash for random punishes to break Marth's zoning, and his gimping isn't justifiably better than Mario's for this matchup.

 

[Divinokage]

Mario isn't that bad against Marth. I'll gloss past the part where I argue how whiffs and blocked moves are of course punishable and how Mario has good combos and edgeguards on Marth to even the score not to mention a faster closeup game and slightly more options to evade Marth's juggles than most characters.

More importantly, I'll add that most Mario mains don't understand how useful crouching is against Marth. Not for crouch canceling (which of course is useful), but for evading his aerial zoning. For example: if Mario say ducks under an aerial, you're gonna get F-smashed. I would put the matchup at 6/4 Marth at the worst. Most of Marth's ground moves besides D-tilt have punishable ending lag, although D-tilt only covers a specific zone. Putting this in perspective, Mario does have ways to get in, and with the right reads, can make Marth regret letting Mario get close.

I think Doc technically does worse against Marth since he doesn't have a rangey F-smash for random punishes to break Marth's zoning, and his gimping isn't justifiably better than Mario's for this matchup.

Perhaps but Doc has better follow ups from grabs than Mario does vs Marth and also it's harder for Mario to simply kill Marth than Doc. A Mario has limited options to get in which is really **** hard to get in, in the first place I find. Marth has the luxury to spam more moves than Mario does.. the Mario player is going to have to be much smarter than Marth if he wants to punish very hard. I think it's probably worse than 6/4. I wonder how easy it is to shield poke Mario with Marth, it's probably easy with good accuracy. I think even if Marth plays aggressively, I just can't see how Mario is going to retaliate efficienly if the Marth has even good spacing.

 

[Archangel]

Perhaps but Doc has better follow ups from grabs than Mario does vs Marth and also it's harder for Mario to simply kill Marth than Doc. A Mario has limited options to get in which is really **** hard to get in, in the first place I find. Marth has the luxury to spam more moves than Mario does.. the Mario player is going to have to be much smarter than Marth if he wants to punish very hard. I think it's probably worse than 6/4. I wonder how easy it is to shield poke Mario with Marth, it's probably easy with good accuracy. I think even if Marth plays aggressively, I just can't see how Mario is going to retaliate efficienly if the Marth has even good spacing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaYXxsBse00&feature

 

[OverLord]

lol that's Mango, he doesn't count.

 

[Niko45]

Mario's fsmash actually makes a huge difference imo, which makes up a lot for his lacking Doc's slightly better bair, cape, dsmash, and potential dthrow fairs. Mario's combo game is pretty ridiculous, so he can surely damage build Marth into KO range. I think doc might do slightly better but honestly very slightly better. Both characters are pretty equally disadvantaged against Marth.

 

[otg]

I agree with Niko. Realistically I think most of Doc's KO's are going to come from edgeguards (mostly ledgefalling bairs), capes and dsmashes. Dthrow -> fair while guaranteed is pretty situational (no guarantee of a grab around those %'s where it does KO).

Mario will probably net a lot of his KO's from bairs as well (Doc's better bair really doesn't matter here as Marth's recovery will probably fail to either one of their bairs anyway), but Mario gets a nice disjointed fsmash. Now in general, I feel like Mario's fsmash is overrated, particularly when concerning his matchups and how "good" or "better" they are then Docs. But you still can't deny how nice it is to set that tiara wearing mofo on fire.


I still stand by Luigi doing the best of the three.

 

[Archangel]

lol that's Mango, he doesn't count.

That Logic is easily applicable to any character. It's the one thing that slows growth in the community. Every time a large portion of the smash community stops worshiping a player or character the community takes a big step forward. First was Sheik back in the EARLY days. Then Fox/Falco players(Many), Then Marth Player(Most notable M2K/KEN), Then Falcons(Isai/Darkrain), Peaches(Mike, Wife.etc), IC's("Thats how Chu dat does it!"), Then Puff(King/Mango), Then Ganon(Tip/Kage), Doc (Shroomed/Doggy). Samus(Wes/Hugs) Luigi(Ka-Master/Pakman) Soon to be Pika and Mew2 with Axe and Taj added to this list.

ANYWAY! The What I'm getting as is the community as a whole follows a pattern. First denial. In which case they ignore a characters viability and blame the player for success. Then they complain about how gay the character is once more players start having success. The second step of course depends on how many players choose to deviate from previous character in order to take on the challenge of a character that is being denied acknowledgement as viable.

Example being King's Puff. When he came on the seen Puff was mid tier and some didn't feel she belonged there. In a year he managed to make Puff look like top tier(She was but people didn't know it at the time). So people said "lol that's King, he doesn't count." Then came Others, Soft, Mango, hungrybox, Darc...etc Now suddenly. "oooh puff's Broken."

The community as a whole just needs to start paying attention to what the player is doing and how to do it as well or possibly better.

Example of this being Mew2King's Marth. He got tired of clutch losses to Ken so he studied what he did, Made some improvements and perfected a new style, Then he advanced Marth to another level.

I guess this Epic wall of TL2R post could be simplified to be more like M2K and less like Scar.

<3 Scar

 

[Archangel]

I agree with Niko. Realistically I think most of Doc's KO's are going to come from edgeguards (mostly ledgefalling bairs), capes and dsmashes. Dthrow -> fair while guaranteed is pretty situational (no guarantee of a grab around those %'s where it does KO).

Mario will probably net a lot of his KO's from bairs as well (Doc's better bair really doesn't matter here as Marth's recovery will probably fail to either one of their bairs anyway), but Mario gets a nice disjointed fsmash. Now in general, I feel like Mario's fsmash is overrated, particularly when concerning his matchups and how "good" or "better" they are then Docs. But you still can't deny how nice it is to set that tiara wearing mofo on fire.


I still stand by Luigi doing the best of the three.

I agree 100%

Me vs Luigi for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYMrlorHa0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jguonY0KBg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpTgZGz2G3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHbfdaUU7YQ

**** LUIGI!

**** double post. Sorry

 

[Zone]

Cosmo says its 70-30 but i really doubt that. Marth's main shield "pressure" is just spacing outside the shield zone. Zelda can reach there with her foot. I suppose you could just back up even farther and let her roll away and just take your ground... But my personal experience against him makes me prefer fox in the matchup. Also note that tink doesn't go marth vs cosmo and beat cosmo twice at SSBO XLV (once in winners bracket and then in grand finals) with fox (vids on reneblade's channel gogogogo)

I think it's 65:35 marth's favor, and Cosmo agrees. But yeah Marth is not impossible for Zelda. He's all about spacing and so is she. The only real reason he has such an advantage is his grab is good and leads to things, and that he has speed to get in easier.

 

[OverLord]

your words are obviously right, but my point was:

you can't argument Mario is bettere in the match-up with "Mango vs Tai" LOL
that's why I said "Mango doesn't count", 'cause mango is to an another level even compared to most of the top players. So at least you have to make me see Mango vs M2K to convince me.

Otherwise I can argument my point that Marth beats Fox hard with videos of M2K, and say that no one knows how to play. (that's not far from my point acually, but still it would be silly).

just saying.

 

[Archangel]

your words are obviously right, but my point was:

you can't argument Mario is bettere in the match-up with "Mango vs Tai" LOL
that's why I said "Mango doesn't count", 'cause mango is to an another level even compared to most of the top players. So at least you have to make me see Mango vs M2K to convince me.

Otherwise I can argument my point that Marth beats Fox hard with videos of M2K, and say that no one knows how to play. (that's not far from my point acually, but still it would be silly).

just saying.

At what point did I say "Mario is better in the Match-up?" Mango is on another level then Tai and he happens to be on another level then everyone currently. So was Ken at one point. All I'm saying is forget about the players and just watch the matches and take notes. Apply them to your game and you can have the same success in Match-ups. I'm not unfamiliar with Mario myself. I main'd him for about 3 1/2 years and I'll say there is no way the Match-up is 50-50. It's surely not 35-65 though.

btw I've seen Jman and Mango's fox beat M2K's. I know him and Scorp played but I'm not sure if they were recorderded but he was going mostly sheik vs scorp anyway.

I think personally the reason why players like Mew2King and Mango are often sick of the community is because they can never get credit for what they do anymore. If he wins it's because he's Mango or because he's M2K the robot. That's some bull**** IMO and people should start acknowledging them as...human at least lol. I mean seriously think about it. Mango starts using MARIO and winning or getting 2nd with MARIO!!! Beat Armada and Hungrybox in MM's/ several friendlies with MAAARIIIOOO!!!!!! What do people say? "oh thats mango it doesn't count" If I was him I'd be like **** you guys I'm retiring!!!.....oh wait.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

More importantly, I'll add that most Mario mains don't understand how useful crouching is against Marth. Not for crouch canceling (which of course is useful), but for evading his aerial zoning. For example: if Mario say ducks under an aerial, you're gonna get F-smashed. I would put the matchup at 6/4 Marth at the worst.

Marth is never supposed to approach with rising fair or nair against the Marios...

"crouching" won't work against good Marths unfortunately :/

 

[Archangel]

Marth is never supposed to approach with rising fair or nair against the Marios...

"crouching" won't work against good Marths unfortunately :/

It's situational though. Sometimes doing the right thing is the wrong thing. sometimes you have to do the wrong things at the right time to be successful. These are things that occur during actual matches that statistics won't show.

For instance if Mario has a % Lead(somehow) and it's a big enough stage that he'll just shoot fireballs and stay away you'll be forced into an approach. If other approaches don't work or your opponent is anticipating the obvious approach you might have to try a rising Fair or Nair. In that case then a Mario could apply those tactics.

*sigh* so much about Match-ups are lost as soon as the words GO! come on screen. It's not always as easy as reenacting whats on paper or typed up in the Match-up thread.

But yeah it's true. It hurts the Mario Main thats still buried in me but Mario is doomed in terms of top and upper tier MU's

 

[OverLord]

At what point did I say "Mario is better in the Match-up?" Mango is on another level then Tai and he happens to be on another level then everyone currently. So was Ken at one point. All I'm saying is forget about the players and just watch the matches and take notes. Apply them to your game and you can have the same success in Match-ups. I'm not unfamiliar with Mario myself. I main'd him for about 3 1/2 years and I'll say there is no way the Match-up is 50-50. It's surely not 35-65 though.

btw I've seen Jman and Mango's fox beat M2K's. I know him and Scorp played but I'm not sure if they were recorderded but he was going mostly sheik vs scorp anyway.

I think personally the reason why players like Mew2King and Mango are often sick of the community is because they can never get credit for what they do anymore. If he wins it's because he's Mango or because he's M2K the robot. That's some bull**** IMO and people should start acknowledging them as...human at least lol. I mean seriously think about it. Mango starts using MARIO and winning or getting 2nd with MARIO!!! Beat Armada and Hungrybox in MM's/ several friendlies with MAAARIIIOOO!!!!!! What do people say? "oh thats mango it doesn't count" If I was him I'd be like **** you guys I'm retiring!!!.....oh wait.

Personally I think it's Mango and M2K's credit if they are good and win. I don't think they are robots, just that they are amazing.

If Mango wins with Mario, it's Mango that is good. And if anyone ever said to Mango that winning with Mario against Armada is easy 'cause "**** you are Mango", then they're just idiots.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

IMHO marth vs mario is 65-35 and marth vs doc is 60-40

the pills make a huge difference.

 

[Archangel]

Personally I think it's Mango and M2K's credit if they are good and win. I don't think they are robots, just that they are amazing.

If Mango wins with Mario, it's Mango that is good. And if anyone ever said to Mango that winning with Mario against Armada is easy 'cause "**** you are Mango", then they're just idiots.

well your unable to process my main point still it seems. However I strongly disagree with a Player or certain players being good as a means of justifying an underused/underrated character's success. "What one man can do another man can do" His controller isn't modded, His Character isn't hacked, He eats, sleeps, and ****s just like everyone else. So what's the difference? he's named after a ****ing fruit is the only difference.

The only reason why Mango's Mario, Axe's Pikachu, and Taj's Mewtwo are viewed as the player being good rather then them showing what the character is Capable of is because.

A) people are blind
B) NOBODY else uses those characters at all
C) The average person is weak and doesn't have the balls to stand on their own. So the need a hero or someone to look up too. It's understandable yet annoying and slows down smash's development overall. imo


As for the current topic
I played as Mario and Doc vs Marth for a long time and I always felt I've had the better chance with Mario. Fireballs and Pills don't mean a difference unless your playing a Marth that lets himself get hit by them. Because I'm experienced at the Match-up in every way. It's unlikely that I'll lose vs any Mario or Doc and I don't care who it is. that's just how confident I am at playing it....still I feel it's more likely Mario's Fsmash will hit me then a Kobe or fsmash from Doc.