Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Dr Peepee]

Interesting ideas. I can sort of see why he says what he does after playing him at Pound.

I feel like it's even now since Samus has no options OOS aside from WD and up-B(which are good, but can be baited or just beaten to the punch with grab approaches...Samus not having a real shield grab or aerial OOS hurts her imo).

Everything else Hugs said seems fine to me.

 

[DMG]

Jiggs... EVEN with Doc? IDK I am having trouble picturing that.

 

[Divinokage]

Falco is probably even with Puff, but I'm not sure(I can make an argument or post some thoughts about it later if necessary I guess).

Only other thing that surprised me a little is Falco only >Ganon, but maybe it really isn't that bad.

Well let's see.. How do you feel when you play Linguini? Can you beat him a lot? Or is it more even matches?

Edit: I'm not super at the matchup but I can do ok usually.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like Linguini's experience in the matchup allows him to play it better than I do, but maybe I'm intuitive about the matchup enough to grasp it at a similar(but probably lower) level.

If I just draw on playing Linguini, then yeah > is cool.

Come to think of it, Linguini pretty much gives every Falco a hard time, so either the Falcos aren't figuring out his stuff or Linguini is just showing Ganon's potential in the matchup.

Yeah, I suppose > is cool with me then.

I need to figure out what I think about the puff matchup still LOL. That one is so weird.

 

[VGmasta]

I agree with
Falco > Doc
and
Falco > Ganon

 

[TheManaLord]

Falco > Fox

 

[otg]

Yo Falco >>>>>>>> Doc. In fact Falco >>>> a large majority of the cast and to only put some of his matchups at > is theory fighter at its finest.

Falco's that priority wall and platform camp raaape everyone.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco is probably even with Puff, but I'm not sure(I can make an argument or post some thoughts about it later if necessary I guess).

I think I see where you're coming from on this.

 

[Hazygoose]

Edit: I'm not super at the matchup but I ****ING BEAT MANG0.

fixed


also, sheik>falco for sure. at worst they're even.

 

[rhan]

That post by Hugs had me rethink the Samus v Falco a whole hell of a lot.

 

[Fletch]

Falco > Fox

This, I thought everyone agreed on this?

 

[Lovage]

falco has the ADVANTAGE, but it's not enough to put it at > on this chart in the same league as marth vs. sheik or sheik vs. falcon.

still wish we were using numbers

 

[unknown522]

me too.....

 

[I.B]

wow sheik > marth and sheik > falcon?

wtf

 

[TheManaLord]

falco has the ADVANTAGE, but it's not enough to put it at > on this chart in the same league as marth vs. sheik or sheik vs. falcon.

still wish we were using numbers

THIIIIIIIIIIIIIS

i've been working to convert the top 8 to numbers (10-0 format) in factI have a rough copy I can post right now:


I want to do 100:0 eventually and soon but this is super rough and the math is wrong ion some things bc i didn't change it


INACCURATE

INACCURATE

See people? The rally for numbers are coming from actual pro's who understand the "negligible" differences between matchups. **** you guys! woot woot!

 

[unknown522]

yo eric, if falcon's 3 vs sheik, marth should be too.

just sayin.

wow sheik > marth and sheik > falcon?

wtf

that's a good question...

 

[TheManaLord]

Aweomse, thanks Ryan. I may be making an official number based chart in the future when I have more time. Actually, it's not a maybe, I WILL at some point. At which time I'll be asking advice from knowledgeable people.

I do agree, I think Sheik Marth is 65:35 and sheik falcon is 70:30 but for the sake of popular opinion and I wanted them to be different I did it that way. it will be pretty and accurate in the future for sure ^.^ I remember when worldjem first had a list, I actually used it for reference for my beta chart.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

10 point system doesn't differentiate in the places we require. It doesn't change ANYTHING. Currently the difference between = and > and the difference between 5 and 6 have the same problems.

its the far extremes we care little about.

 

[john!]

THIIIIIIIIIIIIIS

i've been working to convert the top 8 to numbers (10-0 format) in factI have a rough copy I can post right now:


I want to do 100:0 eventually and soon but this is super rough and the math is wrong ion some things bc i didn't change it


INACCURATE

INACCURATE

See people? The rally for numbers are coming from actual pro's who understand the "negligible" differences between matchups. **** you guys! woot woot!

that's actually top 9 lol, not top 8... and that fox/falco problem could be solved by adding ≤ ≥ to the chart, to be used when there is a slight advantage which is not distinct enough to warrant < >. if you make it numbers, people are going to read into it too much... "char x will win that % of matches against char y"... "char x will win that many matches in a set of 9"... etc. i still say that the symbols/numbers/whatever should only be relative to each other.

 

[TheManaLord]

laaaaawl y'all can't read ****! I just said no **** about that sveet.

And john I told you mathematical errors galore, I've been stoned and drunk all day I'm just at work ready to pass out!

and holy **** at adding more symbols, you realize the chart USED RIGHT NOW is representing things mathematically with NUMBERS lmfao adding another symbol is ridiculous it'll never be displayed in that fashion anyways

the precision from 100:0 is necessary and ideal

 

[otg]

l
the precision from 100:0 is necessary and ideal

that's an opinion, and realistically it's impossible.

 

[TheManaLord]

well of course it is.

 

[unknown522]

Aweomse, thanks Ryan. I may be making an official number based chart in the future when I have more time. Actually, it's not a maybe, I WILL at some point. At which time I'll be asking advice from knowledgeable people.

I do agree, I think Sheik Marth is 65:35 and sheik falcon is 70:30 but for the sake of popular opinion and I wanted them to be different I did it that way. it will be pretty and accurate in the future for sure ^.^ I remember when worldjem first had a list, I actually used it for reference for my beta chart.

ah, I hear that.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

THIIIIIIIIIIIIIS

i've been working to convert the top 8 to numbers (10-0 format) in factI have a rough copy I can post right now:


I want to do 100:0 eventually and soon but this is super rough and the math is wrong ion some things bc i didn't change it


INACCURATE

INACCURATE

See people? The rally for numbers are coming from actual pro's who understand the "negligible" differences between matchups. **** you guys! woot woot!

Things taken from chart:
Ice climbers freaking suck.
Falcon doesn't beat peach. Dang, I coulda sworn he did.
Falcon loses to jiggs. Dang, coulda sworn that it was even.

 

[JPOBS]

lol theres no way falcon jiggs is even.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

On a slightly related note: lol at people saying that marth is too dependent on the 'mental aspect' of this game. Spacing is just as much tech skill as ragaflagashinecombos. Get the hell out of here. CF is more dependent on the 'mental aspect' than marth is since he is dash-dance incarnate and doesn't have a priority wall to back him up.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Numbers for ICs should be more like (left to right as it appears on your chart)

[4] [5] [3.5] [5] [4] [5.5] [3] [3.5]

 

[TresChikon]

On a slightly related note: lol at people saying that marth is too dependent on the 'mental aspect' of this game. Spacing is just as much tech skill as ragaflagashinecombos. Get the hell out of here. CF is more dependent on the 'mental aspect' than marth is since he is dash-dance incarnate and doesn't have a priority wall to back him up.

Mind reading powers extremely recommended for extended Falcon use.

 

[JPOBS]

winning with falcon requires either extreme luck or telepathy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon has priority but his moves are horrible and slow because he's horrible.

 

[xbombr]

Falcon is one of those all or nothing characters.

He either beasts you because he can predict your every move because you're a worse player or you beast him because his weaknesses are easily exploitable.

There's rarely much inbetween.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Oh Falcon.

The entire community johns for you.

We love you.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Oh Falcon.

The entire community johns for you.

We love you.

Q4T

Btw, is that your gf in your avatar?

 

[rhan]

Though we was talking about Falco here....

Still not understanding Flaco > Sheik...

 

[BBQ°]

Only other thing that surprised me a little is Falco only >Ganon, but maybe it really isn't that bad.

Linguini thinks the matchup is even. I'd trust his word since he and chops were training partners.

Although I don't know if Linguini still thinks that.

 

[BBQ°]

On a slightly related note: lol at people saying that marth is too dependent on the 'mental aspect' of this game. Spacing is just as much tech skill as ragaflagashinecombos. Get the hell out of here. CF is more dependent on the 'mental aspect' than marth is since he is dash-dance incarnate and doesn't have a priority wall to back him up.

spacing is mindgames and tech skill combined.

 

[t3h Icy]

I suppose it doesn't matter how many times I say it, but we're not using numbers.

Also Falco discussion. Falcon comes shortly.

 

[1048576]

laaaaawl y'all can't read ****! I just said no **** about that sveet.

And john I told you mathematical errors galore, I've been stoned and drunk all day I'm just at work ready to pass out!

and holy **** at adding more symbols, you realize the chart USED RIGHT NOW is representing things mathematically with NUMBERS lmfao adding another symbol is ridiculous it'll never be displayed in that fashion anyways

the precision from 100:0 is necessary and ideal

If you want to consider Fox and Falco to be > Falco, that's fine. You just have to ensure that every matchup more lopsided is considered > as well. Perhaps the matchups that are on the more extreme end of > should be >>. Either way, that's not a poor reflection of the method, just its implementation.

Basically, we're performing a sort on every possible matchup in the game. Only instead of putting all the pieces back together in order, we're leaving the seven broad categories unsorted. This ensures that we get done within Smash's lifetime.

Personally, I think Fox Falco is a good benchmark for the cutoff point of =. Everything more advantageous for one character than Fox Falco should be considered > or higher.

It might be worthwhile to actually define these "cutoff matchups", so we have something to work with when declaring a matchup as > vs. >> or >> vs >>>

 

[TheManaLord]

I know that stupid ****. The reasoning behind it is obvious.

We can make it more accurate, there's no reason not to.

 

[Nintendude]

I think that Peach vs. ICs is a good cutoff point for >>. It's what I've been using as my own reference point.