Druggedfox
Smash Champion
That's beautiful.
^ Hungrybox
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- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
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Fortress | Sveet
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promoted to admiral i see.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik Marth is so close that virtually every notable Marth player since 2006 decided to pick up a secondary specifically for that matchup!
Fortress | Sveet
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So just m2k....
... who already mained fox beforehand...
... who already mained fox beforehand...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ken went Fox vs KDJ to beat him at OC2.
Cactuar talked a lot about picking up Fox because of KDJ and M2K being really gay with her and eventually switched.
Cactuar talked a lot about picking up Fox because of KDJ and M2K being really gay with her and eventually switched.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
M2K beat every sheik in the country using marth. the only person to beat him was KDJ, and when he beat M2K's marth, he also beat his fox with sheik, so that's inconclusive. KDJ was also playing at the same level overall that M2K was at that point, so beating him sometimes does not mean it was matchup-based.
I don't remember Ken v KDJ involving fox, but I believe that. Other than that, though - which was, remember, nearing the end of Ken's dominance - Ken beat every sheik main with marth, too.
Cactuar is not close enough to the top to be involved in this discussion, really.
I don't remember Ken v KDJ involving fox, but I believe that. Other than that, though - which was, remember, nearing the end of Ken's dominance - Ken beat every sheik main with marth, too.
Cactuar is not close enough to the top to be involved in this discussion, really.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Well then, the sheiks sucked. Or just you know, maybe Ken and M2K were so much better than the sheiks. Sheik RAepS marth.
Mahone
Smash Champion
If you are going to use the ask *insert pro name here* argument, than i suggest you ask mango, because he will tell you the matchup is in marth's favor.after watching jman vs. hungrybox from no johns, i'm thinking 55:45 for fox. jiggs' bair is so stupidit bothers me. i don't like it that my main can rely so heavily on that move.
jiggs definitely beats marth. ask hungrybox, he'll agree with me on that. i just can't decide if she beats sheik worse than marth or if it's equal. =/ hmm...probably a worse matchup for sheik. but not worse than 60:40. i guess that makes marth lose 55:45?
I agree with the people saying there is no marth on hbox or mango's level, and i don't count m2k because last time he played hbox he kept doing fthrow to run miss a fair offstage and he tried to kill with an upb and then quit out with a stock left, so thats probably not high level play.
Do not be fooled, marth beats puff, I hate the thought of people seeing the chart and saying "oh ill pick up a jiggs as a secondary to beat marth" because right now you are saying she has the advantage which is just ridiculous.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
m2k also cps sheik with sheik in friendlies lol. he doesn't seem to like playing sword guy vs needle ninja
60-40 sheik:marth sounds accurate. but it might be 55-45. its not even.
idea
Smash Master
hold on, i'll go find my post on why jiggs beats marth. i didn't feel like finishing it the other night.
- she can edgeguard him by forcing him onstage then using rest. jumping off and intercepting him with stuff before he up-b's is also good since marth's recovery tends to take a while.
- she can crouch under all his grabs except an awkward part of his dash grab (iirc). and there's no timing involved, marth just can't generally grab jigglypuff when she's in pancake mode.
- the only real kill move marth has in this matchup is his fsmash. his uptilt can get her at like 130% or so, but that's not really a "kill" move at that point, that's more just jiggs being at a really high percent. so besides carefully placed/guessed tippers, marth's best bet for killing jiggs is, in theory, fthrow to fsmash. this for the most part is escapable with DI (and possibly in every situation, i dunno, ask magus), and even if it weren't, marth has the problem of trying to grab jiggs in the first place.
- also there's upair and uptilt rest, and techchase rest (especially on platforms)
one thing i should mention is that marth can get jiggs to shield, then grab her. but if he is spacing his aerials then it can be difficult to follow them with grab before jiggs has time to drop her shield and crouch. it's really risky, too, cause if he mistimes it or picks the wrong grab then he's probably dead. but he does have this one option, and it can sometimes lead to his one kill move, so i feel that's worth mentioning on the marth side of things.
but then, it's not like jiggs' shield is bad in the matchup. it's actually a really good way to approach if marth is spacing aerials. and i got that piece of advice straight from mango's explanation of the matchup =P
basically all marth has is spacing. it's good, but it's not enough to beat everything jigglypuff can do.
edit: i don't actually know WHY hbox says jiggs beats marth, i just remember him saying that.
- she can edgeguard him by forcing him onstage then using rest. jumping off and intercepting him with stuff before he up-b's is also good since marth's recovery tends to take a while.
- she can crouch under all his grabs except an awkward part of his dash grab (iirc). and there's no timing involved, marth just can't generally grab jigglypuff when she's in pancake mode.
- the only real kill move marth has in this matchup is his fsmash. his uptilt can get her at like 130% or so, but that's not really a "kill" move at that point, that's more just jiggs being at a really high percent. so besides carefully placed/guessed tippers, marth's best bet for killing jiggs is, in theory, fthrow to fsmash. this for the most part is escapable with DI (and possibly in every situation, i dunno, ask magus), and even if it weren't, marth has the problem of trying to grab jiggs in the first place.
- also there's upair and uptilt rest, and techchase rest (especially on platforms)
one thing i should mention is that marth can get jiggs to shield, then grab her. but if he is spacing his aerials then it can be difficult to follow them with grab before jiggs has time to drop her shield and crouch. it's really risky, too, cause if he mistimes it or picks the wrong grab then he's probably dead. but he does have this one option, and it can sometimes lead to his one kill move, so i feel that's worth mentioning on the marth side of things.
but then, it's not like jiggs' shield is bad in the matchup. it's actually a really good way to approach if marth is spacing aerials. and i got that piece of advice straight from mango's explanation of the matchup =P
basically all marth has is spacing. it's good, but it's not enough to beat everything jigglypuff can do.
edit: i don't actually know WHY hbox says jiggs beats marth, i just remember him saying that.
Laijin
Smash Hero
Yea but Sheik's f-tilt can collide with Marth's f-smash....
What do you have against that...., MARTH PLAYERS???????
What do you have against that...., MARTH PLAYERS???????
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I could be wrong about this, didn't Ken go all marth for their 5 match set at MLG Vegas, which happened after OC2?
Laijin
Smash Hero
btw...
Why are we talking about Ken anywhere in this thread?
This isn't like..2006 or some **** guise. I'm pretty sure the metagame has evolved since making that conversation kinda pointless..
Why are we talking about Ken anywhere in this thread?
This isn't like..2006 or some **** guise. I'm pretty sure the metagame has evolved since making that conversation kinda pointless..
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
marth hasn't changed much, everyone else has tho.
Laijin
Smash Hero
In 06...wasn't Jigglypuff like mid-tier? lol
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
Yeah but that's because at MLG Orlando Korean DJ beat Ken in Fox Dittos. And I don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but Korean DJ always lost to Azen's Marth.
And I'm not sure any of this is still relevant because it all happen in 2006/2007. I don't think any sets beyond late 2008 is relevant to today's metagame.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
is that contrary to what I said? or did you do that thing where you read/watch half the video or post?
_________________________
So when I read those two posts while thinking the topic was on Ken and how he's not a really legit player to be compared with the metagame now in this day and age, what I thought you ment that the Marth players have changed their play style and changed.
You should make your posts more clear instead of being an ***.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I left too much open to interpretation.
but I mean marth is still just spacing blah blah blah while alot of other characters have made strides in improving meta game.
and I was being an *** on purpose. sorry for what its worth ***** lol :-)
but I mean marth is still just spacing blah blah blah while alot of other characters have made strides in improving meta game.
and I was being an *** on purpose. sorry for what its worth ***** lol :-)
Lol I really hate you because you're too much like me over the internet. I bet you're nice in person. xD
Anyway I agree with the Marth being about spacing. But even though he hasn't made great strides he's still a character that can place well in tourney.
Anyway I agree with the Marth being about spacing. But even though he hasn't made great strides he's still a character that can place well in tourney.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
wtf why isn't Zelda > mew2
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
here we go again
Laijin
Smash Hero
Because people are dumb and fail to realize that Zelda has that match up covered ;o
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Zelda>Mewtwo.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
@teh icy-I agree with the bottom 3. no input on falco marth.
@rhan-lol ****ing legit irl. and yea marth is good. other characters have just been represented more.
still laughing that you think m2 would need to bair to fight zelda. thats the 2nd worse move to use in that MU, confusion being the worst.
what an assdorf! you too darktroll.
smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2232
@rhan-lol ****ing legit irl. and yea marth is good. other characters have just been represented more.
lets not get started on this again. I read all of your post and its obnoxiously clear you don't know ANYTHING about mewtwo and even less about the MU. its not like we are arguing mario has a slight adv on fox. numerically its a difference of like ten (5 each way) your two **** input could only be used to denounce a large adv in either direction. not saying you have to be anyone special to have a valid opinion but on what grounds should yours even be considered.
still laughing that you think m2 would need to bair to fight zelda. thats the 2nd worse move to use in that MU, confusion being the worst.
what an assdorf! you too darktroll.
smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2232
Crimson)S(hadow
Smash Apprentice
jiggs > marth now wtf?
should be other way around, marth = jiggs at the very least
mango says marth jiggs is heavily in marths favor
against a stupid cookie cutter new-school marth that RELIES on dash dance camping -> grab to start things up, maybe jiggs wins. but any seasoned player would know that the dash camping -> grab method only works on those who aren't smart or are too stubborn to use other methods. marths need to stop relying so much on grabs to start things up, because marth has so much more to him then that, and grabs are what crouch-crazy jiggs are waiting for these days.
relearn the old spacing game, the shuffle-based marth combos, added with the new platform movement and new era mindgaming and retracting of shuffles that mango paved way for, and jiggs should be the one getting ***** in this matchup. theres always rest to worry about but once you've put thought into avoiding rest set-ups then it shouldn't be bad. spacie mains have a much harder time with rests but you don't see them complaining; mango showed fox can destroy jiggs and dr.pp showed falco can go toe-to-toe with even a jiggs like hbox's, even comboing jiggs to death.
and marth shouldn't really be gimped since ALL his aerials outrange anything jiggs can do, just fair away jigglypuff when she comes at you like Ken used to do.
inherently this is in marths favor; this is more of a spacing based matchup and marth completely outranges jiggs, and is much faster. jiggs combos marth harder then marth can combo jiggs, but marth has decent combos too. jigg's main ways of killing are gimps and rests, and both can be easily avoided. while marth has ways of killing that are just as good; well spaced or well timed fmashes at key percents, the classic forward-b -> uptilt//wavedash-fmash, and sometimes even spikes, these can be avoided too but because of marth's range and priority, the way the marth plays he dictates the way the matchup is played out so he has an easier time in the matchup, as long as the marth is patient.
a good example to bring up is mango vs m2k jiggs vs marth match on dreamland. m2k spaced so good for the first portion of the game that jiggs couldn't do ANYTHING. neither characters have projectiles so the matchup comes down to range, i can't stress this enough. but the main factor like i said before is patience. mango had a much tougher time getting inside m2k's spacing but he was very patient, even when his character is outspaced so bad. how much easier should it be for the person playing the longer-ranged character? but this hurts itself because since m2k has the better character, he lost patience and rushed in.
THE VERY SAME REASON why falco's never laser and let the worse character approach; they always aggressively rush in against characters who don't even have projectiles..... its because they are playing the better character and they forget about how important patience is
why did shiz approach m2k on the ledge game 4 of rom? why do spacies, who have a percent lead on the last stock approach a ledge camping sheik//marth//jiggs? the very same reason.
INSTEAD, whenever i'm in that situation against friends when i'm playing falco or fox, i sit on the middle of the stage, shoot little brother bullets, turn to my friend and tell them "i'm winning."
should be other way around, marth = jiggs at the very least
mango says marth jiggs is heavily in marths favor
against a stupid cookie cutter new-school marth that RELIES on dash dance camping -> grab to start things up, maybe jiggs wins. but any seasoned player would know that the dash camping -> grab method only works on those who aren't smart or are too stubborn to use other methods. marths need to stop relying so much on grabs to start things up, because marth has so much more to him then that, and grabs are what crouch-crazy jiggs are waiting for these days.
relearn the old spacing game, the shuffle-based marth combos, added with the new platform movement and new era mindgaming and retracting of shuffles that mango paved way for, and jiggs should be the one getting ***** in this matchup. theres always rest to worry about but once you've put thought into avoiding rest set-ups then it shouldn't be bad. spacie mains have a much harder time with rests but you don't see them complaining; mango showed fox can destroy jiggs and dr.pp showed falco can go toe-to-toe with even a jiggs like hbox's, even comboing jiggs to death.
and marth shouldn't really be gimped since ALL his aerials outrange anything jiggs can do, just fair away jigglypuff when she comes at you like Ken used to do.
inherently this is in marths favor; this is more of a spacing based matchup and marth completely outranges jiggs, and is much faster. jiggs combos marth harder then marth can combo jiggs, but marth has decent combos too. jigg's main ways of killing are gimps and rests, and both can be easily avoided. while marth has ways of killing that are just as good; well spaced or well timed fmashes at key percents, the classic forward-b -> uptilt//wavedash-fmash, and sometimes even spikes, these can be avoided too but because of marth's range and priority, the way the marth plays he dictates the way the matchup is played out so he has an easier time in the matchup, as long as the marth is patient.
a good example to bring up is mango vs m2k jiggs vs marth match on dreamland. m2k spaced so good for the first portion of the game that jiggs couldn't do ANYTHING. neither characters have projectiles so the matchup comes down to range, i can't stress this enough. but the main factor like i said before is patience. mango had a much tougher time getting inside m2k's spacing but he was very patient, even when his character is outspaced so bad. how much easier should it be for the person playing the longer-ranged character? but this hurts itself because since m2k has the better character, he lost patience and rushed in.
THE VERY SAME REASON why falco's never laser and let the worse character approach; they always aggressively rush in against characters who don't even have projectiles..... its because they are playing the better character and they forget about how important patience is
why did shiz approach m2k on the ledge game 4 of rom? why do spacies, who have a percent lead on the last stock approach a ledge camping sheik//marth//jiggs? the very same reason.
INSTEAD, whenever i'm in that situation against friends when i'm playing falco or fox, i sit on the middle of the stage, shoot little brother bullets, turn to my friend and tell them "i'm winning."
Falco vs Fox slight foxes favor, he has the luxury of better recovery and grab combos.
Falco vs Jigglypuff slight Jiggs favor, falco gets knocked off the stage too early and his comeback potential isn't great vs jiggs.
Falco vs Marth Almost 6-4 in marths favor. falco has a hard time approaching marth
Falco vs Sheik Same thing as marth, Sheiks favor almost 6-4.
Fox vs Jigglypuff 6-4 Foxes favor. fo can trade hits later in percent. foxes momentum is godlike and lasers are too good.
Fox vs Marth Slight foxes favor. Lasers. almost even match up.
Fox vs Sheik Fox almost 6-4 , shieks aerial mobilty vs fox sucks and she can't do much to fox before 40 percent and fox should be the hardest character in the game to grab.
Jigglypuff vs Marth slight marth. Marth got can flat out space her(staying on the ground without commiting too much). marth has to work like a dog though to get kills.
Jigglypuff vs Sheik Slight shiek. i want to see a good shiek use back air well vs puff. shiek can move around puff on the ground.
Marth vs Sheik Slight shiek. obvious reasons. could be a 6-4 though.
Falco vs Jigglypuff slight Jiggs favor, falco gets knocked off the stage too early and his comeback potential isn't great vs jiggs.
Falco vs Marth Almost 6-4 in marths favor. falco has a hard time approaching marth
Falco vs Sheik Same thing as marth, Sheiks favor almost 6-4.
Fox vs Jigglypuff 6-4 Foxes favor. fo can trade hits later in percent. foxes momentum is godlike and lasers are too good.
Fox vs Marth Slight foxes favor. Lasers. almost even match up.
Fox vs Sheik Fox almost 6-4 , shieks aerial mobilty vs fox sucks and she can't do much to fox before 40 percent and fox should be the hardest character in the game to grab.
Jigglypuff vs Marth slight marth. Marth got can flat out space her(staying on the ground without commiting too much). marth has to work like a dog though to get kills.
Jigglypuff vs Sheik Slight shiek. i want to see a good shiek use back air well vs puff. shiek can move around puff on the ground.
Marth vs Sheik Slight shiek. obvious reasons. could be a 6-4 though.
Fortress | Sveet
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I pretty much agree with bob, though im not sure about sheik vs falco or falco vs puff.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Falco > Fox
idea
Smash Master
you didn't tell me why i'm wrong
marth's spacing is really good in the matchup, i definitely agree with that. but it's not better than jiggs' crouch, rest, and other little tricks. also he really doesn't outrange her that much due to jiggs' bair. he outranges all her other moves, but when it comes to bair vs. things they're pretty much on even ground.
but then, jiggs' fair is good too. it's kind of hard to explain why, but it's just good at intercepting marth's movement, especially the later weak part of it. and it often just interrupts his fsmash completely.
like, i could go on about what jiggs can do in the matchup, and when i get to the marth side of it it's like "spacing is good." it's just not enough. (to clarify, i think it's either 55:45 or 60:40 in jiggs' favour, leaning toward the 55:45 side, so i don't think it's a super death matchup or anything)
i'm getting tired of hearing myself talk. hopefully one of the better jiggs mains will get in here soon
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Didn't he also lose that one?
I don't think you guys understand all that Sheik has in the matchup, especially in regards to punishment and her ability to screw with Marth's demand for perfect spacing, but I also don't really feel like dredging the posts up again or rewriting them so you can think what you want. I don't really care.
D
Deleted member
Guest
To be fair, Azen is just great at the match and a great player in general. Is as in presently, he still plays occasionally and I'm pretty sure I have a better set record vs him as Zelda than any Sheik does >_>
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
otg
Smash Master
lol omg that is amazing.That picture is outdated.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Crimson actually clearly told you why you were wrong, if you look at his post and then yours you will realize that his argument is much better.you didn't tell me why i'm wrong
marth's spacing is really good in the matchup, i definitely agree with that. but it's not better than jiggs' crouch, rest, and other little tricks. also he really doesn't outrange her that much due to jiggs' bair. he outranges all her other moves, but when it comes to bair vs. things they're pretty much on even ground.
but then, jiggs' fair is good too. it's kind of hard to explain why, but it's just good at intercepting marth's movement, especially the later weak part of it. and it often just interrupts his fsmash completely.
like, i could go on about what jiggs can do in the matchup, and when i get to the marth side of it it's like "spacing is good." it's just not enough. (to clarify, i think it's either 55:45 or 60:40 in jiggs' favour, leaning toward the 55:45 side, so i don't think it's a super death matchup or anything)
i'm getting tired of hearing myself talk. hopefully one of the better jiggs mains will get in here soon
You say things like, fair is good but its hard to explain why whereas his argument was explained very clearly. Also jiggs bair is good but it still gets outranged by marth, ftilt will outrange it easily. For jiggs to win this matchup the reality is she has to bait marth into making a mistake and then taking advantage, but if we are talking about high level play between two equally skilled players, that kind of tactic won't be enough to give jiggs the advantage.
"Spacing is good" is actually enough, because spacing is the biggest part of the matchup, just because its 3 words doesn't mean it doesn't mean a lot.
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