Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[X1-12]

if you have to approach, walk really slowly

 

[Winston]

Well then please share with us all of Sheik's guaranteed combos on Marth that aren't at low percents. Unless by that statement you meant that you're simply poor at escaping pseudo-combos, in which case you probably shouldn't be in this discussion.

get kirbykaze in here, he can explain it pretty well.

Something like if Marth DIs away, you regrab, and if he doesn't DI you do some up attacks and trap him above you. He made it sound super gay and effective.

 

[Divinokage]

Wow I've read Pof's post.. it feels like he's trolling the character's themselves. And of course his statements are a bunch of BS.. Jiggs/Ganon.. Ganon goes off stage and dies? Why would I want to go off stage in the first place? ... Just that is enough to tell me he doesn't know ****. If you actually knew what to do then you would be a high ranking player. If you aren't able to execute what you say then it doesn't mean anything.

 

[JPOBS]

kage i think he's saying that "once ganon is offstage he's dead"

not that ganon should go offstage lol

 

[Niko45]

Marth can't retreat fair forever. He's going to have to move forward at some point or he's just going to get backed down to the edge. This is all of course assuming Marth is winning and jiggs can't just laugh at your retreat fair as she planks or just bairs repeatedly from a distance waiting for you to approach.

 

[Divinokage]

kage i think he's saying that "once ganon is offstage he's dead"

not that ganon should go offstage lol

Obviously, who doesn't know that yet?

 

[JPOBS]

Obviously, who doesn't know that yet?

Wow I've read Pof's post.. it feels like he's trolling the character's themselves. And of course his statements are a bunch of BS.. Jiggs/Ganon.. Ganon goes off stage and dies? Why would I want to go off stage in the first place? ... Just that is enough to tell me he doesn't know ****. If you actually knew what to do then you would be a high ranking player. If you aren't able to execute what you say then it doesn't mean anything.

Well you're trolling him for something you misunderstood, and insulting him for saying something which is pretty much completely true. I was just clearifying that.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Dark SAWNIC always knows what's up.

P.O.F should quit life, I'm not responding to that giant wall of wrong.

you assume that the marth is trying to be aggressive on the puff, which is not the case. Whichever player is more aggressive will lose. A defensive marth leaves puff almost 0 opportunity to break in due to her lack of speed and equal-at-best range. On the other hand, marth can actually approach puff somewhat. In general he can never do a forward momentum aerial or he will get bair'd out of it, but if he approaches by ground he can CC the bair into an fsmash or shield it and fair OoS. Puff's only real approach option is also via ground, and we all know how well her ground game is.

The defensive argument, as you stated, is applicable to both. Why should Jiggs not be the defensive one? Lack of speed? Lol maybe if she stays on the ground but Jiggs aerial speed and mobility make sure this is never a problem. CCing only works at fairly low percent, sub 50, not sure what exactly. Countering with F Air OOS isn't possible if the Jiggs spaces it properly and I don't know the specifics of CC'd F Smash, but I'm gonna say it's a pretty huge risk considering if it in some way doesn't hit then you're dead. The last sentence I just don't understand, why the **** would Jiggs ever have to approach via the ground?

I've been over how puff's "edgeguard" on marth isn't any better than anyone else's. neither character can really edge guard the other, though with some decent reads puff can potentially get a kill from one while marth doesn't really have that chance. The only time she is actually guarenteed to get a kill is when she can force him to upb onto the stage, which isn't quite as often as you make it seem. In fact, any character basically gets a free kill if they can manage that yet marth statistically recovers more often than any other character.

Marth's recovery gets straight ***** by Jiggs. If you've got time to aim, B Air his horizontally limited recovery straight to hell, but luckily for Jiggs, it sucks so much she can just float out there throwing out massive, long lasting hitbox like F Air or N Air and still be done with it. Of course, if all else fails, edgehog rest means death anyway. There's no denying how badly Puff's **** up Marth edgeguarding smart.

You also conveniently don't tackle my main argument, that it's neutral spacing, just the fact that Jiggs getting a hit means death (or something close), Marth getting a hit resets to neutral spacing. There's a reason M2k stopped going Marth all together against Puff.

 

[Divinokage]

Well you're trolling him for something you misunderstood, and insulting him for saying something which is pretty much completely true. I was just clearifying that.

That didnt feel like that was the case.. it felt like a whole bunch of bias towards Marth. You can definitely be aggressive vs Jiggs is what I meant to say, obviously you have to have the right spacing and also you have to understand what tools you have that can destroy Jiggs.. like Downthrow upsmash lol. =P j/k

 

[john!]

You also conveniently don't tackle my main argument, that it's neutral spacing, just the fact that Jiggs getting a hit means death (or something close), Marth getting a hit resets to neutral spacing. There's a reason M2k stopped going Marth all together against Puff.

This is what I took issue with. One hit from Puff equals death? What move other than rest (which is hard to land on Marth) can kill Marth so easily? Puff can hardly string more than two hits together if the Marth DI's correctly.

As far as Marth vs. Sheik, yeah I agree it's Marth's worst matchup, I just don't think it's complete **** like a lot of Marths make it out to be. The chart's fine as it is for this matchup.

 

[Blistering Speed]

This is what I took issue with. One hit from Puff equals death? What move other than rest (which is hard to land on Marth) can kill Marth so easily? Puff can hardly string more than two hits together if the Marth DI's correctly.

1) Rest isn't hard to land on Marth, especially because of the risks he has to take to kill her and his lovely comboable weight, mmmm U Tilts and U Airs.
2) Anything which knocks Marths off stage i.e. any aerials, B Throw, is potential death due to ridiculous edgeguarding.
3) Rest combos end conveniently around abouts where Jiggs can get Marth easily off stage with a hit. Unfortunately for Marth, edgeguard and rest are both very real death possibilities at any percent still.

 

[PEEF!]

Kirbykaze recently took the lead with most posts in this thread...

316, dats good sheeeeiitt.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1) Rest isn't hard to land on Marth, especially because of the risks he has to take to kill her and his lovely comboable weight, mmmm U Tilts and U Airs.
2) Anything which knocks Marths off stage i.e. any aerials, B Throw, is potential death due to ridiculous edgeguarding.
3) Rest combos end conveniently around abouts where Jiggs can get Marth easily off stage with a hit. Unfortunately for Marth, edgeguard and rest are both very real death possibilities at any percent still.

1) yeah cause its so easy to get a utilt on a spacing character.
2) none of those kill marth unless hes 80% or higher. you can't bthrow marth off the stage and edge guard him. Puff's off stage edgeguard is actually pretty bad because she can't move vertically very fast at all. If you watch any good puff they mostly stay on the stage unless the opponent has no jump.
3) i still don't understand how puff can get any rest combos on marth

 

[PEEF!]

puff can rest marth out of like half of his moves either CC or OoS.

 

[Niko45]

Not to mention once puff gets in she puts pressure on marth - forces shield or baits a roll, which she can punish with moves that could lead to rest.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

how bad must yu space to be getting rested out of moves

**** out of here

 

[KirbyKaze]

get kirbykaze in here, he can explain it pretty well.

Something like if Marth DIs away, you regrab, and if he doesn't DI you do some up attacks and trap him above you. He made it sound super gay and effective.

U-tilt below 20ish on any DI but away. FJ rising Uair or SH Uair after that, and then it depends on how they like to defend themselves when they come down (or you just combo it all together if need be). Marth's moves suck for combo-breaking Sheik because she has so much range to stuff them.

CG if he DIs away for however long necessary, at like 40 you can start D-throw Dash Attack and then try to combo if you want or you can regrab for full CG, I forget how long it works so whatever.

75 if there's no platform you can D-throw U-smash on any DI but away and it will tip and KO off the roof.

If there's a platform, if you time and drift properly you can Dair to cover 3/4 tech options (they need to be over a certain percent that I forget or they can ground themselves from the Dair but w/e), waveland regrab, or just wait and FJ rising Uair combo. Or even just Fair to push them off if need be.

There's more but that's the basics of it. There's a lot of fake combos you can get on Marth pretty easily too if you can just tap him out of a falling Fair or something with F-tilt or D-tilt and it's not too hard to death combo him if you make a read somewhere in there and tap him out of his double jump or call him not double jumping.

 

[CloneHat]

Hey, I'm wondering about the Luigi vs Fox matchup. It's currently listed as Luigi<<Fox. Why exactly is it so difficult? Is it because Fox kills Luigi early? But he can't combo him very well to rack up the damage.

From the way I see it, Luigi has an easy time tech chasing Fox with upwards-sending moves that usually combo into a kill or set up for a gimp. Fox overall has safer, more reliable options, but I don't see the matchup being overly skewed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

U-throw --> wait patiently for the Nair --> U-tilt through the Nair --> monster combo is very good against Luigi.

He also rarely if ever has much stage presence because Shine puts him on the edge from 2/3s of the stage.

But I dunno anything else about Luigi, I'll ask RaynEX or Unknown522 or something since they do that matchup like all the time...

 

[CloneHat]

I think I'll try it out against a pretty legit Fox over here at the next tourney, so I'll see if I can get some vids/contribute something.

 

[Mahone]

1) Rest isn't hard to land on Marth, especially because of the risks he has to take to kill her and his lovely comboable weight, mmmm U Tilts and U Airs.
2) Anything which knocks Marths off stage i.e. any aerials, B Throw, is potential death due to ridiculous edgeguarding.
3) Rest combos end conveniently around abouts where Jiggs can get Marth easily off stage with a hit. Unfortunately for Marth, edgeguard and rest are both very real death possibilities at any percent still.

lol... um ok. Marth is the hardest to rest out of all the competitive characters (except jiggs i guess).

I use to think he was one of the easiest to rest because you can rest fsmash oos and duck his grab and shield his dash attack and rest oos and all sorts of other ******** combos. But then i started playing good people and they only used fair and other safe moves.

Now the only rests i get are tech chases of downthrow to a platform, which can be avioded most of the time by techrolling away cuz jiggs isnt fast enuff to get there and sometimes predicting his grab and ducking, but i have to predict because good marths wont standing grab, theyll dash grab which can only be dodged by the early animation of ducking and if im wrong im there crouching so the can fsmash me.

Uptilt rest is pretty much impossible, they can almost always jump out of it and it is impossible to get right next to marth to uptilt if they are playing well.

Falling upair is hard too cuz they can just uptilt or shield and its just really to get a good opportunity to do it.

The truth is marth can just retreating fair and occacionally ftilt or grab fsmash until shes high enough to uptilt or fthrow tipper fair or sideb to uptilt or tipper upair, etc.

Its one of those matches like falco-jiggs where its even but the jiggs has to do alot less "work", as most of the matchup for her is mindgames and spacing a couple good hits.

 

[x After Dawn x]

if jiggs doesn't have to work nearly as hard to win, then that means the matchup isn't even, bro.

 

[Dark Sonic]

stuff.

I'm just going to straight up say that Blistering Speed's rest argument was wrong. Marth is not easy to rest combo at all.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that landing a rest on Marth is hard. This is because all Jiggs has to do to land a rest is knock Marth offstage and then successfully bait an aerial or hit him out of a jump ONCE. After that Marth is FORCED to recover onto the stage (Jiggs can actually float behind the ledge, wait for Marth to up B, and then grab the ledge before him. <_<). That leads to a pretty easy rest setup. Even in a match betwen players of equal skill, baits will inevitably happen. Marth will predict when Jiggs is going to try to bair and successfully defend himself with fair. Jiggs will predict when Marth is going to try to fair and get a kill from it <_<

Retreating fair is still punishable, it just requires better spacing beforehand than punishing an approaching fair. The fair simply has to barely miss, rather than you having half a fair length of leway.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think Jiggs can punish retreating fair with dash attack, if she times it well/baits the fair early by wavedashing in place or something.

 

[P. O. F.]

Dark SAWNIC always knows what's up.

P.O.F should quit life, I'm not responding to that giant wall of wrong.

Marth's recovery gets straight ***** by Jiggs.

Ok. Pretty sure everyones recovery gets ***** by Jigs and spacies and floaties get rested just as easily as marth. *sigh*

I'm just going to straight up say that Blistering Speed's rest argument was wrong. Marth is not easy to rest combo at all.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that landing a rest on Marth is hard. This is because all Jiggs has to do to land a rest is knock Marth offstage and then successfully bait an aerial or hit him out of a jump ONCE. After that Marth is FORCED to recover onto the stage (Jiggs can actually float behind the ledge, wait for Marth to up B, and then grab the ledge before him. <_<). That leads to a pretty easy rest setup. Even in a match betwen players of equal skill, baits will inevitably happen. Marth will predict when Jiggs is going to try to bair and successfully defend himself with fair. Jiggs will predict when Marth is going to try to fair and get a kill from it <_<

Retreating fair is still punishable, it just requires better spacing beforehand than punishing an approaching fair. The fair simply has to barely miss, rather than you having half a fair length of leway.

Everyone is basically saying the same things which apply to every single match up Jigglypuff has. Its the same information from every match up she has. Am I wrong? Marth just does a better job at keeping her out than everyone else with Fox tied with Marth IMO. Fox is actually probably better at the match up.

Seriously; talking about this games tier list is so stupid sometimes because logically, someone could probably come up with a solid argument to say Jigglypuff or even Sheik is the best character. (looks to M2K) No one will ever agree on anything. I used to think that this was one of the coolest things about Melee...the fact that no one agrees on anything...but, it just leads to balogni bickering and arguments at tournaments and such. Let the fighting continue (gets popcorn)

 

[KirbyKaze]

As far as Marth vs. Sheik, yeah I agree it's Marth's worst matchup, I just don't think it's complete **** like a lot of Marths make it out to be. The chart's fine as it is for this matchup.

That matchup is so bad that Marth mains almost absolutely need a secondary at top level because of how gay Sheik is to him.

So yeah it's like 55-45 for Sheik. Almost even, when you really think about it.

 

[P. O. F.]

That matchup is so bad that Marth mains almost absolutely need a secondary at top level because of how gay Sheik is to him.

So yeah it's like 55-45 for Sheik. Almost even, when you really think about it.

I think sheik beats marth 60-40. It's stupid, but if you know how to play it right its really not ****. Marth basically can't ever leave the ground unless he is comboing Sheik and he needs to capitalize off of his grabs more than she does. Easier said than done, but its not impossible. I've learned to deal with the match up. I hate it, but being a ***** about it doesn't help you to learn it. CCing is so vital for Marth against Sheik. If he doesn't do.....he loses.

 

[victra♥]

how bad must yu space to be getting rested out of moves

**** out of here

hahahah this.

though...jiggs can always crouch marths grab and rest <.< >.>

 

[Blistering Speed]

I'm just going to straight up say that Blistering Speed's rest argument was wrong. Marth is not easy to rest combo at all.

I just threw in that thing about his weight. An U Air on Marth is NOT out of the question, but anyway, my main point from my argument was still that Jiggs can rest from a single mistake, weighting the punishment ratio heavily in her favour.

Ok. Pretty sure everyones recovery gets ***** by Jigs and spacies and floaties get rested just as easily as marth. *sigh*Everyone is basically saying the same things which apply to every single match up Jigglypuff has.

I fail to see how this detracts it from being an advantage.

Also, everyone shut up about retreating F Air. It's not unpunishable and if Jiggs doesn't fancy taking her chances, why does she have to run into something RETREATING anyway?

 

[X1-12]

Blistering speed? have you ever had an arguement or discussion before?

saying "Shut up your wrong" is not really the way to go

 

[Winston]

Hey, I'm wondering about the Luigi vs Fox matchup. It's currently listed as Luigi<<Fox. Why exactly is it so difficult? Is it because Fox kills Luigi early? But he can't combo him very well to rack up the damage.

From the way I see it, Luigi has an easy time tech chasing Fox with upwards-sending moves that usually combo into a kill or set up for a gimp. Fox overall has safer, more reliable options, but I don't see the matchup being overly skewed.

I mean Luigi can definitely combo fox if he gets reads, but he can't cover all of fox's tech options on reaction. On FD he can chaingrab fox at some percents, but for the most part it's nowhere near guaranteed. His edgeguarding on fox is average at best too (compared to like marth, fox, sheik, falco, jiggs).

fox can chain sh nairs to rack up damage. Nair will often combo into uair at kill percents too. between lasers, platforms, and intelligent aerial spamming fox can often deal damage while being really safe. Fox is also probably the best character at edgeguarding/gimping Luigi.

All that being said, the lack of aerial -> shine -> guaranteed combo does hurt in the mu. The matchup might be/probably is Fox > Luigi instead of Fox >> Luigi. I'm just naming some things that make the mu not easy for Luigi.

 

[RaynEX]

Marth basically can't ever leave the ground unless he is comboing Sheik and he needs to capitalize off of his grabs more than she does. Easier said than done, but its not impossible.

How in the hell do you propose on doing that? Do you even know what she's capable of doing to your body after a grab? You clearly don't understand the match-up. Even if you were M2k, a good Sheik player would win in grab damage every single time.

<3 Pof

I mean Luigi can definitely combo fox if he gets reads, but he can't cover all of fox's tech options on reaction. On FD he can chaingrab fox at some percents, but for the most part it's nowhere near guaranteed. His edgeguarding on fox is average at best too (compared to like marth, fox, sheik, falco, jiggs).

fox can chain sh nairs to rack up damage. Nair will often combo into uair at kill percents too. between lasers, platforms, and intelligent aerial spamming fox can often deal damage while being really safe. Fox is also probably the best character at edgeguarding/gimping Luigi.

All that being said, the lack of aerial -> shine -> guaranteed combo does hurt in the mu. The matchup might be/probably is Fox > Luigi instead of Fox >> Luigi. I'm just naming some things that make the mu not easy for Luigi.

KaMaster is really good at following pretty much everything on FD. The benefit of having a WD that covers that entire stage makes reacting to stuff easier.

Anyone who plays Luigi decently will immediately learn to hold down on the c-stick and dsmash. Old school nair chains aren't a major point in this MU, but if you do manage to hit him while he's airborne he is reeeally screwed. I think this can be turned around to say that the loss of nairs efficiency and application really hurts Fox. Coupled with the fact that drillshine pushes Luigi WAY too far...already two of his best aerials are looking pretty bad.

But I agree with the rest. Safe bairs and edge-guarding against Luigi completely and utterly dismantle him. While the dair > shine may not be good for combos, its great for pushing him off the stage and into a position where you can take advantage of him. I'd say 6 /4 Fox. FD makes it a hell of a lot easier though.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

*High Five* You get a lead on her and camp it out. You literally never approach jigs. If Marth is down a stock its pretty much game over because its hard for Marth to approach her...or anyone.

What characters in this game are aggressive VS Jigglypuff? Spacies run around and camp lasers all day, Marth swings his sword, Sheik Vs Jigs is stupid for jigs advantage, Ganon goes off stage and he dies, Ice climbers LOL.

the only character that is feasible IMO is Falcon due to his speed and free knee BS after 70% or whatever.

Quit life! I approach Jiggs even when I'm winning. Just because Marth is down a stock doesn't mean its game over. It is not hard for Marth to approach Jiggs. You're buggin'.

Every character in the game can be aggressive against Jiggs. It all depends on the player and their knowledge of the matchup. You don't have to go camp mode and shoot lasers all day with spacies to beat Jiggs. Perfect example is Colbol. He has the most aggressive, but effective Fox and he's also one of the best players against Jiggs. M2K is another aggressive and effective Fox and he's also one of the best players against Jiggs too. M2K doesn't beat Hbox though because he does crucial mistakes that cost him the match and he doesn't listen to my advice.

So yeah people, Marth beats Jiggs. Next topic: Me and WarriorKnight's sexy a$$ Bowsers and how we wreck b*tches with him lol.

 

[P. O. F.]

Hi raynex! :-)

No, sheik definitely beats marth. Against a good sheik it basically translates to grab= stock. Her combo ability against marth sky rockets but marth can edge guard her, combo her, and has nice range on the ground against her with cc to d tilt or grab.

Blistering: if marth has a lead jigs needs to approach. The biggest thing in that match up for marth is to get a lead and keep it. Keeping a close eye on% is the most crucial in the match up more than anything. Its something marth needs to pay close attention to more than jigs. If the marth constantly retreats fair and ends up near the ledge then the marth has no idea how to space vs jigs. I find bf is hard for marth because its really hard to space there. Fod is platform heaven for u tilt uair traps for damage. Fd and ps are nice for spacing and zoning and ys she dies at like 50%.

 

[P. O. F.]

Hi raynex! :-)

No, sheik definitely beats marth. Against a good sheik it basically translates to grab= stock. Her combo ability against marth sky rockets but marth can edge guard her, combo her, and has nice range on the ground against her with cc to d tilt or grab.

Blistering: if marth has a lead jigs needs to approach. The biggest thing in that match up for marth is to get a lead and keep it. Keeping a close eye on% is the most crucial in the match up more than anything. Its something marth needs to pay close attention to more than jigs. If the marth constantly retreats fair and ends up near the ledge then the marth has no idea how to space vs jigs. I find bf is hard for marth because its really hard to space there. Fod is platform heaven for u tilt uair traps for damage. Fd and ps are nice for spacing and zoning and ys she dies at like 50%.

 

[P. O. F.]

Sorry about my double post weirdness guys. My phones buggin.


Dj-I stopped reading as soon as you said "I Approach."

 

[ChivalRuse]

While the dair > shine may not be good for combos

Drill -> jab -> upsmash combos pretty well on Luigi. He starts not being able to nair out of the jab at like 60-70%.

 

[giuocob]

Smash attack is DOWN, press it while wavedashing in
Then hit the A button airborne again and again
You can SDI, if you wanna win
But I do the same thing every single time

LUIGI DA BESS

 

[P. O. F.]

Luigi is underrated imo. He gets ***** by sheik/marth but he's got some tricks against spacies. He's not great but he's definitely not bad. I don't know the character that well at high levels but judging by pakmans thoughts id say he def gets ***** by sheik.

<3 pakman.

 

[Jimbo Slice]

Luigi is underrated imo. He gets ***** by sheik/marth but he's got some tricks against spacies.

Couldn't that be said of a majority of mid to low tiered characters? Everyone has tricks on the combo bait space animals.


Also a few posts back you said that a marth that runs out of room while he's retreating with fair has poor spacing. Could you describe good spacing in the puff match up then?