Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[trahhSTEEZY]

****

i definitely hope i meet/play you someday, judging from video interviews/posts you seem dope yo

 

[NJzFinest]

i swore in recent times it is now: sheik = icies. why still the -1?

Plank has a pretty good write up on this.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I don't really care what anyone says, i can destroy you all anyways lol.

When we meet again we will definitely engage in battle. I am not afraid.

 

[Mahone]

jiggs is not +1 vs marth....

Just because hungrybox thinks its easy doesn't make it so.

A majority of jiggs players, including mango when he played puff, think its
one of jiggs hardest matchups.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ yeah but whoever runs this thread seems to not listen to knowledge or logic and instead likes to base the chart off 1 or 2 top level player's tournament results

 

[PEEF!]

Plank has a pretty good write up on this.

I am convinced that ICs are Sheiks worst matchup.

I actually got to watch Plank lose to Uberice this past weekend.

 

[BunBun]

I still think fox is.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

^ yeah but whoever runs this thread seems to not listen to knowledge or logic and instead likes to base the chart off 1 or 2 top level player's tournament results

I would actually tend to agree with this logic. The top level of play(metagame) has one guarantee: equal player skill. At any other level of play, it is hard to figure out match ups because you never have 2 equally skilled players. This is good because it eliminates randomness and excessive variables.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

top level of play doesn't mean equal player skill by any means.

 

[BunBun]

The only problem is that when we're talking about a specific group of very few players, individual player matchups and tendancies tend to hold a lot of influence over match outcomes.

 

[JPOBS]

Sveet and BunBun are both right

Top level of play for a characters metagame does not at all indicate equal skill level.

I think everyone would say Hax (for example) is at the very top Falcons metagame, and Mango is at the very top of Falco's metagame. however, i dont think anyone would make the assertion that Hax and Mango are on a equal skill level overall.

You will never have equal skill levels between two players regardless of how you look at it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Here's how I see it: at the highest level, Jiggs beats Marth, while at the lower levels, Marth wins. At average tournament level, it's a pretty even matchup.

 

[Divinokage]

Here's how I see it: at the highest level, Jiggs beats Marth, while at the lower levels, Marth wins. At average tournament level, it's a pretty even matchup.

I think that might be a little too vague as a statement. Because also, the player's style themselves greatly affects the outcome of a matchup.

 

[FoxLisk]

I think that might be a little too vague as a statement. Because also, the player's style themselves greatly affects the outcome of a matchup.

no it doesn't. it affects the outcome of a game, not of the matchup in ideal terms. we're assuming that the matchups are being played right, which means style disappears unless there are two or more ways to play the matchup correctly.

 

[Divinokage]

no it doesn't. it affects the outcome of a game, not of the matchup in ideal terms. we're assuming that the matchups are being played right, which means style disappears unless there are two or more ways to play the matchup correctly.

Obviously there are different ways to play a matchup correctly.. Different tools used leads to different results which means there are more than just 2 ways of dealing with one thing. Movement choice determines your style of play.

Example: Fox goes for a SH nair, you can back jump fair... you can jump over him downair, you can sh upair. Doing either of those will lead to something different. What is the actually "Ideal" term you talk about? That every move is countered when something happens? That's ridiculous.

 

[Niko45]

Jiggs just pretty much beats Marth period. Any Jiggs that is struggling that badly with Marth is horrific.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Mahone, Sveet etc. :

Wow, really? No-one's mentioned Marth vs Jiggs yet. That matchup is NOT even. Lets put it simply.

At a neutral standpoint, Marth has ways to keep Puff out, sure, as long as he's very precise with F Air's and jabs, but if he hits Puff, who cares, it's the one solitary hit. Puff on the other hand, due to B Air and aerial mobility doesn't have to commit like Marth does and due to the lower punishment, can afford more mistakes. On the other hand, if Puff gets a hit it's likely death, either from Jiggs getting Marth off stage and general moveset ****** his horizontally limited recovery/edgehog resting or getting a rest off.

Assuming the point that Marth gets Jiggs to kill percent anyway, there's nothing safe to rely on. With others, Marth compensates for this with his excellent edgeguarding, but this is obsolete against Jiggs. So Marth is now forced to commit to a dangerous move like F Smash, something which if missed (very easy with Puff's mobility) or shielded means aforestated ridiculously costly punishment.

It's as simple as that, Jiggs punishes and kills far far easier in the matchup. It becomes a spacing war between Puff's B Air and a few of Marth's low cooldown range moves, but the Marth can afford far less mistakes.

I pretty much got the matchup changed to Jiggs advantage because no one refuted me. If you have genuine reasons to counter this^^^ then be my guest, but all you guys do is ***** without reason.

 

[Roneblaster]

jiggs is > marth no doubt atleast >

 

[metaivan]

yeah Discuss MARTH VS JIGGS

 

[X1-12]

nearly all marths do marth vs jiggs wrong, you have to play the match-up totally different to normal marth which is why the whole match-up is so strange, but jiggs you pretty much just play as normal

 

[metaivan]

i think in this match up marth need grab and nair a lot and not do many fsmash

 

[X1-12]

i think in this match up marth need grab and nair a lot and not do many fsmash

grab is too risky, they can duck under it to rest, its all about the F-tilt.. ALL about the F-tilt

 

[Blistering Speed]

i think in this match up marth need grab and nair a lot and not do many fsmash

Missed grab = death.

nearly all marths do marth vs jiggs wrong, you have to play the match-up totally different to normal marth which is why the whole match-up is so strange, but jiggs you pretty much just play as normal

Suggest a better playstyle then what I describe.

 

[JPOBS]

marth vs jiggs is all about marth nair spam straight through and through.

 

[Niko45]

Jiggs will bair the **** out of nairing marth...

Lol @ grabbing

Lol @ ftilt...laggy as hell, doesn't kill, nice 13% or whatever tho. Now try landing that 10 more times per stock.

 

[john!]

X1-12 is exactly right. Marth can use tilts only and still beat Puff's entire moveset. Marths are just too used to jumping in the air and being invincible because of his ridiculous range. So they jump and get *****. To beat Puff you have to change things up a bit.

edit: lucky 777 posts

g@me

 

[metaivan]

Missed grab = death.

well this is true but marth can shield grab to down throw to forward smash (well this work
when jiggs 0-25 more or less) he can fair with a full hop to fast fall with a uair and have the side b to utilt.
if this strategies didnt work only explain me i only try to understand this match up.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Jiggs will bair the **** out of nairing marth...

Lol @ grabbing

Lol @ ftilt...laggy as hell, doesn't kill, nice 13% or whatever tho. Now try landing that 10 more times per stock.

Sooo ... What do you think of the matchup? 55-45 in Jiggs' favor? I kind of want to know your opinion.

 

[BunBun]

Marth's utilt is super nice in that matchup.

 

[Winston]

X1-12 is exactly right. Marth can use tilts only and still beat Puff's entire moveset. Marths are just too used to jumping in the air and being invincible because of his ridiculous range. So they jump and get *****. To beat Puff you have to change things up a bit.

see this post in case you haven't already:

Lol @ ftilt...laggy as hell, doesn't kill, nice 13% or whatever tho. Now try landing that 10 more times per stock.

just to reiterate, ftilt:

-has tons of lag if you miss so you will get hit by something
-if you hit jiggs' shield she'll jump out and hit you with something
-doesn't outrange jiggs' bair by enough, meaning that you have to do it before jiggs is committed to actually approaching if you want to beat jiggs' move, since human reaction time isn't perfect
-doesn't combo into anything so has little reward
-doesn't do like anything if it's not tipped
-doesn't KO particularly early

I'm not sure where this "marth just has to stay grounded and he wins" idea comes from. I mean the move can be useful but you can't just spam it and win.

 

[X1-12]

just to reiterate, ftilt:

-has tons of lag if you miss so you will get hit by something
-if you hit jiggs' shield she'll jump out and hit you with something
-doesn't outrange jiggs' bair by enough, meaning that you have to do it before jiggs is committed to actually approaching if you want to beat jiggs' move, since human reaction time isn't perfect
-doesn't combo into anything so has little reward
-doesn't do like anything if it's not tipped
-doesn't KO particularly early

I'm not sure where this "marth just has to stay grounded and he wins" idea comes from. I mean the move can be useful but you can't just spam it and win.

it outranges by quite a lot actually, he moves forward aswell as having a long sword, it can also be done while WDing,
a jiggs will also have quite a bit of trouble spacing so perfectly she can get in to make marth f-tilt, then dodge it and then be able to move in and bair in time

if she shields then D-tilt to make her jump out of sheild to f-tilt works, you can IASA really fast. if she doesn't jump then just wait or ditilt again she'll have to roll away or let it up.

you say it doesnt KO particularly early, but its risk vs reward, lower risk is worth lower reward, at higher % when she is going offstage you can just jab and f-tilt to keep her off, if she comes in high, walk along underneath her and u-tilt/SH-upair maybe

 

[Niko45]

Sooo ... What do you think of the matchup? 55-45 in Jiggs' favor? I kind of want to know your opinion.

I'd go 60-40 since this chart doesn't recognize 55-45 as advantage. It's advantage Jiggs for sure imo. This is mostly of my experience with Mr. F, who I've played a couple of times and he plays an hbox style, disciplined bair spamming jiggs and he's on my skill level as a player.

You basically have 2 characters that want to use spacing walls to keep each other out/get hits. The problem is that Jiggs is highly rewarded for landing hits, as opposed to Marth who might combo fairs to like 40 but after that its just a series of one or two hits and nothing is killing. So as Marth I'd really like to control center stage and try to put more pressure on the jiggs despite her not really needing to fear the edge very much (it IS easier to land hits on jiggs if you back her down to the edge, regardless of how good her recovery is). However its very hard to control center stage and force Jiggs back when you really can't afford to screw up and Jiggs has more room to take risk and try to push you back.

Retreat fair and jab seem to be the best options against jiggs. Jab has surprisingly great range and actually can do wonders at disrupting jiggs air game and create pseudo-openings. I still think you are going to have to at some point land a couple of very timely fsmashes on jiggs (try to anticipate a jiggs approach, so hopefully she's moving into a tipper or if it whiffs, she can't get anything more than a bair/fair out of it which you hopefully are at a % to CC and maybe buffer a roll out of there or something. I say you're going to need some timely fsmashes because a tipper fsmash is basically a "gimp" on Jiggs, and there's just no way that you can expect to win against jiggs if you're killing her with fair or ftilt at 140+ every stock. Thats just too many victories from neutral position to ask of yourself when you can suddenly get bair bair bair edgehog ledge hop rested at any moment.

Even if you manage to start dominating Jiggs air approaches, Jiggs ground game is no joke either. Things as simple as jiggs dash attack in the 50%+ range could send you off stage and set up an edgeguard. Duck grab is annoying but you really shouldn't even be trying to grab jiggs outright at all. If you can force her to shield with jabs or well spaced fairs, you could start baiting her shield and grabbing but Marth's grab game on jiggs is trash. Jiggs just DIs down and escapes the fthrow/dthrow mixups and even if you land a throw -> tipper thats well before you have jiggs in kill range.

Oh I forgot she can also OHKO you if you screw up at all. It's an uphill battle.

TL;DR

Any advantage you think Marth might have from neutral position doesn't compensate for the huge disparity in their punishment games.

 

[X1-12]

TL;DR

Any advantage you think Marth might have from neutral position doesn't compensate for the huge disparity in their punishment games.

thats because marths get greedy and allways try something more, even if its only once or twice thats oneor two stocks

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'd go 60-40 since this chart doesn't recognize 55-45 as advantage. It's advantage Jiggs for sure imo. This is mostly of my experience with Mr. F, who I've played a couple of times and he plays an hbox style, disciplined bair spamming jiggs and he's on my skill level as a player.

You basically have 2 characters that want to use spacing walls to keep each other out/get hits. The problem is that Jiggs is highly rewarded for landing hits, as opposed to Marth who might combo fairs to like 40 but after that its just a series of one or two hits and nothing is killing. So as Marth I'd really like to control center stage and try to put more pressure on the jiggs despite her not really needing to fear the edge very much (it IS easier to land hits on jiggs if you back her down to the edge, regardless of how good her recovery is). However its very hard to control center stage and force Jiggs back when you really can't afford to screw up and Jiggs has more room to take risk and try to push you back.

Retreat fair and jab seem to be the best options against jiggs. Jab has surprisingly great range and actually can do wonders at disrupting jiggs air game and create pseudo-openings. I still think you are going to have to at some point land a couple of very timely fsmashes on jiggs (try to anticipate a jiggs approach, so hopefully she's moving into a tipper or if it whiffs, she can't get anything more than a bair/fair out of it which you hopefully are at a % to CC and maybe buffer a roll out of there or something. I say you're going to need some timely fsmashes because a tipper fsmash is basically a "gimp" on Jiggs, and there's just no way that you can expect to win against jiggs if you're killing her with fair or ftilt at 140+ every stock. Thats just too many victories from neutral position to ask of yourself when you can suddenly get bair bair bair edgehog ledge hop rested at any moment.

Even if you manage to start dominating Jiggs air approaches, Jiggs ground game is no joke either. Things as simple as jiggs dash attack in the 50%+ range could send you off stage and set up an edgeguard. Duck grab is annoying but you really shouldn't even be trying to grab jiggs outright at all. If you can force her to shield with jabs or well spaced fairs, you could start baiting her shield and grabbing but Marth's grab game on jiggs is trash. Jiggs just DIs down and escapes the fthrow/dthrow mixups and even if you land a throw -> tipper thats well before you have jiggs in kill range.

Oh I forgot she can also OHKO you if you screw up at all. It's an uphill battle.

TL;DR

Any advantage you think Marth might have from neutral position doesn't compensate for the huge disparity in their punishment games.

Great post, Niko. I feel like a lot of people have trouble accepting the fact that no competent Jiggs is going to just run into Marth's moves. Timing is more important than range (not that Jiggs doesn't have range).

 

[Blistering Speed]

Marth's utilt is super nice in that matchup.

Yeah, Puff can't get hit by that unless she's stupid and decides floating above non shielding Marth.

thats because marths get greedy and allways try something more, even if its only once or twice thats oneor two stocks

Stop, you don't know what you're talking about.

Niko knows whats up.

 

[X1-12]

Stop, you don't know what you're talking about.

Niko knows whats up.

niko right then was talking about having to risk and F-smash.. thats what i mean, don't do that don't risk

 

[Niko45]

thats because marths get greedy and allways try something more, even if its only once or twice thats oneor two stocks

Get greedy, or get baited? Puff's movement is pretty tricky, you know. And this isn't a matchup where Marth can just DD camp. He WILL need to swing the sword in order to protect himself.

 

[X1-12]

Get greedy, or get baited? Puff's movement is pretty tricky, you know. And this isn't a matchup where Marth can just DD camp. He WILL need to swing the sword in order to protect himself.

swing, yes, F-smash, no

 

[Niko45]

swing, yes, F-smash, no

My point about fsmash is that yes it is risky, but you need to do it because you aren't realistically going to fair or ftilt jiggs 12 times before she gets in on you and kills you because your neutral position advantage isn't good enough for that. You are forced to take more risk than jiggs in this matchup.

 

[Tamoo]

I wouldn't be surprised if jiggs can cc ftilt to rest

marth reaaally needs to be good with grabs to do well in this matchup from my experience, if he can get the grabs, there's a possibilty of putting up a good fight, but overall, jiggs 60-40 imo

Also jab is pretty amazing