• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Crimson)S(hadow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
81
Location
salinas,ca
fox vs marth is very even.

even on pokemon stadium, a "fox" stage; it is very even. its either be uptilted to 50% on platforms or chaingrabbed to 30% anywhere else; where as fox has his upthrow-upairs and nair combos. both can edgeguard each other very well, and both can be really tricky about their recoveries
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
the utilt under the platforms stuff isn't as bad as it sounds if the fox knows what they're doing

fox ***** marth on stadium imo
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
DL > PS for marth against fox. stadium is really really bad for marth, the neutral stage is alright but has a lot of room for the opponent to run away with and all the transformations are horrible for marth and he has to camp them. If the opponent can force a fight during a transformation, marth will get messed up.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
Marth is more explosive than Fox, however, at those low percents.
This is true, fox can sometime be more like a rag doll.

Fox just has to be smart and not fun into blade, upthrow upair is too good. thats pretty much a gimmie. plus the ability to laser camp.

upsmash can **** oos if marth extends an attack.

Fox has just as good everything, except a projectile and more killing power. consistent combos at all percents and kill moves at lower ones. not to mention he has amazing gimping power from the ledge as well.

Chain throws require sooo much more work than flicking the c stick up and are stage location dependent.
 

null55

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
3,500
as far as neutrals are concerned it seems like Marth has the advantage to me...

i mean, that sword *****. if Fox doesn't have a lot of room to move, like he would on DL, it's definitely NOT going to be in his advantage. and on FD Marth is a ****ing ******. the rest are small *** stages in that stupid *** trianglular arrangement of platforms ****.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Fox just has to be smart and not fun into blade, upthrow upair is too good. thats pretty much a gimmie. plus the ability to laser camp.

upsmash can **** oos if marth extends an attack.

Fox has just as good everything, except a projectile and more killing power. consistent combos at all percents and kill moves at lower ones. not to mention he has amazing gimping power from the ledge as well.

Chain throws require sooo much more work than flicking the c stick up and are stage location dependent.
Fox needing to be smart and not being allowed to run into the sword becomes issue if Marth can space and also be smart. If they're both smart, it becomes extremely complicated and elaborate (spacing and baiting, that is). They both have very potent ground games against one another. Fox can dash dance / laser camp and be safe and get free punishes, sure, but only at the correct distances (or else lasers become free hits for Marth) and it isn't difficult for Marth to feign safety (or even have some decent safety) while he works to build his own ideal distance and maintain it.

I'm also vaguely inclined to believe that Marth's U-throw --> Moveset combo is worth more than Fox's U-throw --> Uair combo in the matchup. Especially when one figures that if need be you can switch comfortably to reaction-based tech chase (if you're fast enough you can get it) and some unique, largely inescapable tech traps.

U-smash OoS sounds like a pretty silly idea to weigh so heavily into the matchup because you already noted it has the requisite of Marth spacing poorly and I'd argue you need him to do more than that for it to work, since there's a plethora of spacing strategies for close-range moves to Marth that are all very potent and very safe. The low Fair --> dash behind shield is extremely good and completely immune to this U-smash nonsense, and basic shield grabbing (which is faster, too). There are a whole bunch of things Marth can (and should be) doing to avoid Fox having any usable OoS options sans jump back / wavedash back.

I'm not really fond of "Chain grab is harder than U-throw Uair" as a real argument. I mean, it is true, especially Marth's, but it doesn't sit well with me because a good Marth can do those CGs, has them memorized, has some situational responses for the situational cases when they arise, and can execute them just as fluidly as Fox can flick c-stick while airborne.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
@KK

I agree with you on the first paragraph. and yea you are right about upsmash oos being kinda silly.

as far as CG= hard and upthrow moveset

The reason I used fox upthrow upair being less difficult, while there being less options, its just as or more effective.

Even if you have the ability to chain throw well, thats like saying if I dont mess up I can tech chase them to death. Marths chain throw is most effective on FD where as foxs upthrow upair, or upthrow onto a platform and drill (assuming the dont smash off) into more upthrow upairs works every where and the efficiency doesnt really change.

I dont personally like the argument that difficulty should be used in place of effectiveness, because if it works better and is humanly possibly-the sky is the limit.
but realistically, fox will get upthrow upair kills more often then marth gets kills off the chain throw. It pretty much seems like the marth needs to be better because they have to look at more options(situations to deal with) to get maximum effeciency out of the moveset. His upthrow is more complex and requires more knowledge and skill to get into those kill move positions. Its also harder to do.

Marth has more options but fox doesnt need them, upthrow right into a kill move that can combo into itself, while leaving most oponnents in a position they dont want to be in(above fox).

marths is more complex which has its plus on the mental part of smash, but foxs is just more efficient. Its concrete, upthrow upair combos into blank and kills. Platforms only lower the kill percentage.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
**** lol, I keep forgetting that 45-55 is inherently even.

Because technically, its in somebody's favor lmao.

Yea fox marth is even. Fox is probably at that 55 tho.
 

Crimson)S(hadow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
81
Location
salinas,ca
most likely fox > jigglypuff. pay no attention to mango//hbox's puffs ****** 95% of foxes, because mango is mango and hbox lives in the space animal spartan state known as florida.

it can be really hard to grab a fox if he's using drills when he can. fox can kill jiggs at low percents and a really good punish for missed rest or if the fox dies fast. jiggs really only has rest and gimps to fear; so it really depends on how good the fox is at avoiding those. fox can just machinegun nairs without really having to worry about being outspaced; unless the jiggs is facing backwards

a good fox who has proper shuffles is hard enough to grab; and if he keeps vigilant to his shuffle mistakes and jigg's grab opportunities, its really hard for jiggs to catch fox with bad, rest-able DI. also theres the lazers which forces the jiggs to approach if she's losing; or if she wants to spam bairs from a full jump.

gimps can be painful if the jiggs camps the ledge, but if the fox is ahead he should just run to the other side and use little brother bullets to force the jiggs to approach. i don't really have a good offstage experience in the fox//jiggs matchup but it seems fox can sorta escape gimps by falling really far; since jiggs vertical movement is very slow. also fox can shorten phantasms; and if the jiggs wrongly tries to rest it shes basically dead or really close to it. different phantasm lengths//firefox angles can make it really tricky to edgeguard
 

xbombr

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
767
Location
Maryville, MO
45-55 usually involves a ****load of nit-picky differences that rarely ever surface in matches even amongst equal skill levels.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
But what if the advantage comes down to playstyle or player vs player matchup, for most of the matchups that are close, the real dispute isnt between the two characters that are playing but between the players.

I dont think there are any matchups that are dead even 50-50 except dittos. Things are always weighed more heavily by different people.

45-55 is more of a super slight advantage, slight enough that its neglected by playstyle. Anything higher than that even 44-56 I would say is slight advantage.

It just adds more trouble than its worth, even really seems to come into play when two parties have solid arguements for slight advantage. This is usually also backed up by tourney placings and can be described as even.
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
691
Location
Atlanta/birmingham
But what if the advantage comes down to playstyle or player vs player matchup, for most of the matchups that are close, the real dispute isnt between the two characters that are playing but between the players.

I dont think there are any matchups that are dead even 50-50 except dittos. Things are always weighed more heavily by different people.
yea thats fine then there wont be many = then (there are some like doc= mario, falco/n = marth, and apparently fox=samus)
= is only =. its the one of the most basic fundamentals of math. it portrays matchups incorrectly to others otherwise


edit: i just realized the chart changed O.o
icy i like the colored circels but those numbers are so counterintuitive its a little confusing when they dont add to 10. imo you should either do an arbitrary representation like >>>, >>, >, =, <,<<, <<<, or a 1-10 scale, but not a hybrid like that
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
icy i like the colored circels but those numbers are so counterintuitive its a little confusing when they dont add to 10. imo you should either do an arbitrary representation like >>>, >>, >, =, <,<<, <<<, or a 1-10 scale, but not a hybrid like that
I mostly added the numbers for the colourblind Smashers.

Also do we really have to stoop ourselves into using "≈" to keep people from delving into deep mathematics of what the exact definition of "=" means?
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Even if you have the ability to chain throw well, thats like saying if I dont mess up I can tech chase them to death.
Wait, no it's not! Marth's chaingrab is actually pretty easy to preform, and it's all guaranteed. Upthrow chaingrab+uptiltfollowup+aerial followup is 100% guaranteed regardless of DI and is essentially a free 70+ percent off of one grab.
Marths chain throw is most effective on FD where as foxs upthrow upair, or upthrow onto a platform and drill (assuming the dont smash off) into more upthrow upairs works every where and the efficiency doesnt really change.
Well, the effeciency does change a little since Marth can tech on the platforms. But you're right that it's still effective.

But you forgot to mention Marth's plethora of platform traps that prevent Fox from getting down. The top platforms on dreamland and battlefield are an exception of course, but Marth's platform game is almost as deadly as his chainthrow.
I dont personally like the argument that difficulty should be used in place of effectiveness, because if it works better and is humanly possibly-the sky is the limit.
but realistically, fox will get upthrow upair kills more often then marth gets kills off the chain throw.
Upthrow->uair doesn't kill from 0% though. In that sense Marth's chainthrow is far more effective because it is an immediate threat. Marth getting a grab anywhere between 0-70% can be death for Fox (and he can still combo for a good deal after that, it's just harder to control where you're sending Fox after that), while Fox has to wrack damage from other means before his kill combo actually kills.
It pretty much seems like the marth needs to be better because they have to look at more options(situations to deal with) to get maximum effeciency out of the moveset. His upthrow is more complex and requires more knowledge and skill to get into those kill move positions. Its also harder to do.
But the tradeoff is that it is more effective <_<
Marth has more options but fox doesnt need them, upthrow right into a kill move that can combo into itself, while leaving most oponnents in a position they dont want to be in(above fox).
But Marth doesn't die from one grab (exaggeration I know, I'm just emphasizing that you're weighing them incorrectly)



I'm just trying to show you that a grab for Marth means a lot more than a grab for Fox. You're saying that "Marth's followups are harder to perform, therefore he is at a disadvantage," but forgetting that they are not getting the same reward from those followups. Fox gets one move, 2 moves at max, while Marth gets a solid 70%+.

Platforms hurt this a bit, but then again platforms have other effects on the matchup.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
yeah i think marth combos fox waaaay harder than fox could ever combo marth. but on most stages fox has a much easier time getting hits in, plus he has lasers which help a little bit in tricking marth into doing a poorly spaced grab or dash attack or something.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Marth has an advantage on Fox. I was isolating and arguing one point and that point alone. KAOSTAR was implying that Marth's grab game is less efficient than Fox's because it is harder, but I wanted to counter it by pointing out that they don't get the same amount of reward so it's not a fair comparison to only look at how difficult they are.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
Marth = Fox

Fox/Jigglypuff and Fox/G&W discussion? Also Mango isn't getting back to me because he's not cool like Hungrybox or Darc, and I think Qerb left Fox either >> or >>> G&W (he gives G&W a 3/10 in his guide about the match-up).

Thoughts?
 

Devil Ray

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
1,107
Location
Seoul, South Korea
hmmm, i didn't want to say it...but i think fox has an advantage on marth. :ohwell::ohwell::ohwell:

i mostly just agreed with M2K about how it was the "most even" matchup in the game, but it can get really hard for marth. one shine can lead to like 50% and it's much easier to shine spike marth than most characters.

most will disagree, but if this matchup chart is designed to help ppl...i would be hard pressed to recommend using marth against fox just for the even matchup. it can pretty hard chasing that stupid furry basterd around
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
i think fox >>> g&w

g&w's approach is so insanely limited and punishable and his defense (wavedash back) is so see-through it's very very hard to lose as fox against g&w

he dies from uthrow uair at like 75 and has no answer to fox's shield pressure because his shield is so ****ty he'll get hit after like the second nair, and his roll is so terrible you can grab on reaction.


and ya fox=marth

even if one character did have a slight advantage, for the purpose of this chart it's still =
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
= is fine...

marth = fox.

been beat to death... marth gets 1 grab, he does serious damage. marth gets one non-grab, it leads to a grab or an edgeguard, which leads to death or lots of percent.

fox has more openings, and a gun, but lesser rewards.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
the only American GAW player I've ever seen was in my pool at pound 4. He was CGing everyone else (falcon and spacie players), but he couldn't grab me. I forgot his name, but he made it out of round 1 pools, though I 4-stocked him both games.

I've always believed it to be >>> for fox.
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
691
Location
Atlanta/birmingham
Do we really have to? -_-
your call its your chart. wouldnt take that much time (like 40 seconds right?) to replace the ones roughly even. if it was my chart i would make it as easy to understand as possible and theres no real reason not to differentiate between exactly even and roughly even.

alright so i feel that fox has a slight advantage on sheik (most other sheiks say its 45-55 too), so if close does become =, i submit that
sheik = fox
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
Alright, Fox >>> Mr.G&W will be pending, and we can leave Jigglypuff until we get to her specifically.

Fox/Sheik? I'm going with Fox > Sheik.

After that, we'll start the next character.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom