Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Cosmo!]

sheik:roy is 7:3

 

[Druggedfox]

im curious bout this, i was under the impression puff had a sizeable advantage in the matchup?

links to any post concerning the matter would be coolbeans

I would say both from playing the matchup on both sides and watching lots of matches, taht its not that much in jiggs' favor. Falcon has the speed to punish bair spam, has a legitimate combo game on jiggs, and grabs lead to at least one guaranteed hit and at mid-high%, a knee kill.

Also, watching the majority of any good falcon vs jiggs videos out there, the falcon always seems to hold his own just fine. The most recent one is probably hbox vs SS at pound4, and despite hbox being a better player, I don't think either win was more than a 1 stock.

 

[JPOBS]

I would say both from playing the matchup on both sides and watching lots of matches, taht its not that much in jiggs' favor. Falcon has the speed to punish bair spam, has a legitimate combo game on jiggs, and grabs lead to at least one guaranteed hit and at mid-high%, a knee kill.

Also, watching the majority of any good falcon vs jiggs videos out there, the falcon always seems to hold his own just fine. The most recent one is probably hbox vs SS at pound4, and despite hbox being a better player, I don't think either win was more than a 1 stock.

yea but falcon can't reliably ever grab puff, cuz if she ducks, he gets shook!
other than that she has like a billion rest setups on him

but he does kill her early with random knee and stuff so thats good i guess.

 

[PB&J]

spacies vs peach is 50/50 ..u mess up..its a quick 40-60 damage. " people need to camp more against peach"

people need to wake up. patience beats campers.

most foxes ...not all... dont do well vs peach anyway.

i really dont see why people would ever say 70/30 off of the auto combos fox has on her.

doesnt everybody who know how to combo..know how to combo fox fairly well.

most of these are opinions and it just seems that it will be a back in forth battle for years and years.

i think this thread is getting us no where.

ps- peach mains been winning tournies lately or at least doing better than before.

armada gave them confidence at genesis and ill repeat it "armada just gave birth to 40 new peach mains just now"

and didnt peach use to be top three in the tier list many years ago.

the tier list is going to keep changing.

MANGO JUST STARTING ****** WITH MARIO..AND I HEARD THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE THAT MARIO SUKS AS A CHARACTER..LOL

 

[t3h Icy]

While Sheik against the horribly CGed is pretty one sided, the characters do have some tools. Bowser and Roy both can combo, but I'm not sure about Yoshi, Pichu and Ness.

Roy has disjointed hitboxes, but while they're stronger near the handle of the sword, being that close is in danger of a grab. Roy can do combos out of Dtilt, Uair and a bunch of others that help out. Obviously Roy wants to avoid Sheik's grab, but her Needles can also help against his sword. I haven't played a Roy, but I imagine it's somewhere around the zone of 80:20.

DJ Nintendo covered Bowser. Bowser does have some combos on Sheik and the Up B can help when shield pressured (but Sheik may get a grab). Bowser has power that helps for earlier kills, and nice edgeguarding. If Bowser holds the edge while Sheik recovers on the stage, Bowser may be quick enough to land FSmash. Bowser's Bair is also nice when guarding. I figure it's around the same as Roy's difficulty.

Pichu is pretty useless against Sheik and it's one of the hardest match-ups in the game. While Pichu has little to no offense, Pichu's speed and nearly lagless jumping can make it harder for Sheik to grab. That's about it. ~90:10.

 

[JPOBS]

fox def ***** peach.

dont mess up and its easy mode gaming.

 

[Fletch]

spacies vs peach is 50/50 ..u mess up..its a quick 40-60 damage.

This is true of lots of characters and doesn't stop them from getting ***** by Spacies. This can be said about characters like ICs and even Pichu yet they don't exactly beat the Spacies.

 

[Winston]

why the intervals of five? if we're using 100:0 we should be seeing things like 63:37 , 56:44 , 49:51 etc

by using intervals of five we're essentially using a 0:20 system

we're using intervals of five because people are comfortable thinking on a 0:100 scale. Even though it's mathematically identical, people immediately know what to think when they see 55:45. Change that to 11:9 and it just doesn't feel as natural.

It's that simple, really.

I would seriously argue against the use of numbers like 56:44 in the chart, but I also think that it's good to keep it in this pseudo 100:0 scale, because it's easier to work with.

The main issue with the 100:0 scale is that it sort of implies that the numbers represent an "expected win percentage" in the matchup. It's unclear whether this is what the chart is trying to show; I haven't even decided if that's a good thing personally. I haven't seen much serious discussion about this topic, though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm trying to figure out why Sheik would ever do close-range pressure against such a fat, slow, punishable, campable character like Bowser. Aside from Up+B he doesn't have an answer to shield pressure, and Up+B has the limitation of only really being useful in close quarters. Conveniently, Sheik has long limbs and good range. It seems like Up+B OoS would largely be non-issue if Sheik was just really patient.

His edgeguard on her is good (largely because of ledgehop Koopa Claw B-throw) and Koopa Claw --> aerial is nice, but beyond those and stupid gimmicks he's so fat and slow and obvious.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

do u get yur jump back from koopaklaw?

 

[The Good Doctor]

do u get yur jump back from koopaklaw?

I'm 99% sure you do...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yes .

 

[KAOSTAR]

I'm 99% sure you do...

that just means you dont know.

 

[Laijin]

lol @ this thread

 

[ShadyMilkman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Good Doctor
I'm 99% sure you do...

Originally Posted by KAOSTAR
that just means you dont know.

Win. This is my new Facebook status.

 

[rhan]

Sheik v Young Link: 60/40 or 65/35

 

[The Good Doctor]

that just means you dont know.

No, that's me being pretty sure you do...
You just have a **** in your *** because you can't convince anyone that Mewtwo is viable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Actually, I sort of half-agree with rhan. I don't think it's that good for Young Link, but after playing D20 for hours and hours, I can definitely agree that Sheik doesn't walk over him in the same way she walks over most of the other low tiers. Young Link has a good combo game on her (even from throw!) and comes with some useful projectiles; the bombs going through her ground moves and aerials are really good.

I'd say 70-30 minimally though. Even off no experience I think it's certainly easier than Marth.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Actually, I sort of half-agree with rhan. I don't think it's that good for Young Link, but after playing D20 for hours and hours, I can definitely agree that Sheik doesn't walk over him in the same way she walks over most of the other low tiers. Young Link has a good combo game on her (even from throw!) and comes with some useful projectiles; the bombs going through her ground moves and aerials are really good.

I'd say 70-30 minimally though. Even off no experience I think it's certainly easier than Marth.

I agree, Young Link's projectiles get owned by Marth's sword, while Sheik has to avoid them all together while trying to get to Young Link.

If only he KO'ed better....T.T

 

[KirbyKaze]

KOing isn't the issue, every character kills Sheik the same way and Young Link is fine at it. The issue is that his stuff takes time to pull and while it's nice that he can do it while moving, Sheik has some of the better ground tools to avoid them from really causing too much frustration. Waveshielding, wavelanding, her good run speed, and her fabulous duck are all really helpful tools for keeping his spam from forcing her into bad spots.

Annoying and effective are not the same thing.

To his credit, Young Link really should not be getting grabbed often by Sheik because he can play 80% of the onstage game on the platforms (except when he's comboing her) if he chooses to (I loosely quote D20 -- he says, "Against Sheik, I just run away on platforms and try to make them hate the game"). It is unfortunate that Sheik's Bair goes through so many of his moves if she's positioned for it, and that her Uair forms such good strings on him. Dair isn't really a good answer because Dair baited means Sheik grabs him, and it doesn't go through her Bair if they're positioned favourably for Sheik (Sheik's off to the side somewhat).

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey KK any advice fooor pichu vs sheik also that's like a pichu<<<<sheik I think people who disargee will only say it's worse.however the more I play the more I feel it isn't at all the worse match-up in the game also all sheik will play VERY predictable they grab more than a ice climbers main who doesn't know how to de-synce/space/set-up but can infact freeze glitch.chain throw and wobble. also when gighting against sheik how close should I be? betsides outside of the grab range? I sometimes like to get in people's faces and make them unconfortable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Close enough so you can SH Nair or dash dance grab her for missed tilts? I really don't know.

If you can make her miss grabs you can DD grab U-throw Nair, which is okay. Beyond that, get her above you in any way you can and see if you can setup a combo that eventually ends with her offstage. If that can't be done, just rack as much damage as possible.

I'm not really familiar with this one beyond some friendlies.

If Pichu can U-throw U-smash her at low percents like Pikachu can then I'd do that. You should check that for me; my cube's in my basement and my computer's upstairs and I don't want to move right now.

 

[Druggedfox]

Hey KK any advice fooor pichu vs sheik also that's like a pichu<<<<sheik I think people who disargee will only say it's worse.however the more I play the more I feel it isn't at all the worse match-up in the game also all sheik will play VERY predictable they grab more than a ice climbers main who doesn't know how to de-synce/space/set-up but can infact freeze glitch.chain throw and wobble. also when gighting against sheik how close should I be? betsides outside of the grab range? I sometimes like to get in people's faces and make them unconfortable.

Can pichu crouch under sheik's grab? It's just a random thought, and I realized that even though I've played pichu a lot, I've never particularly noticed. If he can (which seems likely), he can play jiggs style with preventing grabs and get free upsmashes If not, abuse auto cancels and low lag to hope that you never fcking get grabbed =D Uptilts and uairs are pretty legit as well

 

[KirbyKaze]

No he can't.

edit: Abuse speed is dandy but Sheik's ground speed is faster so...

 

[RaynEX]

Fox Peach is 60-40. Peach has a great combo game and all, but she has no mobility. Fox can camp her for days, regardless of how patient the Peach player is. What can Peach do about Fox running around on high platforms and falling with spaced bairs and lasers? Double jump? Run after him? She can't keep up.

DJ: "Perfect frames" where Bowser can jump out of Sheik's CG? I think the Sheik is messing up man. It's definitely inescapable until high percents get in the way.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pfft Peach's combo game on Fox is nothing to get excited about.

Except the 30% D-smash --> more moves combos.

 

[rhan]

Actually, I sort of half-agree with rhan. I don't think it's that good for Young Link, but after playing D20 for hours and hours, I can definitely agree that Sheik doesn't walk over him in the same way she walks over most of the other low tiers. Young Link has a good combo game on her (even from throw!) and comes with some useful projectiles; the bombs going through her ground moves and aerials are really good.

I'd say 70-30 minimally though. Even off no experience I think it's certainly easier than Marth.

KOing isn't the issue, every character kills Sheik the same way and Young Link is fine at it. The issue is that his stuff takes time to pull and while it's nice that he can do it while moving, Sheik has some of the better ground tools to avoid them from really causing too much frustration. Waveshielding, wavelanding, her good run speed, and her fabulous duck are all really helpful tools for keeping his spam from forcing her into bad spots.

Annoying and effective are not the same thing.

To his credit, Young Link really should not be getting grabbed often by Sheik because he can play 80% of the onstage game on the platforms (except when he's comboing her) if he chooses to (I loosely quote D20 -- he says, "Against Sheik, I just run away on platforms and try to make them hate the game"). It is unfortunate that Sheik's Bair goes through so many of his moves if she's positioned for it, and that her Uair forms such good strings on him. Dair isn't really a good answer because Dair baited means Sheik grabs him, and it doesn't go through her Bair if they're positioned favourably for Sheik (Sheik's off to the side somewhat).

I got KK's slight approval on something? AWESOME! lol

Maybe 60/40 was pushing it a bit. Not that I think about it Sheik can swat away the projectiles pretty easy. Needles **** all Young Link's projectiles which is an annoyance. bair can swat away the boomerang and if Sheik has some pretty decent timing. the bombs can be caught. Arrows are kinda pointless against Sheik so that won't really matter.

The matchup revolves around YLink staying on platforms and always moving. So pretty much if it's a stage that's not FD YLink stands a chance. On FD it's 90/10.

But 65/35 sounds about right to me. But I could also lean a little towards 70/30 after reading both these posts. D20 is a better YLink than I am. His view on the matchup would out weight my opinion.

 

[KirbyKaze]

FD is awful, I agree.

 

[Stratocaster]

Maybe 60/40 was pushing it a bit. Not that I think about it Sheik can swat away the projectiles pretty easy. Needles **** all Young Link's projectiles which is an annoyance. bair can swat away the boomerang and if Sheik has some pretty decent timing. the bombs can be caught. Arrows are kinda pointless against Sheik so that won't really matter.

The matchup revolves around YLink staying on platforms and always moving. So pretty much if it's a stage that's not FD YLink stands a chance. On FD it's 90/10.

But 65/35 sounds about right to me. But I could also lean a little towards 70/30 after reading both these posts. D20 is a better YLink than I am. His view on the matchup would out weight my opinion.

Do keep in mind this Match-up Chart is based off the New MBR Ruleset. With Stage striking deciding the first set, a ban if you win, or picking the counterpick if you lose. If there's only 1 stage that changes the matchup greatly its irrelevant.

For example:
IF Shiek is 90:10 against YLink on FD, but 65:35 on all other stages, the matchup is 65:35, then the matchup is 65:35 overall because that one stage YLink will never have to play on if he strikes it and bans it. If there are 2 stages he's 10:90 against sheik, well that has to be factored in

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is better than 65.

Even though nobody knows what 65 means.

lolololol

 

[Stratocaster]

tried to make it clearer it was an example to prove the point that 1 stage doesn't effect a matchup
I'm not saying the matchup is 65:35, and I don't care what it is

Spoiler

I almost used Ronald McDonald and Burger King as my example characters so people wouldn't complain about the numbers being off... and I should have

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not really attacking your logic with how stages are important and an outlier stage shouldn't be the basis of the matchup (or Sheik really does 9-1 the entire low tier). I actually agree with that 100%.

I'm mostly just giggling at the subjectivity of numbers and what 65-35 actually means.

 

[KAOSTAR]

65 means sheik controls 65 percent of each stock on average or through ideals and top level play.

load of bull ****

 

[t3h Icy]

I didn't invent them, I'm just using them. ^_^

 

[Winston]

Yeah, but since you decided that we should use them for this chart, you should have some idea of what you intend them to mean

=\

 

[t3h Icy]

Well what they've always meant. When you consider the tools each character has against the opponent, and one outshines the other, the match-up turns in their favor. Sheik against Marth has the vicious grabs and tilts, while Marth has a disjointed hitbox and nice edgeguarding. Of course it's much deeper than just that, but after considering each characters' abilities and how viably they can use them, comes out a number of some sort.

 

[Winston]

I mean, I know what an advantaged matchup is, and that 65:35 implies a bigger advantage than 55:45.

The question is, how do you assign meanings to the numbers so that everyone interprets the degree of the advantage in approximately the same way?

 

[t3h Icy]

That's always been hard to define exactly. Clearly, an 80:20 match-up is one-sided, but if those numbers were used as percentages, that would mean the weaker character would win 1 in 5 of the matches.

I've always looked at it as each character's tools clashing and which one's are better by how much as far as we can judge, but likely others perceive it very differently.

 

[Composeur]

I think the numbers are (somehow) describing how much technically better one character needs to be played, in theory, to win. So if the Sheik-Peach matchup is 55-45, it means the Peach needs to make 10% fewer technical errors (specific errors, since some are decisive and others inconsequential) or play 10% faster than the Sheik in order to make it a theoretically even matchup. I guess a theoretically even matchup is one that whose winner is determined solely on their strategy. Does this make sense to anyone else?

Oh, btw, I thought the Peach-Falco was decided to be 55-45 from the earlier (corrected) post, but the more recent one lists it as in Falco's favor...? I definitely bow to Armada's opinion on this and say that it should be at least even, if not slightly in Peach's favor.

 

[t3h Icy]

I copy-pasted the same error and forgot to fix it. It's correct on the chart though.