Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[The Good Doctor]

anyone who believes its more than > in either direction doesnt count.

because they are stupid.

We all know in the Pokemon universe....Mewtwo >>>>>>>> EVERYONE

 

[KAOSTAR]

so does upthrow and fair. Especially from a platform.

plus the point is that m2 doesnt get hit by that many kicks if he doesnt play like ****.


and yea, in pokemon m2 would **** just about everyone up.

 

[TheManaLord]

But he does get hit by lots of kicks. His hurtbox is ridiculous.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is the song that never ends

 

[otg]

This is the song that never ends

I like that one.

 

[KAOSTAR]

He is big, but can play the matchup very safe. Im not worried about zeldas kicks
(I am but Im confident I can avoid them.) well enough to win and also have the matchup in his favor.

and yea, are we gonna argue about the matchup again, or is this just, basically the song that never ends? Or just end it?

 

[t3h Icy]

Icy, just streamline the discussion please! Specific matchups. Put it in the title so everyone sees it and offers input.

Actually that's a really good idea.

Alright, we'll start off with Fox's Match-Ups, and everyone give their opinions, discuss any that stick out and we'll work through it that way. =)

And to conclude Zelda/Mewtwo for now, I'm going to leave it to Zelda > Mewtwo. When we get to either of them, we'll continue where we're leaving off here.

All match-ups in the brackets are from previous discussions. Just so all of that doesn't go to waste.

Fox's Match-Ups

Fox = Falco
Fox = Marth
Fox = Samus
Fox > Doc (Fox = Doc [Dogy])
Fox > Falcon
Fox > Ganondorf
Fox > Ice Climbers
Fox > Jigglypuff (Fox = Jigglypuff [Hungrybox, Darc])
Fox > Mario
Fox > Peach
Fox > Sheik
Fox >> DK
Fox >> Luigi (Fox > Luigi)
Fox >> Mr. G&W
Fox >> Pikachu
Fox >> Roy
Fox >> Y.Link (Fox >>> Y.Link)
Fox >>> Bowser
Fox >>> Kirby
Fox >>> Link (Fox >> Link)
Fox >>> Mewtwo
Fox >>> Ness
Fox >>> Pichu
Fox >>> Yoshi
Fox >>> Zelda

In my opinion, Fox = Jigglypuff and Fox > Sheik. The rest as far as I know are fine.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox > DK.

DK's grab game is just too good against Fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5ONU5ZRcM

 

[TheManaLord]

Really only on FD.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why would fox ever get grabbed by DK?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shhhh they mustn't know the secret.

Fox ***** DK for realz.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sveet, have you ever been bair'ed to grab? It's gay as hell. Then you get uaired onto a platform. If you miss the tech, you get uaired again, tech chased, regrabbed, uaired some more, and then knocked off the stage with a bair or up-b sweetspot.

Fox's nair loses to CC grab, and his dair loses to retreating bairs.

If you don't approach, though ... different story.

 

[Lovage]

ummm fox >> dk kiddos

and i think fox >>> g&w but thats just me

i agree with the rest of those tho

except MAYBE fox=doc

nah fox>doc

 

[The Good Doctor]

Fox>Doc
Fox is gay.......
gayyyyyy

Seriously though, It's hard to grab Fox with any character, and Doc needs his grabs in the match-up....

 

[ChivalRuse]

This chart is whack. I'm pretty sure HugS's existence is the only reason Fox = Samus. Apparently Samus has some hidden powers that make her **** Fox more than Sheik's tech chases and gimps, more than Puff's rests and nigh impervious bair spam, more than Peach's dsmash and chaingrabs. Yea, sure.

If Bum still played, nobody would even dare to say Fox >> DK.

 

[Pink Reaper]

If bum still played he'd get absolutely wrecked.

Fox has far beyond the old days where every character in the game could easily 0-Death him. DK's metagame stagnated in 2005, Fox's did not.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This chart is whack. I'm pretty sure HugS's existence is the only reason Fox = Samus. Apparently Samus has some hidden powers that make her **** Fox more than Sheik's tech chases and gimps, more than Puff's rests and nigh impervious bair spam, more than Peach's dsmash and chaingrabs. Yea, sure.

If Bum still played, nobody would even dare to say Fox >> DK.

You're focusing only on what those characters can do to Fox.

Although I don't really care for Samus in general, nor do I really have an opinion of her matchups except with Sheik, which I believe is nicely Sheik's favour.

But now is the time for Fox.

Fox > Sheik, or Fox = Sheik, I don't really care which gets put down but obviously I have a preference for the first one I suggested.

Sheik can tech chase him to death, gimp him really easily, auto knockdown throw, lots of auto-knockdowns if she anti-airs his Nair via F-tilt or just hits him when he's not ccing in general (sometimes when he is ccing too), aerial --> grab combo is gay, cc grab ***** poor approaches, dd boost grab can **** dash dance camps that aren't perfect, cc forces linear approaches, SH retreat fair is hard to punish, it's hard for him to punish her in general if she's careful, needles can kind of trade with lasers for damage if sheik's winning or equal stock, etc.

Fox can dash dance camp, laser camp, dash dance shield F-tilt and punish OoS if she's misspaced, has better bait game, can force her to approach kind of, u-throw combos are good, shine combos are good, cc > tilts at low percent if she's grounded and he's grounded, cc > jabs forever, cc shine is ****, spaced Bair is ****, edgeguarding is ****, it's hard for her to come down even against failed combos because of u-tilt priority and dash dance --> grab on baited nairs/bairs, etc.

 

[unknown522]

fox >> DK
fox > jiggs.

DK is too easy. PKM is one of the best DK players and he won't even do that matchup...not even on FD.

edit: fox >>> roy
fox >>> Y Link

 

[TheManaLord]

if Bum Still Played He'd Get Absolutely Wrecked.

Fox Has Far Beyond The Old Days Where Every Character In The Game Could Easily 0-death Him. Dk's Metagame Stagnated In 2005, Fox's Did Not.

2007 *

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Had a smashfest with Bum 2 days ago with him G Jman etc. Bum still ***** everybody. You guys need to come down to NY and realize

Edit-I gots vids but Im super lazy when it comes to getting them on my comp and splitting them. Maybe ill put up a match or somethin

 

[Tee ay eye]

Had a smashfest with Bum 2 days ago with him G Jman etc. Bum still ***** everybody. You guys need to come down to NY and realize

Edit-I gots vids but Im super lazy when it comes to getting them on my comp and splitting them. Maybe ill put up a match or somethin

WOOOW really?

was Bum even ****** Jman?

 

[D20]

Fox is far and away Young Link's worst match up.

Well, I'm glad I made my contribution...

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think Fox >>> Roy because Roy is very capable of landing grabs on Fox and has somewhat reliable ways to get Fox off the stage.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Fox>Doc
Fox is gay.......
gayyyyyy

Seriously though, It's hard to grab Fox with any character, and Doc needs his grabs in the match-up....

dunno fox is still up for grabs (teehee) for sheiks

 

[Dark Hart]

Fox = Jiggz
Fox > Samus
Fox >> M2

And CC ***** foxes approach for like 35%-60% depending on the character.

 

[Dark Hart]

I'd also like to propose Fox > Marth

 

[Alphicans]

Fox is far and away Young Link's worst match up.

Well, I'm glad I made my contribution...

Forgive my inability to interpret this, but are you saying it is easily his worst or not even close to his worst? Fox is definitely hard, but not as bad as falco imo.

Fox > marth. Interesting.... I'd agree with that actually. Camping him is pretty easy, and on a stage that is not FD, fox should have a pretty clear advantage. With stage striking it should really solidify this ratio.

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think Fox is any better than 55-45 on Marth. Marth has so many ways to deal with Fox and historically this has been viewed as one of the most even matchups in the game. It's true that Marth has kind of fallen off the radar but m2k still wrecks pretty much every Fox.

I also fail to see how Marth gets camped. Camping Marth means sacrificing stage control and when Marth doesn't give you much room to work with you get screwed due to his ridiculous dash-dance / range / priority / grab range. If Marth gets control against Fox near the edge, Fox is dead like 75% of the time.

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't think Fox is any better than 55-45 on Marth.

Sorry to break it to you, but 55-45 in Fox's favor means Fox wins lol.

I also fail to see how Marth gets camped. Camping Marth means sacrificing stage control and when Marth doesn't give you much room to work with you get screwed due to his ridiculous dash-dance / range / priority / grab range. If Marth gets control against Fox near the edge, Fox is dead like 75% of the time.

If a smart Fox is camping lasers, it forces Marth to approach. That in it of itself gives Fox the advantage. Marth is so limited in how he can approach a Fox other than dash dance and hope for a grab. Once the Marth comes towards you, Fox's dash dance does more wonders than Marths. Sure Marth can CC a grab and hopefully get that 0-death all Marths hope for, a smart Fox should already know this and be able to react accordingly.

 

[x After Dawn x]

marth's approach sucks against fox.

seriously, all he has to do is laser camp and then dd to bait marth into doing something.

 

[Dark Hart]

That's my point!!!! I play Fox vs Marth simply because it's that easy lol I mean, how hard is it not to go to FD in a tourney set? It's pretty simple: strike it, then ban it. You've just beaten Marth in tourney.

 

[Alphicans]

Getting uthrow onto platforms is still deadly. Marth by no means gets ***** by fox, it's just even any more I don't think. Fox can always make marth approach, and his grab game is only ever so slightly worse, but makes up for it with how many more grab set ups he has. Actually his grab game is overall better, just when comparing both grabs/throws individually, marth's is better.

 

[Dark Hart]

But like most if not all match-ups vs Fox, he shouldn't get grabbed. I also never said he gets *****, unless Fox > Marth means Marth gets *****

 

[Alphicans]

I've never seen a match where fox manages to not get grabbed. Not even the best foxes get away from that grab range.

 

[Dark Hart]

I've never seen a match where Mario ***** Pikachu, but apparently that's how the match-up goes.

 

[Alphicans]

How are those related? Mario vs pika rarely happens, marth vs fox happens all the time, and there is a plethora of matches on youtube where fox gets ***** by grabs. Remember I agree that Fox > Marth, but not because Fox can avoid the grab easily.

 

[Dark Hart]

I was just showing you the flaw in your argument. But if you agree than Fox > Marth then we're cool. I agree that if Marth gets a grab you're in trouble as Fox, but Fox has a lot of gay tools to not get grabbed. Most foxes are greedy and head right into Marth for the attack when that's not how they should be playing the match-up.

 

[Alphicans]

Your attempt to show a flaw in my argument was, to be put bluntly, ****ty as hell. As I said, watch any high level match of marth vs fox and you'll see that what I said is a pretty reasonable statement. My justification for Fox > Marth is that fox's grab game is, over all, better than marth's. So at this point marth doesn't have much going for him except his superior edge guarding.

 

[Dark Hart]

I agree, but I'm a **** so I'm going to be stupid about that stuff. I'd also agree that Fox's grab game is superior to Marth's in the match-up, even with Marth's CG.

 

[Winston]

The MUs you suggested look fine individually for the most part (Fox vs Samus seems kind of weird, but I play neither), but they don't seem to be consistent relative to each other.

For example, you have Fox > Sheik, Fox > Jiggs, and Fox > Falcon. Each is debatable individually, but I don't think anyone would argue that whatever advantage Fox has vs Sheik or Jiggs, it's much smaller than the one he has vs Falcon. The best solution is probably to put Fox = Sheik and Fox = Jiggs.