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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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It works in actuality, which is good enough.

Marth can deal with it, but for the most part he can get grabbed, such as laser to grab, sb to grab things of that nature.

You just have to be on point most of the time, otherwise you have little time to react to it which leads you to get grabbed
 

xbombr

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Of course Marth CAN get grabbed, but the point is that it's a mindgame and it should only work when it's unexpected. Samus combos pretty well from her grabs so it's worth a try every now and then, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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Yea, that was why I said she gets punished like 1/3 of the time going for grabs.

my only point was that it was a decent mindgame.

Its on a different level then stopping acting as if your controller is broken and then attacking when their guard is down.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
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If Samus's grab is so impossible to use then why does HugS land plenty of grabs against really good players? His use of grab is actually a big thing that separates him from other Samus players imo.
 

xbombr

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Landing grabs with Samus is all about reads and being unpredictable with it.

HugS happens to be very good at both of those. HugS is good at getting away with a lot of things because of his experience. For instance, he doesn't get punished for UB OoS as much as he probably could be.
 

t3h Icy

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The single Ice Climber idea is actually good. Want me to add Popo?

Hopefully Fly, Kyu and Ninten can fill in the match-ups. =)
 

Dingding123

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:o very handy and accurate thread. However, aside from fox and sheik I think that there shouldn't be any other -3 matchups for link. Falco and falcon may be a pain, but they aren't as nasty as fox or sheik can be against link. Link can gimp those two MUCH more easily.

Also, I've gotta disagree with link vs ganon and marf being -2 matchups - especially marf. That one should be -1
at WORST, if not even.
 
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there actually aren't many of those matches

the only top level Samus is HugS nowadays.

I think he might have played Falcomist at last month's SF monthly. I'm pretty sure HugS lost. But Falcomist isn't exactly a top-level Marth either.

If there is a recent Hugs/M2K video, I really wanna see it.
 

Niko45

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Not every missile that comes at you is going to be with you standing there waiting to jab them. Comparably to doc's pills, they don't seem like a problem initially because you can just swipe them away but you still have to deal with them, and situationally (like after you've gotten hit already) they can force you out of position.

There's no reason Marth v Samus should be any worse than Marth v Peach/doc/ICs where basically the same dynamic is taking place where Marth can keep them out well but they can hurt him when they hit him. Samus may honestly be better equipped than some with her CCs and OOS game, plus just hanging around forever.

And on the issue of "Marth shouldn't be getting hit if he plays correctly", you can't overlook that Marth's punish is just terrible on Samus. This means Samus can take much more risks than characters typically can against Marth, because there's very little consequence for it. So yea, throw out a dsmash, see if it gets under the shield. What's the worst that can happen? Get grabbed? Fair out of shield? Meanwhile her payoff is pretty nice if that lands. It's way easier to break Marth's spacing if you don't have to be too concerned about missing or getting hit. The matchup just doesn't play out as linearly as I think some people are making it out to.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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i disagree. Samus is less equiped than peach and ICs (but not doc)

if marth plays too defensively, peach gets a turnip which increases her options a lot. if he is too aggressive he can get dash attacked or shield grabbed or dsmashed. Marth has to play fairly perfectly in order to completely shut peach out.

ICs have some trouble getting in due to their reliance on ground game and less range. they make up for it in their overall better ground movement and their ability to punish very well.

for samus, if marth plays too defensive he has nearly no negatives. samus could shoot a missile and approach behind it, but those are easy to powershield or avoid in other ways. Her ranged approaches are basically just ftilt which is mediocre at best vs marth. Samus shouldn't get an opportunity to CC smash unless marth approaches her on the ground with a fair instead of nair or dtilt. She can keep him locked to the edge fairly well if she gets him there, though.

IMO marth is almost as bad for samus as sheik is, maybe equally as bad.
 

Niko45

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for samus, if marth plays too defensive he has nearly no negatives. samus could shoot a missile and approach behind it, but those are easy to powershield or avoid in other ways. Her ranged approaches are basically just ftilt which is mediocre at best vs marth. Samus shouldn't get an opportunity to CC smash unless marth approaches her on the ground with a fair instead of nair or dtilt. She can keep him locked to the edge fairly well if she gets him there, though.
Really re-iterating what I already said, but this is my problem with this argument. None of this is wrong. Missiles don't do **** when everybody is at 0%, 4 stocks standing on opposite sides of the stage. There is too much emphasis on how advantaged Marth is from this position. What about tech chase missiles? What about after a nair/bair/dsmash? Are they worthless then? More generally in the matchup, what about when she re-spawns with invincibility frames? How are you going to outspace her for that? Are you going to ledge camp? She pins the ledge well. What if she gets a lead and starts ledge camping you? What about when she has a charge shot? What about the fact that regardless of all factors the bottom line is you need at least twice the openings she does, so ur cot dam right you better have the advantage from neutral stance.

And again on the stuff about ftilt and cc smashes. Remember, Samus doesn't need to cleanly outspace you. She's not going to. She'd love to trade hits with you, she knows you're going to hit her anyway. Her WD ftilt is pretty decent for breaking Marth's spacing. She's not trying to cleanly outspace Marth. She's just trying to make things messy. Force Marth to start teching, start recovering, just get him out of position. Maybe she just runs up and dash attacks out of nowhere when you were preparing to late fair. She can take that risk bc you shield grabbing her doesn't phase her at all.

Have you guys played good Samus? They can be really tricky, you know. You're making it seem like the hits come as free as on a single IC or something. I mean I still think she loses, but its no walk in the park.
 

xbombr

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Niko's perception of the match up is pretty much spot on. It's not about outspacing Marth because that won't work. Literally screwing with his spacing just enough to get in and CC smash, dash attack him, or throw NAirs out under him is enough to put Samus in an advantageous position in which she can win the match from.
 

Niko45

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13Zh36Wk7Kc

Pound 4 pools. This looks like the best representation, at least of a Marth that seems to know how to play Samus properly. Notice how Samus dash attacks and WD jab/ftilts break Marth's spacing, and also note the nair edgeguard. You can also notice that once Hugs has a charge shot Marth has to be much more careful, and he even eats a couple of missiles for it. Turtling in shield is fairly effective against Marth bc Marth is hesitant to rush in and grab, as he doesn't get much out of that and sidestep dsmash will **** him if Samus calls it. Marth got lucky with that reverse up B, but he also SD'd, so it kinda evens out. It says in the description Hugs 4 stocked and 2 stocked him in games 2 and 3, but it doesn't say what character Falcomist played (probably not Marth, at least on the counterpick).
 

KirbyKaze

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HugS also 4-stocked his Marth in the following match (confirmed by Juggleguy in the comments).

If this set is the best representation, then Samus should be >> Marth, not the other way around.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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samus' wd ftilt is easily beat by...... drum roll....... sitting in one place and dtilting repeatedly. now thats a ******** thing to do in a real game, but just try to think for 1 minute how much 1 move really shuts down samus' entire ground game when used at the proper times.
 

xbombr

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Or you can mix in WD grab instead of Ftilting every time. That's what I used to do if I knew he was going to dtilt whenever I looked like I was going to Ftilt. Grab outranges Dtilt so there's not any danger of being hit out of it unless Marth knows you're going to grab and jumps over it.

Either that or you can sit back and charge up a charge shot until he does something or lets you have a free charge shot. At which point you just shoot him (or act like you'll shoot him) the next time he tries to repeatedly dtilt your ftilt.

edit: Dtilt is gay to almost every character, yet Marth still has a handfull of even match ups and only slight advantage match ups.
 

Roneblaster

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that's all normal level junk. falcon shouldn't spam aerials or ever approach. can easily avoid needles.
enlighten me how to avoid needles without platforms. Jump? dodging needles all day requires 2 things. You to be in the lead and the sheik to be extremely dumb.

I can agree with Falcon > Sheik

it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Once matchups are found to be one way or another they tend to be extremely exaggerated. Falcon has to camp a lot with dash dancing and bair. It's a losing battle but he can punish very well
***** YOU CRAZY. DD camping is not possible on stages without platforms and honestly, who DD camps on platforms?

*stares really hard*

That's almost all the good Falcons do rofl. That and like some kind of movement camping.
this is why you're my favorite person. also this statement is 100% true.

on topic:
Marth > Samus or Marth >> Samus at worst.
 

Dark Sonic

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Nothing you suggested actually solves the problem <_<.

Marth is spamming spaced d-tilts. You won't get to charge a shot because he'll HIT you!

The d-tilt is a bait to get a movement reaction. The moment you wavedash backwards he's going to walk forward and do more d-tilts. Ironically, he'll be able to react to that grab 90% of the time because the entire point of him d-tilting was to get you to do something, then counter it.

I mean, I could understand if you had said something like "wavedash forward and CC d-smash the next d-tilt." That's a reasonable counter that would make me stop d-tilting so much. But nothing that you've suggested really accomplishes anything <_<
 

Niko45

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HugS also 4-stocked his Marth in the following match (confirmed by Juggleguy in the comments).

If this set is the best representation, then Samus should be >> Marth, not the other way around.
So I'm guessing you're implying that it's a poor representation of the matchup? I just don't know what to tell you. You aren't going to find better players on both sides that recently anywhere. Did you really think Marth played poorly on FD? I thought he played very solidly.

You aren't going to find vids of Hugs or IHSB getting ***** by a marth bc that doesn't happen. As much theory fighter as people want to go on about you can't spam dtilt and beat Hugs. Sorry.
 

xbombr

Smash Ace
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Nothing you suggested actually solves the problem <_<.

Marth is spamming spaced d-tilts. You won't get to charge a shot because he'll HIT you!

The d-tilt is a bait to get a movement reaction. The moment you wavedash backwards he's going to walk forward and do more d-tilts. Ironically, he'll be able to react to that grab 90% of the time because the entire point of him d-tilting was to get you to do something, then counter it.

I mean, I could understand if you had said something like "wavedash forward and CC d-smash the next d-tilt." That's a reasonable counter that would make me stop d-tilting so much. But nothing that you've suggested really accomplishes anything <_<
You didn't read Sveet's post?

He said repeatedly dtilting in place.

Repeatedly dtilting in place is not spacing them at all and it's not approaching.

Trust me, grabbing them even just once stops repeated in place dtilting.
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
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@reneblade

"That and like some kind of movement camping."

der der der der and the aerials aren't random they're thought about.
 

unknown522

Some guy
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Aug 17, 2005
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Toronto, Ontario
So I'm guessing you're implying that it's a poor representation of the matchup? I just don't know what to tell you. You aren't going to find better players on both sides that recently anywhere. Did you really think Marth played poorly on FD? I thought he played very solidly.

You aren't going to find vids of Hugs or IHSB getting ***** by a marth bc that doesn't happen. As much theory fighter as people want to go on about you can't spam dtilt and beat Hugs. Sorry.
falcomist sucks. Also hugs is a way better player than him.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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You didn't read Sveet's post?

He said repeatedly dtilting in place.

Repeatedly dtilting in place is not spacing them at all and it's not approaching.

Trust me, grabbing them even just once stops repeated in place dtilting.
I mentioned repeated dtilts as a joke. No competent marth player would do that. They would dtilt once because it is literally unpunishable by samus and then do something else that would beat what samus doing/going to do. Aka what dark sonic posted.
 
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