Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[xbombr]

Mana... He's already addressed it multiple times. As much as I'm sure everyone would like the most accurate match up chart possible, the format is obviously not going to change.

 

[BBQ°]

someone else should just start a new thread and say that they will use numbers for the matchup chart lol.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Also Falco discussion. Falcon comes shortly.

I can only imagine the matchup discussion.

'Falcon sucks. We only win because we're secretly better than everyone in the known universe. We also have big *****.'

 

[Mad J]

I Think
Falco > Fox
Shiek > Falco...

falco, fox is well always up for debate.. but thats just IMO
Sheik vs falco... Sheik is able to say really low to the ground, if she chooes to, so hitting her with lasers is much harder. While she is crouching she get distance between lazers with her wavedash(just like everyone else, but with everyone else you would have to almost stay shielding or us platforms to get aroudn the lasers). also when falco is pressuring sheik she can nair Oos. Also sheik can gimp falco sooo easily. One back throw to follow with a bair... O yea also its a bit easier for sheik to power shield falcos lasers because when she stays crouched she can wait till the laser is over top of her and just shield.

 

[xbombr]

I think you have your symbols backwards, bro. ^

 

[Mad J]

haha true lol my bad

 

[KAOSTAR]

someone else should just start a new thread and say that they will use numbers for the matchup chart lol.

I just dont think its gonna work. Too much debate over minor details when ur are saying pretty much the same thing. 75-25 vs 80-20 still means you get *****. Also there is not enough concrete evidence to even make matchup charts without basing it on data.

This is trying to make a more precise chart with no data. The margin of error is too high IMO.

If it can be done then it should, but I just don think its gonna happen. Not to mention we tried that one b4 this chart and it failed.

 

[1048576]

I know that stupid ****. The reasoning behind it is obvious.

We can make it more accurate, there's no reason not to.

No, we can't. If we could do nineteen, then we could do seven.

We're having issues doing seven.

It's not a good idea to be stupid and a jerk. Makes people get all when you post.

I guess I should try to be more helpful. Imagine we only used 1 category, ~. Then the chart is trivial. Every matchup is ~. Now we upgrade to 3 categories. Still pretty simple. Everything harder than Fox on Falco is <. The inverse is >. Moving to 5, note that we can use the information from the previous chart to construct this new chart. We're essentially just adding depth, which obviously makes it harder to produce.

Alternatively, imagine trying to use 101 categories. This would be ridiculous. You would have to define 50 cutoff matchups. The lines would blur as it is unknown whether a given matchup can range from >*80 to >*60. This ambiguity would render all that extra depth meaningless, and the considerable effort would be wasted. (Right now you'll notice there's no "skipping" of categories. We aren't debating > vs >>>.) Ask yourself, instead of making the chart with numbers in increments of 5, why don't we just rank the matchups from hardest to easiest? If you believe that the costs of such a practice outweigh the benefits, then I think we'll be on the same page.

 

[TheManaLord]

Ranking matchups from hardest to easiest doesn't do anything at all. I want this chart to be relevant and as accurate as possible. When people argue against that it makes them look stupid. But I don't care, I don't bring it up! I say the same thing in response whatever people say about it because my stance hasn't changed. Y'all need to stop bringing it up.

 

[t3h Icy]

Perhaps we can increase the accuracy after we're done with this. Let's get a base first and when we're all finished with this system, maybe we can move on to something more precise. For now, accuracy is the main thing.

Anyway, Falco match-ups being discussed:

Falco = Puff
Falco ? Sheik

 

[Nintendude]

People who read measurements from a graduated cylinder also want their measurements to be as accurate as possible, but they still have to report a value that has two significant figures or less.

Ok I'm done lol

If PP says that Puff = Falco then I trust his judgment over mine.
I think Falco = Sheik especially after Amsah's performance vs. Falcos at Pound 4.

 

[BBQ°]

I think Sheik has a slight advantage over Falco, but it's really slight. So I guess I say it's = for the sake of keeping it sheik=falco, rather than sheik>falco.

 

[Winston]

Falco >> Luigi rather than >. I'm pretty sure it's Luigi's 2nd worst matchup after Sheik.

From a neutral position Falco just has all the options. His lasers give him control of the ground vs a character who really wants to stay grounded. His punishment game isn't bad vs Luigi either, as Luigi can't really nair out of straight dair/shines, at slightly higher percents he can just use dair to techchase a lot like he does vs jiggs, and dair allows him to edgeguard Luigi really well. If Luigi gets caught above Falco he also has a hard time getting down without getting hit.

I don't have tons of Falco experience, but I remember Pakman posted that he thought Falco was one of Luigi's hardest matchups as well.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

falco < sheik. its slight but if fox > sheik, then falco < sheik should show up too. the thing with falco is even tho he can combo, and has his laser etc. we make all that back up with gimping potential. if you add sheiks that power shield it becomes much more obvious that falco encounters a few issues. a competent sheik can fight falcos drill, shine, tilt, w.e, pressure very effectively witha nair oos. oh also we can get some tech chasage on falco, because he is a fastfaller.

 

[unknown522]

Falco >> Luigi rather than >. I'm pretty sure it's Luigi's 2nd worst matchup after Sheik.

From a neutral position Falco just has all the options. His lasers give him control of the ground vs a character who really wants to stay grounded. His punishment game isn't bad vs Luigi either, as Luigi can't really nair out of straight dair/shines, at slightly higher percents he can just use dair to techchase a lot like he does vs jiggs, and dair allows him to edgeguard Luigi really well. If Luigi gets caught above Falco he also has a hard time getting down without getting hit.

I don't have tons of Falco experience, but I remember Pakman posted that he thought Falco was one of Luigi's hardest matchups as well.

I agree.

Also,
falco = jiggs
falco = sheik
falco > fox
falco = marth
falco > peach (my opinion changed recently)
falco >> falcon
falco >> ganon
falco > ICs (or >>)
falco >> mario
falco >> doc
falco >> pika
falco > samus
falco >> luigi
falco >>> DK
falco >>> YL
falco >> Link
falco >> GAW
falco >> zelda
falco >>> M2
falco >>> roy
falco >>> yoshi
falco >>> bowser
falco >>> ness
falco >>> pichu
falco >>> kirby

I think that falco doesn't have any disadvantages to any character (except for maybe marth and jiggs).

 

[ChivalRuse]

I need to actually learn how to play Falco. :******:

 

[otg]

I agree.

Also,
falco = jiggs
falco = sheik
falco > fox
falco = marth (or <)
falco >> falcon
falco >> ganon
falco >> mario
falco >> doc

I agree with all of these. Tho I might have to argue for Falco < Puff and Falco > Sheik. Falco has to work wayyyy harder then jiggs for stuff even tho he has the tools to do so and the punishment game (as usual) is incredibly skewed in Jiggs favor so one mistake is death for Falco.

 

[unknown522]

I hear that.

 

[Divinokage]

Falco > Ganon imo. Ganon has enough defensive tools against Falco to **** him over really quickly. I mean he can attempt to stage control and all that but there are always ways around his lasers, like jabs, power shields and things like that. If you start getting shined, it's possible to Smash DI out of it so it's not really garanteed combos except a few % in which Ganon can return really easily. It's just that Falco does not have as much possible campiness like Fox. I think anyway,

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

falco = jiggs
falco = sheik
falco > fox
falco = marth
falco > peach
falco >> falcon
falco >> ganon

I agree with the top 3 but disagree with the bottom 4. I've always felt Falco<Marth (very sure about this one), Falco=Peach, Falco>Falcon, and Falco>Ganon. Maybe I am not giving Falco enough credit considering I lower all your ratings by one rank, but I'd like to know your reasoning. Also, can anyone explain to me why Falco ***** Pika so hard? I don't know the matchup that well so hearing some explanation would be nice.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falco doesn't beat IC's. If anything, it's in IC's favor.

Falco's advantages:
-Extended combos
-Ability to gimp Nana (not unique to him ...)
-Fsmash is pretty good (as Shiz has demonstrated in his set with Chu)
-Lasers are great for locking down SoPo
-Decent edgeguarding

IC's advantages:
-Grab -> death
-Double shields hard to l-cancel on ... open up grab opportunities
-Lasers only hit one IC at a time ... when they're together, ice block usage nullifies the effectiveness of Falco's lasers
-Falco missing DI on a dsmash or fsmash usually results in him dying ... happens often because Nana will often buffer attacks that Popo fails to connect
-Edgeguarding Falco is simple and efficient ... often you can get grabs when Falco phantasms onto the stage
-One of the only characters who has a move which heads up beats Falco's dair (i.e., their uair)

Records between top players

-Dr. Peepee has defeated Chudat on a couple of occasions (I would attribute this more to DrPP being on the rise lately as an excellent player, while Chu is rusty)
-Fly Amanita has defeated Zhu several times
-Wobbles has defeated Forward often

Falco = IC's

 

[KirbyKaze]

Also, can anyone explain to me why Falco ***** Pika so hard? I don't know the matchup that well so hearing some explanation would be nice.

Pikachu is bad, Falco is good.

 

[Alphicans]

>_>. Pika is pretty good imo. It's just that sheik and marth make him pretty useless.

 

[KirbyKaze]

>_>. Pika is pretty good imo.

No, he's not.

He's just a bag of Uair spam and tricks. If you don't get above him like an idiot, there's remarkably little he can ever do to you.

Oh yeah, don't attack his ledgecamping. People do that for some reason. Haven't figured out why.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Pikachu is bad, Falco is good.

....maybe a Pikachu or Falco main can answer?

 

[Niko45]

....maybe a Pikachu or Falco main can answer?

In case you haven't noticed, KK has a very strong opinion about every matchup in the game. Particularly ones involving characters he doesn't use competitively at all. These strong opinions are also rarely backed up with any substantive argument or evidence. You just have to deal with it.

 

[Nintendude]

Falco vs. ICs may be a really really slight Falco advantage but it's pretty much even. ICs can utilize Falco's lasers for some desynch tricksies that are good for breaking his rhythm and getting something started. He's really fragile and gets owned really fast once ICs get control.

 

[xbombr]

IC's advantages:
-Grab -> death
-Double shields hard to l-cancel on ... open up grab opportunities
-Lasers only hit one IC at a time ... when they're together, ice block usage nullifies the effectiveness of Falco's lasers
-Falco missing DI on a dsmash or fsmash usually results in him dying ... happens often because Nana will often buffer attacks that Popo fails to connect
-Edgeguarding Falco is simple and efficient ... often you can get grabs when Falco phantasms onto the stage
-One of the only characters who has a move which heads up beats Falco's dair (i.e., their uair)

Records between top players

-Dr. Peepee has defeated Chudat on a couple of occasions (I would attribute this more to DrPP being on the rise lately as an excellent player, while Chu is rusty)
-Fly Amanita has defeated Zhu several times
-Wobbles has defeated Forward often

Falco = IC's

Grabs don't always mean death unless wobbling isn't banned, so I think grab -> death is an overstatement. Besides getting grabs with IC's is freaking hard because your opponent is doing everything in their power to not get grabbed and they don't really have an amazing grab range. Falco does have good methods for avoiding shield grabs and grabs in general though.

Double shields being hard to l-cancel on is largely irrelevant since we're talking even match up skill at the top level. It's not really THAT hard to l-cancel on their shields you just have to wait a little longer. Top level players should not have trouble l-cancelling, even against IC's.

I can understand Falco missing the DI on a Dsmash, but not really on an Fsmash. I don't see how he ends up dying at any % if he misses the DI though. He'd already have to be at a % where he could be hit offstage for an edgegaurd, missed DI or not. Unless he has Algerian DI, but we're assuming that the player is equally skilled to the opponent so the IC's would have Algerian DI too.

Falco doesn't have a long recovery, but I think you're overestimating how easy it is to edgegaurd him. He has tons of options as long as he's close and most characters would kill him if all he could do was phantasm, yet he's still got tons of >, >>, and >>> match ups. I'm not saying what you're implying is wrong, but there's more to the match up than "Oh Falco's offstage so he's dead."

Do you honestly think that Zhu, Forward, and Dr. PeePee have as much IC's experience as Fly, Wobbles, and Chu have in Falco experience or spacie experience in general? IC's is a vastly different match up for most characters and Falco is a very commonly played character. I don't think tournament results could possibly uphold the implications of this chart.

 

[Xianglian]

In case you haven't noticed, KK has a very strong opinion about every matchup in the game. Particularly ones involving characters he doesn't use competitively at all. These strong opinions are also rarely backed up with any substantive argument or evidence. You just have to deal with it.

People's opinions are swayed by their main's (i don't mean everyone, but a large percentage) match up's concerning their mains they have strong opinions on, this should be known already

 

[JPOBS]

In case you haven't noticed, KK has a very strong opinion about every matchup in the game. Particularly ones involving characters he doesn't use competitively at all. These strong opinions are also rarely backed up with any substantive argument or evidence. You just have to deal with it.

Pika IS terrible

-no tech roll,
-one of the easiest characters to combo (as falco),
- easy to edge guard. pika will ALWAYS go for the Ledge, and she can only sweetspot it from above. Once you realize this trick which people dont seem to understand, you can (as falco) literally throw a fsmash at her B-up and kill her easily. in the event she for some reason lands on stage, have your way with her landing lag
-small shield
and just like most everyone else she has no real answer to lasers

Pika can do stuff to falco like chaingrab and she has decent edgeguards. Her gimp ability isnt that good, she cant flat out cover falco's options like sheik/marth and it basically boils down to pika having to make him lose him jump, in which case ANYONE can kill falco so its not really that much of a bragging point.

KK is right. Pika is just like every low tier. A few tricks and the good ol "hopefully this falco has never seen a pika before so i have a chance" mindgame, but outside of that, she blows.

 

[xbombr]

Since when is Pikachu a girl?

 

[JPOBS]

**** it im not editing all of it lol

 

[Xianglian]

Since when is Pikachu a girl?

give him a break, i'm sure we all considered sheik a dude at least once

Edit: i'm making a comparison!!!

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I also say ICs = Falco.


Sheik is definitely a man.

 

[Vts]

I also say ICs = Falco.


Sheik is definitely a man.

i'm hit it with a baseball bat with nails.

also IC> falco (let me dream), but really even.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Grabs don't always mean death unless wobbling isn't banned, so I think grab -> death is an overstatement. Besides getting grabs with IC's is freaking hard because your opponent is doing everything in their power to not get grabbed and they don't really have an amazing grab range. Falco does have good methods for avoiding shield grabs and grabs in general though.

Double shields being hard to l-cancel on is largely irrelevant since we're talking even match up skill at the top level. It's not really THAT hard to l-cancel on their shields you just have to wait a little longer. Top level players should not have trouble l-cancelling, even against IC's.

Falco needs to sdi to escape d-throw d-air, so he basically gets ~2 chances to escape (depending on % and part of stage) and then dies. According to Magus, ICs can also d-throw chainthrow him if they react perfectly, and I think d-throw f-smash regrab potentially removes some of the reaction. You can assume that if Falco gets grabbed, he's probably dead.

You're right that double shields aren't really relevant at a high level of play. ICs can outrange his shine with b-air and grab though, and since they slide so much they can get out of shine's range without shield DI, so it's entirely possible to punish Falco out of shield.

 

[xbombr]

I never doubted that IC's could **** Falco with a grab, I think saying it's a 100% chance of death is an overstatement though and that's what I thought Chivalruse was implying.

You also can't forget that shield pressure and avoiding grabs doesn't begin and end with DAir-Shine. You can NAir-Jab, NAir-Shine, DAir-Jab, ect. Of course the follow ups to a stab or punished grab are lesser, but that doesn't mean it isn't effective in protecting yourself from grabs. The fact that they slide away often means that the shine or jab or whatever isn't always needed to keep yourself from getting grabbed. It all depends on your spacing and what move you're using to pressure them. I think NAir would probably be better since it's got better range on top of pushing them back, if you can get the low% DAir then go for it, but NAir is so much better, imo, when you're not guaranteed a combo since there isn't any worry of them outranging your shine because you don't even have to do it to be relatively safe.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Basically falco ***** everyone.

End discussion.

 

[N64]

Since when is pikachu not a girl?

jpobs got most of it. As far as pika's perspective:

Pros +
-uair gimps on falco can be devastating due to his fastfalliness and somewhat short recovery
-uair juggles on falco can be pretty rewarding
-chainthrow
-bthrow sets up edgeguards pretty easily
-plenty of edgeguarding tools
-very mobile, helps close the distance with falco to give him few laser setup opportunities
-awesome pika recovery

Now for cons, lets just break down why most of those pros up there aren't so hot, and add a few cons that pika doesn't have much answer to.
First, uair. It's super good (in everything but raw damage, where it's super bad) but falco can get around it mostly by just understanding the move. Falcos like being above most chars, dair is a monster, so most unfamiliar with pika will assume that works against pika too, which it doesn't quite as much. If falco just does his best to stay low to the ground, using shlasers, low aerials, utilts/ftilts, and grabs, pika loses a lot of opportunities. Lasers force pika to shield or jump over them. If he shields, falco now gets to use his above average shield pressure game with relatively little risk. The only things he has to worry about are: if pika is facing him, he can shieldgrab or usmash out of shield, and if he's facing away then he can rising uair out of shield. Pika's shieldgrab is awful against any competant falco. In addition to him simply not having time to shieldgrab a shine->dair->shine falco thanks to shieldstun, pika has the worst grabrange in the game, so falco can outrange it with spacing. Usmash out of shield can work (again, not against pillaring) but it's shieldable, outrangeable (if falco utilts, ftilts, or dtilts at range), and doesn't work if falco lands behind him. Next, uair out of shield. This option is pretty solid, as it can catch falco if he tries pillaring. It has about the same horizontal range as usmash, so it still runs into those problems though. Falco can also just continue lasering on pika's shield if he's facing away, and one laser is bound to shield stab (next section) and turn pika around if pika keeps shielding.
The big thing about all the previous options, though, is pika is shielding. Pika has the smallest shield in the game, and though it's not the worst thanks to his smallish model size, it still is pretty awful.
Ok, now, jump to avoid lasers option. Now pika's in the air, probably trying to approach. Guess what. You're falco and you're below and in front of pika. Your bair beats every single aerial option he has. Every one. Say pika doesn't want to approach in the air? That's fine, you can keep lasering then.
I went off on tangents kinda, oh well. Ok, pika's uair. If he hits with it, yeah it will usually lead to something good. Uair spikes, uair juggles, grab, usmash, etc. It can **** falco, no question. Falco needs to avoid that, which as i've hopefully shown, with proper playstyle he can greatly limit pikachu's chances to connect with one how he would like to. The issue is, if pika isn't able to connect with uairs, at least half of his game against falco deteriorates. And things go poorly.
Ok, uair is super awesome, but falco can pretty much stop it, moving on to grab combos.
Did I mention pika has the shortest grab range in the game? Yeah. Grabs are tough on falco. Lasers hinder ground approaches, shine->jump breaks a lot of pika's grab opportunities because he literally has to get right next to falco to grab him, and has too much shieldstun from shine to grab before falco is above him. Jc grabs help (which pika should be doing in every match anyways), but it's still extremely difficult. Pika won't be getting many grabs at all against falco. If he does, falco's going to get *****, as each grab will likely lead to either 30+% or outright death. Chainthrowing matters on 1 stage, fd, which also happens to be the stage where lasers are hardest to avoid.
Ok, uair is awesome but hard to connect with against falco, grabs are awesome but hard to connect with against falco, we seeing a pattern yet? Well lets continue, edgeguarding.
Pika has plenty of edgeguaring tools, and in most situations has an answer to every recovery option falco has. The problem is, none of these answers cover all (or most) of falco's recovery options at the same time, and pika has to be pretty dedicated to some of his answers and has to choose these answers before falco even has to make his recovery choice. Very few of pika's edgeguarding options can be reactionary, and none that are reactionary will cover all of falco's recovery options. So, effectively, it becomes a guessing game on both players' parts. If falco predicts right, he recovers (and is sometimes now in the position where he's edgeguarding pikachu after a failed edgeguard attempt), if not he dies. Sounds brutal? Well yeah it is, but pika needs those gimps, as we've already discussed that he's going to have few opportunities to do much substantial, so any missed opportunity is pretty harmful. Pika needs those gimps.
Now, mobility. Mobility helps him in this matchup, but I don't want it thought of as a wonderful anti-laser tool. Lasers still really suck for pikachu, as though he is mobile he still has to deal with them like most chars, by shielding them, and his sheild kinda sucks, as mentioned. He also doesn't have much in the way of solid approaches, so though he can move pretty fast he can't do a whole lot with it against falco. Utilt and bairs go through just about anything pika has, so the few approach options from lasers combined with few approach options through utilt/bairs makes pika sad. He has to find a way in regardless, and pika doesn't much like taking damage doing so either.
Now, recovery. It's pretty solid compared to most recoveries, no doubt. He does still have to kind of commit to options most of the time though, and there's a chance to react to most options if the opponent is quick enough. Pika can either go to the edge (usually the case), or recover to the stage, or to a platform. Platform is preferable, as it's hard for falco to get to from the edge (as he'll likely be edgehogging since pika can sweetspot the edge), but pika has to already be pretty close before upbing to make it most of the time (or at least, if he wants to avoid a ledgehop punish). Stage is alright, but if he wants to land with small lag he has very few angle/positions he can d this from. Edge is nice, but usually falco will be edgehogging. Any of these falco can often intercept, as pika's hurtbox during his upB is gigantic.

That all probably sounds a little exaggerated, and it probably is a bit, but that's the gist of it. So let's summarize the cons, and add a couple:
-bad shield
-crap grab range
-poor approach options
-light, so dies relatively fast
-poor damage output
-limited range in general

As long as falco understands the matchup adequately, it's pretty bad. Pika can wreck falco in all sorts of ways if he can get in and get some hits/grabs, but falco has plenty of safe options to prevent this, keep pika out, less mobile, shielding, taking bits of damage, and then dying to any one of falco's numerous kill moves. Yeah.

 

[otg]

N64 is probably the only person who I've seen come close to topping one of Dogy's wall of *****. I agree tho, Falco ***** everyone with an iron hot poker.