Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Niko45]

Fox can also just time his invincibilty on the ledge so that marth has to up B on to the stage through an invincible fox. The fox can just ledge hop and up air or better yet do regular stand up and up smash, which will kill on most stages in the very low 100s.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

i think falcon has an easier time with sheik than marth does >_>

What.

No.

 

[john!]

Yeah Sveet, no offense but I think you're a little bit biased there... > Marth... >> Falcon.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth can beat Sheik. Falcon can only try.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth > samus, marth >>> roy. make it happen.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

double post because i don't give a ****

What.

No.

Yeah Sveet, no offense but I think you're a little bit biased there... > Marth... >> Falcon.

hmm, falcon can combo and edgeguard sheik very well and has a hard time hitting/grabbing sheik. Marth can't hit sheik, combo her very well, or edge guard her very well.

marth has one of the best recoveries in the game (as far as safely coming back) but sheik can gimp him better than even fox. Read KK's posts and then realize that he is not exaggerating anything.

If marth is lucky he might be able to get uthrow->utilt->fair->fair combo then sheik techs and you can't follow the techs without guessing because marth's dd is too small.

sheik's fair beats marth's fair
sheik's bair outranges and beats marths fair
sheik has a projectile
sheik has very simple easy auto combos
after sheik combos marth is always in very bad position and its nearly impossible to get down.

The matchup is >> if you play vs a good sheik. If you play someone who mains fox/falco/falcon and gets mad at you winning and they grab sheik its only a > matchup.

lets see, what can falcon do? If he ever grabs, stomps or knees sheik on the ground he can combo, and done properly can lead into a knee followup and edgeguard. to edgeguard falcon just edgehogs to reverse knee, rinse&repeat.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't know if I should believe KK or Dark Sonic!

 

[Nintendude]

If marth is lucky he might be able to get uthrow->utilt->fair->fair combo then sheik techs and you can't follow the techs without guessing because marth's dd is too small.

lolwut?

Marth is great at getting things started against almost everyone because of how good his dash-dance is. It's old school but it's just as relevant as it was in the earlier days of Melee.

Falcon gets punished way harder from Sheik than Marth does and gets edgeguarded way more consistently. That's a big factor in the differences in the matchups, though I think Sheik-Falcon is borderline between >> and >.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik has the longest tech rolls with the lowest lag, and while marth's dd is very fast to start up, its very slow when covering distances. Sheik can usually choose the farthest option from marth and get away. If marth starts predicting this she can get away with some easy mixups. Most of the time if you follow sheik's tech on reaction she will be able to get a spotdodge->**** or dsmash/jab/jump

this is very different than vs fox/falco/falcon where you can tech chase them all day with dd.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I will livestream. **** YouTube lmfao get outta here I played in like 07

but I'm posting the link on gamefaqs. You'll see how many gfaqs nuggas show up to watch. ****ing gfaqs nation represent

Gamefaqs nikkas is harsh lmao. They dont play around

Edit: and Ill have to save up some cash to frustrate the hell out of your zelda at an EC tourney.

Zelda is only effective when they can hit the target. Too bad my m2 is superior. Ill take all 8 minutes if I need to. and Im not a very patient player, but its more than money on the line. Its the m2 zelda matchup. Kick logic out and do the impossible. Fight the powah *****es

 

[t3h Icy]

Ahem.

Marth >>> Roy
Marth > Doc
Marth >>/> Samus

What do you think?

 

[Niko45]

Marth's fair beats sheik's fair. Marth's fair also beats sheik's bair but you have to space anticipating the leg sticking out. Sheik actually really doesn't edgeguard Marth that well if you take the right angle, and not at all if she doesn't have time to get on the ledge. Plenty of the time she has time for this, but not always, and she's still just going to force you on stage unless you make a mistake and get bair'd. Once she gets you on stage, she'll stand up and grab again or ledgehop dair and try to continue combos in towards the stage which you will eventually at least escape with a chance to do something back, or at certain percents she may be able to just kill you with up air/up smash.

As bad as that may be, it doesn't take a whole paragraph to describe what happens to falcon offstage vs Sheik. Falcon just dies.

At 0 Marth can CC grab a lot of sheiks stuff which is great because you need to grab her. He also has very small windows to pull off big combos on sheik that will often require a well-timed, well-executed edgeguard in order to get a kill and avoid the nightmare of dealing with a sheik at too high % to combo (like 75%, lol) but too low to kill for a nice long while which is clearly the point at which Marth loses (needing many openings vs an opponent that consistently, at any %, gets a whole lot from one opening).

Compared to Falcon, Marth is much better equipped from neutral stance and also in recovery, while CF has better punish on sheik. They're both < Sheik imo.

 

[TheManaLord]

I can agree with Falcon > Sheik

it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Once matchups are found to be one way or another they tend to be extremely exaggerated. Falcon has to camp a lot with dash dancing and bair. It's a losing battle but he can punish very well

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I'm pretty sure most will agree that Marth > Doc and Marth >>> Roy.

marth-samus is a bit more controversial

 

[Charlesz]

Samus and marth is not really controversal. Marth wrecks samus, go ask m2k.

 

[Divinokage]

I agree that Marth ***** Samus, I personally played that match-up both ways with Vwins.. and ya.. it's really tough for Samus. I mean considering my Marth is trash and I still was able to beat him lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth's fair beats sheik's fair. Marth's fair also beats sheik's bair but you have to space anticipating the leg sticking out.

This is all correct if the Marth has proper spacing. It is my general belief that Sheik's ability to wreck Marth's approach spacing by her quick, short movements combined with her body contortions (especially when she crouches) and her comparable range makes the spacing war favourable to her, however.

Sheik actually really doesn't edgeguard Marth that well if you take the right angle, and not at all if she doesn't have time to get on the ledge.

Angles or not, Sheik's edge game is perfectly equipped to counter Marth's Up+B. And on most stages she can needle him out of his Up+B and then do silliness. Admittedly it's not as good as her usual stuff, but she's far from helpless.

Marth is better in neutral stance because of sword and being a good character. He also takes less damage when he's punished. In exchange, his edgeguarding demands extreme, extreme precision and his combo game is very percentage specific on her.

Falcon is better in advantageous position because of stupidly good edgeguarding against her and because Uair ***** her when she's above him. He automatically dies when he's punished by a handful of her moves, however.

I personally think Falcon is better at shutting down an aggressive Sheik than Marth is. But I think they both suck against a gay, patient one.

 

[TheManaLord]

Marth >> Samus

Until we get a better system with more deviations, some matchups are going to be viewed wrong by some but correct by others. Instead of going lower, its a safer bet to do >> than > considering marth does **** samus pretty good

 

[xbombr]

Marth-Samus isn't really that bad...

I really think it's closer to < than <<, although I can see why people who don't main either character would think it's <<. But since they don't main either character or haven't taken either character seriously, then their opinion means infinitely less.

 

[Niko45]

Marth > Samus is my vote. She can nair edgeguard, she lives forever on some stages, and she gets charge shots after kills. It's not a total wipeout.

 

[TheLake]

marths not into chicks so samus's charms are nullified

marth >> samus

 

[smakis]

on a sidenote i would like to add popo to the chart, mainly because when nana dies popo becomes a totally different character and has a need of more indepth discussion

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think that Marth vs. Samus is that lopsided. It's an attrition war of pokes since Marth cannot combo her very well, and Samus is good at handling a match paced like that. Samus is able to control the tempo since Marth can't camp her with projectiles. F-tilt and her wavedash out of shield are excellent tools for getting hits in on Marth. A few years ago the only Marths that HugS really lost to also happened to be like top-3 in the country (Ken, Azen). He also took Ken to last set, last game, last stock at Evo World. It's hard to really gauge how the matchup has changed due to a lack of Samus players but the fundamentals haven't changed one bit, and those fundamentals are what define how the match is played.

Marth > Samus

 

[KAOSTAR]

The marth pretty much needs to mess up for samus to do anything. When the matchup is played correctly samus is just getting hit most of the time.

marth>>samus
marth<shiek
and I can agree that marth>doc, I know that falcon sheik is a bit exxaggeratted. but I dont think its in falcons favor, but its not out of the question. All falcon really has to do is avoid getting grabbed.

 

[Nintendude]

A big component of matchups is a character's ability to force openings and take advantage of them. Samus's ability to control the tempo of a match and hold ground well allows her to do just that. You can't argue matchups by saying "theoretically if someone does this perfectly...." because all the best players make, or are forced to make, these kind of subtle mistakes.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I didnt use the word perfect.

I said if its played correctly. Marth should stay fairly close to samus, no pun intended.

jabs, and dtilt, and ftilt are pretty good against samus WD tilt game. oos marth can punish a dtilt, or dsmash with a grab which can lead into more. Marth also edgeguards samus pretty well. It jus takes longer.

Missiles can easily be faired thru. or jabbed for that matter. Its really not that big a deal if marth is over the stage.

Marth can deal with every thing samus has to offer, but its not the other way around. I think the fact that samus can edgeguard marth and has two projectiles and a good recovery are the things that keep it from being
marth>>>samus

For a matchup to be really bad there doesnt need to be crazy 0-death combos or anything. Just marth should take alot less hits in this matchups and give alot more. Most of the match is samus recoverying

 

[ChivalRuse]

F-tilt and her wavedash out of shield are excellent tools for getting hits in on Marth.

Don't forget CC dsmash and dash attack. Broken!

I'd be willing to support Marth > Samus over Marth >> Samus anyday.

 

[xbombr]

I love how the people who comment that Marth > Samus give reasons, while the people who say otherwise don't say anything other than they agree or that Marth outranges Samus (which his range isn't really that much better and his ground moves clank with Samus's tilts. Dash attack gets under his FAir if timed properly. And Samus has a projectile game.)

Falcon has to avoid getting knocked down at all and hit by Sheik's most common attacks while attempting to get off massive combos. Low % FAir -> grab isn't that hard. Some %'s ftilt (which goes through all of Falcon's aerials) combos into grab. Any % where tilts and dash attacks knock him over set him up to be disposed of. Needles can be used to break his dash dancing and also as a way to set up moves, including grabs.

All Sheik has to avoid is spammed aerials that she can outprioritize. Falcon has to basically avoid Sheik's moveset entirely (Barring the Chain, DB, and UB) while he has no method to cover his approach.

Sheik is easily >> than Falcon since all he has on her is combos, but he has no means to set them up and Sheik tech chases him at least as hard as (probably harder than) he combos her and she's much safer in setting it up and much safer in general.

 

[TheManaLord]

that's all normal level junk. falcon shouldn't spam aerials or ever approach. can easily avoid needles.

 

[VGmasta]

I still say Marth>>Doc. Just my outlook. Doc has too work to hard to close space against Marth. And all Marth literally has to do is back away from any pressure Doc tries to close in with. And Marth f-airs makes all the pills WORTHLESS.

 

[Nintendude]

I didnt use the word perfect.

I said if its played correctly. Marth should stay fairly close to samus, no pun intended.

jabs, and dtilt, and ftilt are pretty good against samus WD tilt game. oos marth can punish a dtilt, or dsmash with a grab which can lead into more. Marth also edgeguards samus pretty well. It jus takes longer.

Missiles can easily be faired thru. or jabbed for that matter. Its really not that big a deal if marth is over the stage.

Marth can deal with every thing samus has to offer, but its not the other way around. I think the fact that samus can edgeguard marth and has two projectiles and a good recovery are the things that keep it from being
marth>>>samus

For a matchup to be really bad there doesnt need to be crazy 0-death combos or anything. Just marth should take alot less hits in this matchups and give alot more. Most of the match is samus recoverying

People really neglect the potency of missiles even against characters who can just swipe them away. For example, if you safely missile cancel a little more than a roll's distance away from Marth, it doesn't matter what Marth does, you are putting pressure on him that can lead to an opening. If you anticipate a shield or jab from Marth, you can just dash in and grab him. If he does short-hop fair, you can poke him with f-tilt while he's still lagging. If he jumps then he's in a weak position and if he retreats he's losing control of the stage.

Yes, of course Marth has options for getting around Samus's stuff. That's why it's in Marth's favor, but it doesn't mean that Marth owns Samus.

>>> matchups are basically matchups where a character is completely incapable of approaching, has no answer whatsoever to a particular tactic, or is really bad at punishing mistakes (combined with poor approach).

 

[xbombr]

that's all normal level junk. falcon shouldn't spam aerials or ever approach. can easily avoid needles.

So I suppose that DD camping wins him the match because it racks up all kinds of damage. Oh wait, he can't really do that either vs. someone with a decently fast projectile.

If he never approaches and Sheik never approaches (which neither should I guess), then if Falcon gets hit by a single needle, then he loses. He either loses by it timing out or he has to approach and get *****. He has no way to do a single point of damage without approaching a patient Sheik. Which we assume that he's playing a gay Sheik since that style is obviously the best.

Do you even play this match up vs. anyone decent with Sheik? I've honestly never heard of any Falcon main that doesn't ***** about this match up and say it's Falcon's worst (or one of his worst).

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

jabbing a missile is completely safe.

I hope you're joking when you say you can grab him out of a jab.

this is all even assuming that Marth will LET Samus get off a missile, let alone missile cancel.

I'd be okay with >, but I'd say it's closer to >>. It'd easily be > if only Samus could ****ing shieldgrab or grab like any other character barring Link.

 

[xbombr]

lol Link's grab is actually safer since you have less time to react to it. I agree that grabbing Marth is a horrible idea without the element of surprise on your side. You definitely can't do it too much.

Marth can ON REACTION grab Samus out of her grab animation.

I still think it's < because Samus isn't totally helpless and the outranging is minimal like in the Puff and Ganon match ups.

 

[KAOSTAR]

People really neglect the potency of missiles even against characters who can just swipe them away. For example, if you safely missile cancel a little more than a roll's distance away from Marth, it doesn't matter what Marth does, you are putting pressure on him that can lead to an opening. If you anticipate a shield or jab from Marth, you can just dash in and grab him. If he does short-hop fair, you can poke him with f-tilt while he's still lagging. If he jumps then he's in a weak position and if he retreats he's losing control of the stage.

Yes, of course Marth has options for getting around Samus's stuff. That's why it's in Marth's favor, but it doesn't mean that Marth owns Samus.

>>> matchups are basically matchups where a character is completely incapable of approaching, has no answer whatsoever to a particular tactic, or is really bad at punishing mistakes (combined with poor approach).

No missiles are good.

but they are just alot better vs characters who cant handle them.

Missiles dont really surprise anyone. You know they are coming by the sound and the fully extended arm cannon. Powershielding at close range is a viable option because of their set speed, straight path, and AV Qs. Then samus has to deal with the missiles herself.

The ones that can just go around or through them (ability to do both)typically can deal with samus approach at the same time. Cuz hers really isnt all that good. She is slow thru the air, has decent but predictable shield pressure, and her tilts can be dealt with, plus her grab is slow. Yes it still is a factor, but 1/3 of the time it leads to getting punished and the punishes out of grab are not amazing.

Characters that have to do either one are the ones that usually get missile trapped.

MArth can jump back fair and WLND forward to dodge the missile and keep his ground while potentially being able to punish. Samus would have to commit to something for your missile combo thing to work and if she doesnt you are in the same situation as before, but with no missile.

 

[Alphicans]

Just for the sake of doing it...

Marth > Link >_>. Either that or Marth >>> y.link, but that seems way too extreme.

 

[KirbyKaze]

falcon shouldn't spam aerials

*stares really hard*

That's almost all the good Falcons do rofl. That and like some kind of movement camping.

 

[Nintendude]

jabbing a missile is completely safe.

I hope you're joking when you say you can grab him out of a jab.

this is all even assuming that Marth will LET Samus get off a missile, let alone missile cancel.

I'd be okay with >, but I'd say it's closer to >>. It'd easily be > if only Samus could ****ing shieldgrab or grab like any other character barring Link.

I'm pretty sure it works - I've done it to people before. Running in with a dash-grab is moderately fast and if Marth cancels a missile with jab he gets that clashed hit recoil lag. The key is Samus has to anticipate it based on Marth's positioning because the timing window is really small. It's a very minor example - no reason to discuss this further.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

It doesn't work.

And there's no need to grab samus out her grab. Just short hop, fast fall, and charge a tipper fsmash while you laugh at Samus' silliness and terrible grab.

Whatever though. I'm fine with both so there's no longer any need for my participation.

 

[xbombr]

*stares really hard*

That's almost all the good Falcons do rofl. That and like some kind of movement camping.

I was under this impression too. lmao

They just DD camp or run around platforms and the lower part of the stage randomly, then spam NAir to approach. They'll stomp you if you're being predictable or they'll UAir if you go above them. You'll see knee approaches every now and then too.

Once they get a hit, they just combo you.

It doesn't work.

And there's no need to grab samus out her grab. Just short hop, fast fall, and charge a tipper fsmash while you laugh at Samus' silliness and terrible grab.

Whatever though. I'm fine with both so there's no longer any need for my participation.

No there isn't a need, but it was an example of how slow and unsafe her grab is. If you do manage to grab her out of her grab you can uthrow and keep her up there pretty much as long as you want to though.