Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[xbombr]

I'll say this though: her ground game is pretty good vs marth. She can compete with his range with her f-tilt/f-smash/d-smash, which is really nice.

This and her actually having projectiles is the main reason that I feel it's < instead of <<. Marth doesn't wreck her, but she has a hard time getting stuff going sometimes.

The actual << characters DO wreck her AND she has a hard time getting stuff going.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So Dtilt doesn't wreck our recovery? The option that Samus takes 90% of the time isn't covered by it.

Simply shooting a missile can screw with Marth's spacing since he has to stop and attack it, shield it, or jump over it. All of those options have easy counters or put Samus in an advantageous position.

I said, and i quote, "Marth can actually dtilt any of samus' recovery options with proper timing" which is 100% true.

Later in my post I went through a few more reasonable ways to handle the grapple.

 

[xbombr]

Have fun reacting to the exact split second that we actually pull ourselves up.

 

[unknown522]

I said, and i quote, "Marth can actually dtilt any of samus' recovery options with proper timing" which is 100% true.

Later in my post I went through a few more reasonable ways to handle the grapple.

I knew that was possible. Also, you can f-smash/f-air/d-air her as well.

 

[Kyu Puff]

How many frames can you hit her out of her grapple like that?

 

[john!]

Is it just me or does the Marth start his dtilt BEFORE Samus starts reeling in the grapple? I mean, some people use frame-perfect play when analyzing matchups, but precognition is a bit much imo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know why people are ragging on Sveet for being right. It's not like he's advocating it as a good edgeguard against the sweetspot grapple. He already noted that there are much better options for handling the grapple and he even listed a bunch of them.

 

[Lovage]

Have fun reacting to the exact split second that we actually pull ourselves up.

ya thats not that hard

MR. BITTER

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lovage go finish your tech skill video with SW.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't know why people are ragging on Sveet for being right. It's not like he's advocating it as a good edgeguard against the sweetspot grapple. He already noted that there are much better options for handling the grapple and he even listed a bunch of them.

I'm asking because I want to know how useful it would be for ICs...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wasn't referring to you.

 

[xbombr]

ya thats not that hard

MR. BITTER

I'm not bitter, it just looks like he starts the dtilt before or at least the exact same instant of the grapple. You have to know the exact moment they're going to pull themselves up to do it unless they're just hanging there.

I'm not saying it can't be done or hasn't be done... It obviously can and has.

Something requiring that kind of timing is not shutting down recovery... I agree with the notion that Marth has better edgegaurds against Samus, but he has to commit himself to being offstage or on the ledge, meaning that he can't cover everything at once. Even though it's possible with his dtilt, as was shown, it doesn't do a very good job all the time.

Samus has too many options to say that Marth wrecks her recovery. Of course if you're psychic and can play completely frame perfect, then sure Marth wrecks Samus's recovery.

 

[KAOSTAR]

youtube game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j29On7dF2y0

samus vs samus is pretty even, depending on color.


I think Marth >> samus .

a well spaced patient marth, is pretty much in control the entire match.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

I just left it for now since Marth was the following character, and hopefully we'll get some Marth input.

i too shall youtube battle. for marth's response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPiv90eQDc
that may just be one of the best examples of what a sheik can do to marth

edit: its probably THE best, thats just disgusting to watch

 

[KAOSTAR]

i too shall youtube battle. for marth's response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPiv90eQDc
that may just be one of the best examples of what a sheik can do to marth

edit: its probably THE best, thats just disgusting to watch

LOl there is a reason m2k sheik dittos

ignore the part where he went fox tho

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

im pretty sure m2k like his fox vs sheik in a pinch
sheik>>> sheik. that matchup sucks

 

[TresChikon]

I'm not bitter, it just looks like he starts the dtilt before or at least the exact same instant of the grapple. You have to know the exact moment they're going to pull themselves up to do it unless they're just hanging there.

I'm not saying it can't be done or hasn't be done... It obviously can and has.

Something requiring that kind of timing is not shutting down recovery... I agree with the notion that Marth has better edgegaurds against Samus, but he has to commit himself to being offstage or on the ledge, meaning that he can't cover everything at once. Even though it's possible with his dtilt, as was shown, it doesn't do a very good job all the time.

Samus has too many options to say that Marth wrecks her recovery. Of course if you're psychic and can play completely frame perfect, then sure Marth wrecks Samus's recovery.

You are seriously giving Samus' recovery waayyy too much credit. It's just long; you can't deny that her options are very slow.

Even Falco has quicker options to the ledge.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Samus can recover from a much greater distance, and thats vertically or horizontally than falco

with or without a jump, with or without a grapple.

samus's recovery is legit, but....

Some characters like marth, who is one of the best edgeguarders if not the best, have options to deal with it.

Its not that easy to get that downtilt to hit, tho its not impossible. Marth just needs to be patient and time it correctly.

He can handle samus in pretty much every situation except when she recovers extremely high, and in this case she still needs to land and is at a disadvantage.

fair, fsmash, counter, bair (Bomb jumping)- check

fsmash, dtilt, fair, dair (grapple)- check

fsmash, dtilt, fair, dair, counter (up B)- check

fsmash, dtilt, fair, dair(wall jump)-check


I think marth has it covered

 

[xbombr]

You are seriously giving Samus' recovery waayyy too much credit. It's just long; you can't deny that her options are very slow.

Even Falco has quicker options to the ledge.

Where did I ever give Samus's recovery any undue credit?

Dtilt isn't a reliable option for stopping Samus's grapple recovery was the only thing that I was saying. Marth has to commit himself to one of her options. He either goes offstage or to the ledge to cover the grapple or he stays on and covers the UB unless she's out of range to UB directly on, then he takes the ledge no matter what, but at that point any character would be dead. It's plain and simple. There isn't anything wrong with it. It just means that he either chooses to cover one option safely or all options with a larger chance for error. He's still able to get the job done, you'll find that this is the case with nearly every character. The only exception I can think of might be Sheik where she can gay all options from the ledge, completely offstage, and from onstage via needles, long ranged aerials (to cover high options), and dsmash.

Yeah Samus has a long recovery. It's also got a lot of options. It's relatively slow, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Sure the speed hampers her a little bit, but I think people on these boards are WAY too hard on her recovery lately. Sure it might have been overrated in the past, but now it's being treated like it's Ness tier or something.

This has nothing to do with Falco either and his horrid recovery distance. Falco's only fast option to the ledge is his phantasm. Hilariously, Marth can knock him out of this with his even faster jab or dtilt and he's forced to use his totally vulnerable firebird. Samus at least has a chance of getting back if she's hit out of her recovery. Falco doesn't.

edit: Jiggs is pretty legit at edgegaurding too. Her offstage game is soooooo good. Marth can cover Samus's options pretty well, I'm not disputing that. Edgegaurding isn't even the reason that I think it's only <.

 

[Pi]

yes i've played good marths

if you refuse to recognize my points for whatever reason then so be it

idc what it says on this chart, looks like i wont' be referencing for anything after seeing the people who are taking place in deciding the matchups

next time m2k's in fl i'll get some matches recorded with him

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

umad kniht? I don't see why you're taking it so seriously. it's just some friendly discussion.

After hearing what you had to say, I'm able to accept that it's >, but still with due skepticism, it's definitely worse than your normal advantage.

 

[Pi]

ganon, puff, and shiek are on a whole other level than marth
if you're putting them at >>
marth is not there as well

and yea i get frustrated
i forgot how the internet worked for a second
nobody is ever wrong

basically what i keep hearing is that everything i've learned and done against marths for years and years in fact does not work against these fabled perfect spacing marths which i've yet to encounter
who knew.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@knihT (you were the guy I fought a few times before leaving Colbol's house right?), not to say that your opinion is wrong but....I have very little Samus experience. I'm playing 100% on theory, so don't use me to judge what the matchup is supposed to be like (after all, I'm trying to learn it while fighting you).

I guess combining experience fighting me, QDVS, and Skrach does mean a little bit though. Even in the off chance that none of us know the matchup, it's still fighting 3 very different styles so it's still valuable experience.

Oh, and one more thing. Not all >>s are equal. Marth vs Samus could just be one of the lower end >>s or one of the higher end >s,(because I think it's worse than most of the >s listed. There's no way in hell Marth doesn't beat Samus harder than Fox beats Sheik). I guess it's the latter though, since I can't see any>>s that this matchup is harder than by comparison.

 

[Pi]

i recognize that most people don't know the matchup, admittedly you and skratch have both said that you lack major knowledge, but you are both smart players who have been in the scene a long time, and you in particular have amazing spacing, seriously, tippers seem op when you land em as often as you do, which seems to be a primary reason for why people keep saying the matchup is >>

and yea i know not all >>'s are equal
but to put marth on the same level as ganon puff and sheik?
no

i'm all for playing you more, if there's some smashfests going down just lmk and i'll try to get there


the only marths who i've fought who -know- the matchup, who have said themselves, are my friend zer0 and another friend who's brother plays a samus. but i hesitate to mention either of them because they are unknown.


it seems a double standard to me though, to say that a marth who knows the matchup makes it >> when i'm a samus who knows the matchup saying it's >


i guess i could compare it to the worse matchups
what ganon has on samus over marth:
1) a better fair which eats through more of samus's moves than marths, also kills samus, also can hit samus shield spaced prefectly or poorly without getting punished too hard, at most he gets UB'd and gets a chance at another aerial where as marth can get naired if it's poorly timed/spaced
2) better shield pressure with jabs
3) better edgeguard, bair fair and uair all either kill samus or put her in a terrible spot, also his double jump makes for faster more unpredictable edgeguards than marth's bair & dj
4) better pressure from below , coming down from above a ganon, or being on a platform above a ganon is far more scary to me than a marth, mainly cause ganon's **** kills at lower %'s and puts you farther out at lower %'s than marths, if the marth wants to juggle me up to 200% with upairs it's whatever, it's still going to take a tipper fsmash, ftilt, uptilt, side b or whatever, all of which can be punished, ganon however has reliable kills in almost all his aerials.

puff:
1)better OoS punishes on dash attack, and all her smashes (rests)
2) better edgeguard, when puff comes out to play with samus he has so many opportunities for a bair which either kills you or puts you in a bad spot
3) better shield pressure, spaced aerials coupled with puffs aerial maneuverability make for an extremely annoying shield pressure game.
-note; i have a fair ammount of puff experience as well, the brother of the marth i play constantly plays puff, i usually just light shield so puffs aerials hit me far enough away to make for a safe wd oos
4) can't be combo'd as hard as marth can, very hard to get hits in
5) far easier punishes for whiffed moves samus throws out
6) i'd say about the same or maybe a little better, factoring rests, killability on samus. bair, upair, upsmash/rest OoS, nair fsmash, gimping

sheik:
1) better grab game, leads into kills, which counters what a lot of samus's are use to doing, shielding.
3) needles to gimp, and a projectile in general to compete with samus's helps quite a bit.
4) tilts that are quick enough to prevent shield grabs, yet can be spaced to make UB's risky
5) being in the air vs shiek is worse than marth, especially if you can die from a uair or fair
6) better edgeguard game, needles are a more spammable reliable safer method of removing samus's grapple (which i still claim is harder than you all make it seem. From the time you air dodge to the last second you can grapple is like a full second or two, wait for an action and then pop your grapple. I've even hesitated completely when i know they're going to commit to hitting me, not used my grapple, and gotten hit after my air dodge, thus saving my grapple)

i have two friends who main ganon/cfalc
i have a decent amount of ganon experience
it's on another level
and tbh i beat the my puff friend's puff more than i beat my marth friends marth. but i still see how ****ing gay that matchup is

the marth knows my playstyle, he catches wavelands/dashes that surprise every other person i play against, he dash attacks under missiles that force shields/defensive actions on every body else i play against
he dairs and bairs me OoS on **** that surprises me some times
he knows the samus matchup as much as i know the marth matchup, and we both know each others playstyles, but the **** carry's over.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I guess linking YouTube videos isn't a good way to make a point.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@kniht
yea > is still representing a range. Its just minimizing chance for error.

What may be off is your interpretation of what >, >>, >>> really means.


Just take a step back and think about what you think the lower end of Marth>>Samus is percentage wise. The re evaluate your argument.

If you still think its the same then whatever, but I just noticed ppl arent always clear on what they are really advocating using the greater than and less than symbols.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

There's no way in hell Marth doesn't beat Samus harder than Fox beats Sheik.

bad example thats 55-45. thats not even a full deviation from =

so i was brainstorming this might be a good suggestion/ help people who think in ratios

50-50 =
55-45 ? (seriously needs another symbol, its too close to even) i suggest ≥
60-40>
65-35 ? (maybe >, but it depends on how someone assigns non quantitative descriptors)
70-30>>
75-25 >>> (should be >> but 75-25 is basically impossible)
80-20>>>
90-10>>>

100-0 not possible

the bolded ones seem to get the most arguments over how to portray the match up.
*****as a side note ratios ending in 0 are all standard deviations and the ones that end in 5 are in between said variations

edit: i flipped the signs wrong

 

[Hazygoose]

Is it just me or does the Marth start his dtilt BEFORE Samus starts reeling in the grapple? I mean, some people use frame-perfect play when analyzing matchups, but precognition is a bit much imo.

lol
20 points to john

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In that gif i started the dtilt and the grapple pull on the same frame.

How i consider matchups:
50-50: =
45-55: >
40-60: >
35-65: >>
30-70: >>
25-75: >>>

 

[KAOSTAR]

I personally think that 45-55 is close enough to where it comes down to player style not character selection, assuming equal skill.

I would use the about equal sign for that.
50-50 =
55-45 ≈
60-40 >
65-35 >>
75-25>>>

not saying my way is better, or even good. Thats just kinda how I look at it. and yea the ranges are a little skewed to the right. Its because I dont think there are really any 100-0 90-10 etc.

most the the controversy comes closer to even

Edit: I just saw sveets post

 

[TheLake]

Yaaay marth

Its kinda hard to run into >>> matchups now adays

aside from like top tiers vs bottom tiers

but like maybe back in the day....but i dont think any high tier absolutely ***** another now a days but

basicly we are all talking from our own experiences sooo kihts post about samus is pretty legit

marth ***** samus pretty bad but i wont sit here and say i havent been four stocked at pound 4 by hugs

then again id just go zelda soo

speaking of which


marth >> zelda

its not **** becaaaause

you with your **** finisher
i get my **** finisher for free

and if you dont sweet spot

that dash attack to edghog is coming


and uhh kicks got range

kicking swords is fun

it can be a hard knock life

but we zeldas dont have TOO much trouble with marths

we play the ddr (air game) while they sport guitar hero (ground game...?)

we groove to a different beat

just marth has a gay grab

GAY!

 

[BBQ°]

I agree with kaostar

 

[KAOSTAR]

@the lake

I hope ur this much help when we get back to m2 zelda LMAO.

 

[t3h Icy]

(What people have suggested thus far)

Marth >> ICs
Sheik >> Marth
Marth >> Peach
Marth >>> Roy
Marth >>/> Samus

I PM'd a few Marth players, but none of them responded. Must be a Marth thing. =P

Fly, Ninten and Kyu; thoughts on ICs?

 

[TheManaLord]

*can't wait for zelda m2 discussion to start up again*

I'm waiting on the edge of my seat!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I really don't think marth peach is as much as >> in his favor. I, however, have no basis or reasoning behind this.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Keep it Marth >> IC's.

There's no way it can be Marth > IC's. Marth's jab and SH FF fair keep the IC's out. Ice blocks aren't a very effective projectile against him (even desynched), as he can simply shield the first, wavedash out of shield fsmash, and his attack will go through the second ice block to hit you.

Fsmash is risky, but if it connects, it does an excellent job of separating the IC's. Dtilt is virtually unpunishable on IC's shields and often shield stabs them. Utilt has unbeatable priority, and if IC's ever get put above Marth, they probably won't make it down without taking significant damage and/or Nana dying/Popo getting fsmash offstage.

On the other hand, the match-up doesn't favor Marth enough to be Marth >>> IC's. The Ice Climbers can combat Marth's fairs with dash attack. Poorly spaced fairs can be CC'ed -> JC grab/dsmash. Marth lacks killing power on larger stages - thus, if he gets too caught up in fsmashing, the IC's will eventually shield it and will punish with wavedash oos dsmash/grab. Ice blocks have some utility in forcing Marth to defend and sometimes approach. Marth also has trouble regaining his feet once launched into the air, as IC's uair is disjointed and potent. Predictably landing also gets him grabbed. Marth can be pseudo chaingrabbed in such wise as to work him towards the ledge to set-up for a handoff which will almost certainly lead to his death. Marth's lightness makes him prone to early kills off the top from charged usmashes out of grabs. In short, IC's' punish game is just too good for Marth to have a >>> advantage over them.

 

[Niko45]

(What people have suggested thus far)

Marth >> ICs
Sheik >> Marth
Marth >> Peach
Marth >>> Roy
Marth >>/> Samus

I PM'd a few Marth players, but none of them responded. Must be a Marth thing. =P

Fly, Ninten and Kyu; thoughts on ICs?

Maybe I'm just more conservative in my matchup ratings personally but I think these are all one > too much. Marth doesn't just trash these characters in his sleep like this seems to indicate. They all can punish the crap out of Marth and while there's a visible advantage it's really not at all like he just shuts these characters down completely.

Then on the flip side the Marth v Sheik is exaggerated, it's clearly Marth's worst matchup but that says nothing when all of his matchups are really moderate imo. And also people saying its advantage CF over Marth just because Falcon can win sometimes lol. I mean, I can't remember ever losing to a CF who I felt was not a way better player than me overall.

Marth has very moderate matchups because he doesn't have a shine or a grab => **** that just trashes the bad characters. All his matchups require precise spacing to achieve a very general advantage. He doesn't have a sheik dthrow which just appears broken in some matchups and creates noticably larger advantages. Take Samus for instance. You need to deal about 3x as much damage to beat Samus as Samus needs to beat you. Do you really think that can possibly be an extremely lopsided matchup under those circumstances? That's kind of a generalization, but seriously, think about that. The hits come easier but the kills are all circumstantial and Samus can do some things once she hits you.

EDIT: @chival about dtilt being unpunishable vs ICs shield - I think if nana is hit by the dtilt popo can still punish. Not sure on that tho, I may just be doing something wrong.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^No d-tilt really is safe on block. You can't spam d-tilts all day, but they can't punish you for throwing one out. Actually, no character in the game can punish a single spaced d-tilt. They can only try to interrupt a second one, which some characters are incapable of doing (like Ice climbers).

 

[ChivalRuse]

One thing IC's can do is SH fair over the second dtilt. But that's risky because the Marth could fsmash after the first dtilt.