Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Fly_Amanita]

I will have you know he also WD back/forward D-smashes and Nair/Fairs sometimes.

He mostly wavedashes back. Forward wavedashes are a little extravagant for Hugo.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

samus is average at best

hugo is just amazing with samus

thus increasing samus's value

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think everyone seriously underrates samus.

She has some of the best spacing tools in the game as well as one of the best OoS games and one of the best recoveries. Also she has a ****load of tricks that wreck anyone without matchup experience.

Once you hit a certain level with spacing and have a patience level above an ADHD 8 y/o, you can cover a lot of options and as long as you are trading hits you are winning. I'd rather meet a technical fox/falco/sheik/falcon/marth in bracket than a smart patient samus... Luckily they are rare ^_^;;

 

[t3h Icy]

using numbers is fine, but using increments smaller than five is a bad idea. Calling a matchup "52:48" with any sort of confidence is entering the territory of the ridiculous. Averaging a lot of people's opinions is not how this should be done anyway. This isn't the MBR.

Even if averaging were the way to go, a Median would be better than a Mean.

I'm just listing what we have for now, but not with intent to update these quite yet.

I'm just displaying what people have suggested, but I likely won't change anything to a value that isn't a multiple of 5, else it'll just get messy.

Also, what are you guys thinking of the match-ups? Shall I change Fox/Falco to 50:50 and Jigglypuff/Falco to 50:50?

 

[HugS™]

DJ, people only throw away your opinion when you disagree completely. And with good reason.

You can't justify the correctness of your opinion, despite the stark difference against mine, by saying we're just owners of two different styles from two different regions. No. If my way works better, then my way IS better. Until you can prove otherwise, stop saying we're just "different".

It's a cop-out. If I'm wrong, state your case, don't cite yourself and your minimal success with the character as a source. If I'm right, then you're wrong until you can prove that there ARE two different successful styles with Samus.

IHSB could come in here all he wants and disagree with me, because he's shown his difference of opinion can lead to some success. He's not thickheaded enough to believe that my methods are only different, not superior. He offers a strategy that can be emulated, and in some cases, be a good alternative to my own.

On the other hand, you come in here and complain about how your position isn't taken as seriously, then you pretty much imply that your way is just as effective as a way that has been dominant for 5 years.

You're wrong.

 

[KAOSTAR]

not saying I agree completely, but since he has the most success and plays the least like the other samus players-you could argue they are doing it wrong.

Where your omega djs at cuz I know thats gone hurt yo heart lol.

quoted for truth

 

[Laijin]

quoted for truth

dude it doesn't work that way.
you can't quote yourself like that man

 

[otg]

Hugs getting off.

 

[x After Dawn x]

dam hugs

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think everyone seriously underrates samus.

She has some of the best spacing tools in the game as well as one of the best OoS games and one of the best recoveries. Also she has a ****load of tricks that wreck anyone without matchup experience.

Once you hit a certain level with spacing and have a patience level above an ADHD 8 y/o, you can cover a lot of options and as long as you are trading hits you are winning. I'd rather meet a technical fox/falco/sheik/falcon/marth in bracket than a smart patient samus... Luckily they are rare ^_^;;

You're insane.

 

[john!]

kk wit dat logical reasoning

 

[Strong Badam]

wtf
NO JOHNS

 

[john!]

*exerts johnsness towards strong bad*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus has a bad shield grab and a bad roll. Her jumps out of shield are awkward and high. This is not, IMO, the making for one of the best OoS shield games in the game, unless space animals are the only characters left among us and every other character died.

Her recovery is not good because it is slow. I don't think recoveries are good in general. It is easy to edgeguard if you are patient and wait for the moment she has to commit to something, or if you simply shoot the bombs with needles and other things, which either kills her outright or forces her to do something you can punish.

Spacing tools is vague and I'm not sure what he means but I'm certainly more worried about Puff invading my space safely. Or Marth dancing. Samus's moves are largely attached to her body, and not grotesquely detached from her limbs (see: Jigglypuff's Bair), so even if her spacing tools are awesome, you can still pick at that.

I don't think tricks that beat people that don't know the matchup at all should be taken into consideration for this chart. Otherwise we might as well say Sheik 10-0s everyone because if you don't know how to beat planking, you'll lose to it.

 

[Strong Badam]

stalling is banned

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea but playing mad gay isn't.

planking has a purpose 4 sho, easy to determine you are playing a ***.

you would never be able to justify sheik waiting for you to come to her and then attacking, as an intent to stall. I think they have to be unreachable, not abusing invincibility frames.

nobody is forcing you to approach either. at least from the rules they aren't.

 

[HugeHo]

yea but playing mad gay isn't.

planking has a purpose 4 sho, easy to determine you are playing a ***.

you would never be able to justify sheik waiting for you to come to her and then attacking, as an intent to stall. I think they have to be unreachable, not abusing invincibility frames.

nobody is forcing you to approach either. at least from the rules they aren't.

If you're in the lead, and you do a something that maintains your invincibility to retain your lead until the timer runs out, how is that not stalling?

 

[KAOSTAR]

they don't have to stay invincible, only when you come near or to avoid damage. they generally are still trying to hit you/kill you. but only if you put yourself at a disadvantage by attacking

its not like fox just ledge stalling for 8 minutes, its just a really homo tactic.

stalling isn't a very defined term. In most cases its hard to say how long you have to do something for it to cross the line of extreme patience to blatantly wasting time.

so far doing things that make you inaccessible are pretty much auto ban, going under stages to just waste time, peach bombing for no reason.

planking isn't covered well enough under the stalling rule. it also has not been widely utilized or dominant in tourney to warrant any preemptive measures.

the general consensus is melee players don't wanna win that bad to just plank for 8 minutes. imo you might as well not play.

im sure *******/ brawl player will come a long tho.

 

[VGmasta]

Samus has a bad shield grab and a bad roll. Her jumps out of shield are awkward and high. This is not, IMO, the making for one of the best OoS shield games in the game, unless space animals are the only characters left among us and every other character died.

Her recovery is not good because it is slow. I don't think recoveries are good in general. It is easy to edgeguard if you are patient and wait for the moment she has to commit to something, or if you simply shoot the bombs with needles and other things, which either kills her outright or forces her to do something you can punish.

Spacing tools is vague and I'm not sure what he means but I'm certainly more worried about Puff invading my space safely. Or Marth dancing. Samus's moves are largely attached to her body, and not grotesquely detached from her limbs (see: Jigglypuff's Bair), so even if her spacing tools are awesome, you can still pick at that.

I don't think tricks that beat people that don't know the matchup at all should be taken into consideration for this chart. Otherwise we might as well say Sheik 10-0s everyone because if you don't know how to beat planking, you'll lose to it.

This is a pretty good post from KirbyKaze, I'd have to agree with this one 100%. It sounds like a quote from a Smash Bible or something.

 

[x After Dawn x]

sveet, play more patiently lol

samus is a ***** if you don't

 

[Hax]

all i know is wes at his prime was the scariest and best samus. he played samus correctly, poking at the right times, being ridiculously hard to hit, manipulating down-b extremely well... idc if he wasn't the most successful, dat n!gga was nasty

 

[Cosmo!]

I think everyone seriously underrates samus.

She has some of the best spacing tools in the game as well as one of the best OoS games and one of the best recoveries. Also she has a ****load of tricks that wreck anyone without matchup experience.

Once you hit a certain level with spacing and have a patience level above an ADHD 8 y/o, you can cover a lot of options and as long as you are trading hits you are winning. I'd rather meet a technical fox/falco/sheik/falcon/marth in bracket than a smart patient samus... Luckily they are rare ^_^;;

when I used to play a ton of marth in tournament i felt the same... I felt I had to play perfect for like 6 minutes straight per match against samus. but now zelda vs samus is my favorite matchup and I don't have to worry about it!!!

 

[KAOSTAR]

this thread is a goner. everybody gets side tracked sooo easily lmao. at least its kinda done.

 

[otg]

this thread is a goner. everybody gets side tracked sooo easily lmao. at least its kinda done.

You have nothing to do with this problem... right?

 

[Divinokage]

It's always everyone else's fault.. even in RL. Right?

And then, tell me what happens when you don't face your own problems? =P

 

[t3h Icy]

* cough *

 

[KAOSTAR]

how am I not included in EVERYONE lol.

I never said everyone else or did anything to even remotely insinuate I was an exclusion.

its ok guys no apologies necessary lol.

edit: I really wanted to troll this situation lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Falco 50:50 Fox
Falco 50:50 Jigglypuff

And if I get yelled at, at least discussion is sparked again. =D

Also:
Falco 55:45 or 50:50 Sheik?
Fox 60:40 or 55:45 Jigglypuff?
Jigglypuff 60:40 or 55:45 Sheik?
Marth 55:45 or 50:50 Falco?
Marth 60:40 to 40:60 Jigglypuff? -_-
Sheik 55:45 to 65:35 Marth? =/

After we get these six done, we'll continue.

 

[KAOSTAR]

marth fox is pretty even.

I think falco has the slight adv on sheik. lasers allow falco to control the tempo.

 

[idea]

Updated:

Falco 50:50 Fox
Falco 50:50 Jigglypuff

And if I get yelled at, at least discussion is sparked again. =D

Also:
Falco 55:45 or 50:50 Sheik?
Fox 60:40 or 55:45 Jigglypuff?
Jigglypuff 60:40 or 55:45 Sheik?
Marth 55:45 or 50:50 Falco?
Marth 60:40 to 40:60 Jigglypuff? -_-
Sheik 55:45 to 65:35 Marth? =/

After we get these six done, we'll continue.

after watching jman vs. hungrybox from no johns, i'm thinking 55:45 for fox. jiggs' bair is so stupid it bothers me. i don't like it that my main can rely so heavily on that move.

jiggs definitely beats marth. ask hungrybox, he'll agree with me on that. i just can't decide if she beats sheik worse than marth or if it's equal. =/ hmm...probably a worse matchup for sheik. but not worse than 60:40. i guess that makes marth lose 55:45?

 

[t3h Icy]

Fox definitely has an edge over Jigglypuff, but it's by no means an easy match-up. Fox has the speed to match spacing wars against Jigglypuff's Bair, and Fox is one of the few characters that has a quick and usually safe killing move against Jigglypuff. Two if you count Uair, but it can be SDI'd out of most of the time, and Bair is another safe and effective killer.

 

[idea]

yeah, fox's speed is his main thing in that matchup. he can run in and hit jiggs for misspacing things slightly, and otherwise just laser till she has to put herself in a position where the running in and hitting can happen. but his lasers aren't the biggest problem...it's more things like, being able to jump up and bair jiggs at a moment's notice. he can't beat her range, but he

and upthrow upair is pretty good. it's easy to SDI, but i don't think it's fair to assume that'll happen every last time, and when it does hit it kills jiggs at like 80% on most stages, and often lower. if we assume the fox doesn't miss any l-cancels then jiggs can largely only grab him when he overextends himself. or with mindgames. lol.

fox matchups are weird because i'm never sure how much tech skill to ascribe to the fox.

anyway, i'd agree with either 55:45 or 60:40. i just don't see why no foxes can beat good puffs anymore =( it confuses things. i mean, they can't ALL be playing the matchup wrong.

 

[t3h Icy]

JMan did bring HBox down to the last stock all 6 games at their most recent tournament.

 

[JPOBS]

jman plays the matchup extremely well. he just lost.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The sky is green.

On planking...

You don't have to poof stall every time you can just drop, charge needles, double jump, stand up after a bunch of these if they're too far to be able to punish it, and then throw the full set after a while. And then resume edge camping and planking. Or you can ledgedash into grab B-throw if they get too close.

If people don't know how to steal the edge or handle the stage properly, this kind of strat makes a lot of matchups auto-win.

Also... nobody called stalling on Amsah when he started planking vs Jman. Perhaps this is because Jman killed Amsah during the procedure? Stalling is difficult to define in these situations.

 

[JPOBS]

jman vs amsah to me was

jman: "im going on the other side of the stage and use my chicago typewriter"
amsah: "k, i'll be of the edge"

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's kind of my point.

If you camp the edge and they camp the other end of the stage, who's camping?

 

[Druggedfox]

Updated:

Falco 50:50 Fox
Falco 50:50 Jigglypuff

And if I get yelled at, at least discussion is sparked again. =D

Also:
Falco 55:45 or 50:50 Sheik?
Fox 60:40 or 55:45 Jigglypuff?
Jigglypuff 60:40 or 55:45 Sheik?
Marth 55:45 or 50:50 Falco?
Marth 60:40 to 40:60 Jigglypuff? -_-
Sheik 55:45 to 65:35 Marth? =/

After we get these six done, we'll continue.

Falco 55:45 Sheik mostly because of the ridiculous comboing he has on her.

Marth 50:50 Falco. On any non FD stage, marth loses his CG, while on FD falco can shoot the crap out of him. I'm aware marth players PS consistently, but I play someone who if he pleases can PS easily with 80% consistency and as long as falco switches it up with aerials empty hops and lasers, he's fine. Falco's combo game on all platform stages is also ridiculous, along with lightshield edgehogging for edgeguards. Marth has some nasty stuff, but as long as you keep stage control and avoid getting gimped, falco can make it 50/50.

Marth Jiggs? Honestly, no marth player is on the level of any of the jiggs players currently (I'm counting m2k as retired). I mean, evidence would suggest jiggs comes out on top, but when you have two character whose games are both heavily reliant on spacing and one character EASILY outranges the other, I find it difficult to say jiggs has the advantage in the matchup. Idk though, it's obviously not a clearcut one.

Sheik 55:45 Marth. Honestly, I'd like to say this is 50:50, but I think the smash community would have a fit. While sheik does have autocombos on marth, marth has combos that can end terrbily for sheik as well. Marth's upthrow at low% leads to uptilts, and if they double jump out and you catch them with a u-air/uptilt, it's literally either a 0-death or a free 100%. He outranges her and his grab games beats out hers, while she doesn't have the speed fox has or the lasers falco has to control the tempo of the matchup. Obviously she has some dirty stuff on him, but his range, grab game, dash, + easy edgeguarding allows him to combat sheik much better than most people tend to say. Also, marth players historically don't have much trouble with sheik at a top level, or at least not enough to suggest the heavy 35:65 some people are.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

after watching jman vs. hungrybox from no johns, i'm thinking 55:45 for fox. jiggs' bair is so stupid it bothers me. i don't like it that my main can rely so heavily on that move.

jiggs definitely beats marth. ask hungrybox, he'll agree with me on that. i just can't decide if she beats sheik worse than marth or if it's equal. =/ hmm...probably a worse matchup for sheik. but not worse than 60:40. i guess that makes marth lose 55:45?

I watched that no johns set too. All i saw was jman wrecking hbox until 100% and then hbox turtled like crazy until jman got bored and stopped abusing his lead.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ Hungrybox