Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[ChivalRuse]

t3h Icy: This current format is fine in my opinion (although of course I prefer mine ).



If this happens every time at high level, then find a high level Zelda who agrees with you.


I'll throw this out there I guess:

ICs > Falcon

Have you not seen Azen vs Chu? No way IC's have an advantage.

 

[Winston]

While agree ICs aren't at an advantage in the mu (don't know it well enough to say if its evenish or Falcon's advantage), using one match as your argument isn't a good way to go about it =P

example: Have you seen Darkrain vs Wobbles?

if anyone cares to argue about it, here's my two cents on stuff:

There's no way that Falco is a 3 for Luigi while Marth is a 2. Those two should be switched.

Falco is difficult for Luigi for some of the same reasons Fox is. Fox can KO luigi more easily, but Falco's lasers give him such incredible stage control vs a character who wants to stay grounded that he's at least as hard as Fox is.

Marth vs Luigi seems in Marth's favor by a lot at first, but if Luigi plays smart Marth has difficulty punishing him effectively. Whenever Luigi hits Marth and disrupts his stage control he can often follow it up with two or three more moves, and he can edgeguard Marth pretty well too. Putting this together still has it in Marth's favor, but he has to work a lot harder than say Sheik does in the matchup (which you guys have as 2 as well.)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Good point.

On a related note, I've heard that Fly Amanita almost never loses to Falcon. I feel like Falcons just don't know the match-up well these days, while IC's players have only gotten better at it.

 

[xbombr]

IC's are such a rare breed. The good ones at least.

Falcon is one of the few characters that has to worry very little about getting shield grabbed by them and getting owned a silly CG that involves fsmash regrabbing or some other hilarious crap that totally demoralizes people.

 

[TheManaLord]

Good point.

On a related note, I've heard that Fly Amanita almost never loses to Falcon. I feel like Falcons just don't know the match-up well these days, while IC's players have only gotten better at it.

dis

the amateur falcon hordes are endless.

the good ic's players are scarce as hell.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Good point.

On a related note, I've heard that Fly Amanita almost never loses to Falcon. I feel like Falcons just don't know the match-up well these days, while IC's players have only gotten better at it.

Fly wins because he's good and the match-up is good. Azen happened to be a better player than Chu at the time, and he knew Chu's style inside and out; "knee and raptor boost" is hardly a comprehensive strategy anymore.

If the IC player is patient he can beat virtually any of falcon's approaches (usually by weaving in/out of his committed approach with u-air or b-air), and it's extremely easy for one hit to lead into a grab. Falcon also has to play a patient hit and run and try to turn single hits into stocks (of Nana) but I think overall it's harder for him to land the single hit, and the single hit doesn't always go as far as it needs to. If the falcon player can consistently escape the cg, the match-up evens out.

 

[KAOSTAR]

KAO just assumes Zelda will just stand on the other side of the stage and either get ***** by shadow ball or n-air......

I really don't see how he come to these conclusions. I've never played against mewtwo, really at all, but i've played as him and i've played as Zelda extensively. I don't see how Zelda doesn't have the advantage in a best of 3 set....

This is why you dont understand. Your m2 is obviously sub standard and you would have know way of knowing m2s abilities. If we end up in the same place its a definite MM.

This thread is pointless. If you all are going to say 'to hell with low tier match-ups' then **** you all.

I'm not. But the arbiter of what is right and wrong is not doing his job good enough. It's not just discussing the matchups, it's gaining sway of the person who makes the chart itself.

I dont see how he could possibly take your opinions over the three m2 mains. If we had agreed with you it wouldnt be a problem. We have nothing to gain from winning the argument, other than knowing the chart is accurate.

If pro zeldas dont show up to court, they lose the case. Or the higher a better advocate. If they didnt speak on it because they dont know, then there is no reason your opinion matters at all. At least Taj and vman gave an opinion. They were comfortable enough with the matchup to say its in m2s favor. It seems thats as far as the meta game has progressed between these two characters. If the zelda players come up with something new, then just change the chart.

Not trying to discredit either of you, just saying that from a standpoint of arbitration, you cant accept zelda experts dont know but m2s say its in m2s favor. Lets go with TML?? WTF lol.


@kyu-cant that be said for almost everyone? how do IC's deal with falcons approaches?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hey, guys, can IC's charged fsmash -> regrab Falcon? I was messing with it, and it seems like it could work if Falcon does survival DI on the dthrow (due to fear of the fsmash charging).

Whoops. These aren't the IC's' boards. :embarrass

Oh, well. My question still stands.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Charge f-smash -> regrab works in any condition that a normal regrab would work, so it would work if he doesn't DI away.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Does that mean it works on Sheik, Roy, and Pichu?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I can never get it to work on those characters, although I admittedly haven't devoted a lot of time to it on them since we already have better/safer alternatives against them.

I'm not exactly sure what to say about Falcon vs. ICs. It's a really odd match-up in which both characters can gain ridiculous amounts of momentum off a single hit. I do feel like it's really hard for Falcon to do anything to a patient ICs, but I think the reverse is also true to a certain extent that varies by stage.

 

[TheManaLord]

This is why you dont understand. Your m2 is obviously sub standard and you would have know way of knowing m2s abilities. If we end up in the same place its a definite MM.



I dont see how he could possibly take your opinions over the three m2 mains. If we had agreed with you it wouldnt be a problem. We have nothing to gain from winning the argument, other than knowing the chart is accurate.

If pro zeldas dont show up to court, they lose the case. Or the higher a better advocate. If they didnt speak on it because they dont know, then there is no reason your opinion matters at all. At least Taj and vman gave an opinion. They were comfortable enough with the matchup to say its in m2s favor. It seems thats as far as the meta game has progressed between these two characters. If the zelda players come up with something new, then just change the chart.

Not trying to discredit either of you, just saying that from a standpoint of arbitration, you cant accept zelda experts dont know but m2s say its in m2s favor. Lets go with TML?? WTF lol.


@kyu-cant that be said for almost everyone? how do IC's deal with falcons approaches?

It doesn't matter who advocates what. It can be just as unfounded and totally unprovable regardless. There obviously needs to be more input.


And jesus, can you really quit bashing how bad my m2 is? I've played this **** since 2004 and have done ridiculous amounts of AR work and testing (I hadn't played anyone for years just did a lot of solo study) and mewtwo was my main for longer than you've even been registered for smashboards. I can bash on you but I don't, because it's completely unwarranted and there's absolutely no foundation to it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like the charged fsmash regrab would be really demoralizing, and that would be your reason to opt for it over the more reliable alternatives.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I wasnt bashing your m2 dude. The good doctor who plays zelda said he played m2 and I was saying his probably isnt very good if you dont play him much.

I didnt mention your m2.

the last part was just defending the Icy. You cant blame him for his decision in taking the m2s side based on the fact that taj and vman both gave their opinion, and in m2s case would be the two of the most valid.

This isnt like its a final chart, but based on whats currently there I can see him changing it. It something comes up later, its a simple click of the edit button.

Thats all, I think you just mis read the quotes. no hard feelings.

and If I insulted you in the past Im sorry, Name calling isnt usually warranted and it doesnt need to be present in legitimate discussions.

 

[Dark Hart]

I still feel that Raptor Boost ***** ICs, but I mean I only live 5 mins away from NC's best IC main.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Raptor boost is good, but ICs can do a lot of things about it. At low percentages, they can just CC it and grab you. They can also shield it facing backwards and bair you afterwards. Another funky option is backwards facing utilt to clank with it and then dsmash when Falcon is still recovering from the lag, although I don't really advocate doing that a lot. They might be able to grab Falcon after that, too, although I'm not sure. Any form of desynched blizzard beats raptor boost, although the only ones that ICs can really catch Falcon off-guard with are probably DD -> blizzard and belay OoS -> blizzard, the latter of which is actually very good against Falcon in general.

 

[Nintendude]

ICs-Falcon is definitely a solid even matchup. I actually feel that on neutrals ICs have a very slight advantage but Falcon performs better on counterpicks. He seems to get wrecked by dash-A of all things (as long as you use it intelligently). It's pretty funny.

The charge-smash regrab is awkward on Falcon because it takes a long time to down-throw him, so the smash seems to get released too early. You can probably start the down-throw before charging the smash to get it to work. I haven't really played around with it much though because he has a hard time escaping the Dair chaingrab.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The charge-smash regrab is awkward on Falcon because it takes a long time to down-throw him, so the smash seems to get released too early. You can probably start the down-throw before charging the smash to get it to work.

Yea. You just dthrow as soon as Nana starts charging the fsmash.

 

[Magus420]

Is it not known that sopo CG works on Falcon between something like 0-170% before he can jump out? The jump out % doesn't actually matter since he'd be going straight up from the throw to do that and you can kill from that position before then, so it's more like you can d-throw CG him regardless of percent until he goes offstage or can go high enough to reach a platform. You need to react quickly to catch away DI in time, but it's doable. You can regrab Falco on away DI as well but that's beyond impossible to react to and you'd need to be a robot, lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

So I can't approach Zelda/Mewtwo without get flamed. =P Oh well. If I made it Zelda = Mewtwo for now only to even out the rankings/"point values", would that be acceptable until we reach a consensus?

Also while I do have my own opinion, I've only applied it to Sheik/Puff's match-ups. I play a bunch of characters, but only those two seriously. If I were to take a stab at it with my uneducated opinion, I'd say Zelda > Mewtwo, but I have no idea at all.

Going through the match-ups with some ordering rather than whatever, come as we go could work. Gustav did it for his chart awhile ago. Would you guys prefer that? I can just hold onto the match-ups that are outstanding and use them as a reference for when we reach them in the chart, and we can have an interruption once DJ Nintendo gives us his and WarriorKnight's opinions on Bowser.

Oh and again, if I change something that afterward the consensus disagrees with. IT'S NOT PERMANENT! So flaming me isn't necessary. =)

 

[The Good Doctor]

So I can't approach Zelda/Mewtwo without get flamed. =P Oh well. If I made it Zelda = Mewtwo for now only to even out the rankings/"point values", would that be acceptable until we reach a consensus?

Also while I do have my own opinion, I've only applied it to Sheik/Puff's match-ups. I play a bunch of characters, but only those two seriously. If I were to take a stab at it with my uneducated opinion, I'd say Zelda > Mewtwo, but I have no idea at all.

Going through the match-ups with some ordering rather than whatever, come as we go could work. Gustav did it for his chart awhile ago. Would you guys prefer that? I can just hold onto the match-ups that are outstanding and use them as a reference for when we reach them in the chart, and we can have an interruption once DJ Nintendo gives us his and WarriorKnight's opinions on Bowser.

Oh and again, if I change something that afterward the consensus disagrees with. IT'S NOT PERMANENT! So flaming me isn't necessary. =)

That's why I like lists based off tournament results, and having a match-up chart like that is almost impossible.

 

[KAOSTAR]

teh Icy I disagree but you can do what you want. Privileges of making a thread.

The good doctor, I like your new avi.

 

[The Good Doctor]

teh Icy I disagree but you can do what you want. Privileges of making a thread.

The good doctor, I like your new avi.

You better!
=D

 

[t3h Icy]

Well I can leave Zelda/Mewtwo and have the Mewtwo players disagree, or change it to Mewtwo's advantage and have the Zelda players complain. Or change it to equal and everyone hates me! =D

Or maybe we can do the chart, characters by character and forget about it for awhile. =P

Like Fly said, so much discussion about a match-up that almost never happens. It's good, but if we could channel that energy into some tricky ones that are at least somewhat popular, such as the Fox/Jigglypuff debacle, then maybe we could get the "important" characters finished.

But low tiers need love too.

 

[TheManaLord]

I disagree as well obviously. If consensus isn't reach then how can it change? Specific matchups should be discussed by everyone involved in this project until they are all finished. The unorganized method now simply leads to revival of past discussed matchups and random interjection.

 

[Nintendude]

Yea. You just dthrow as soon as Nana starts charging the fsmash.

My point was that if you do that with Falcon the smash hits too early because the down-throw takes too long due to Falcon's weight.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well I ive spit my piece, as well as the other m2 players, and some on zeldas behalf.

I dont think any of us are going to change our minds. Ive heard umbreon asked to be super banned so I dont know if he will be helping at all.

It would be nice if to get a top level zeldas opinion.

Nobody is going to flame you for whatever decision you make. But make one.

Remember tho, all the m2s agree.

 

[ChivalRuse]

My point was that if you do that with Falcon the smash hits too early because the down-throw takes too long due to Falcon's weight.

It's a tricky timing, but it can work at low percents. Not as well as it does on Fox and Falco, obviously.

 

[xbombr]

I disagree as well obviously. If consensus isn't reach then how can it change? Specific matchups should be discussed by everyone involved in this project until they are all finished. The unorganized method now simply leads to revival of past discussed matchups and random interjection.

There is also not enough of a consensus that it's in Zelda's favor for it to stay that way. Putting it as even is the best bet, even if everyone hates Icy for it (which i won't), it's going to be less hate than if it gets changed to M2's favor or kept the way it is.

 

[TheManaLord]

Three people should decide the matchup for the community? What the **** sort of consensus is that?

There isn't enough input. <- bolded period. PERIOD

 

[xbombr]

Three people should decide the matchup for the community? What the **** sort of consensus is that?

There isn't enough input. <- bolded period. PERIOD

Are you saying you're more credible than three people (one of which is best M2)? Why should YOU decide the match up for the entire community?

 

[Alphicans]

That isn't even close to what he said. Why the **** would you say that?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Three people should decide the matchup for the community? What the **** sort of consensus is that?

There isn't enough input. <- bolded period. PERIOD

I have to agree with you on that.

but Id say that based on what we have its in m2s favor, and I think it should be brought up again for re discussion come new evidence or participants.

ITs not a set in stone chart and by not allowing it to be changed is kinda stubborn(not that we all arent being that way).

It should be changed to m2>zelda but feel free to bring it up at anytime. All he has to do is click the edit button.

 

[x After Dawn x]

it should at least be changed to even, that reflects everybody's opinions at least.

 

[KAOSTAR]

thats at minimum. We know what should happen

hint hint.

 

[TheManaLord]

it should at least be changed to even, that reflects everybody's opinions at least.

I don't think anybody advocated that to be honest. It just happens to be in the middle of the limited opinions offered. Some people might even think the matchup is more extreme.

Icy, just streamline the discussion please! Specific matchups. Put it in the title so everyone sees it and offers input.

 

[KAOSTAR]

thats a good Idea. Everyone gives input on the same thing.

but what if they dont know **** and since they cant talk about anything else they just reiterate what other people said.

without meaning it.

**** it. lmao I dont care. click my sig to view my combo video plz.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't think anybody advocated that to be honest. It just happens to be in the middle of the limited opinions offered. Some people might even think the matchup is more extreme.

Icy, just streamline the discussion please! Specific matchups. Put it in the title so everyone sees it and offers input.

I haven't seen anything beyond m2 > zelda and zelda > m2, but i'm sure there's as many people out there that believe m2 >> zelda as people that believe zelda >> m2. which means it's still in the middle and probably the most agreeable for everybody.

 

[KAOSTAR]

anyone who believes its more than > in either direction doesnt count.

because they are stupid.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If M2 has the advantage vs Zelda anywhere, it would be on Stadium. Kicks just kill too early on YS.