MBR Official Rule Set

[x After Dawn x]

Wobbling is retarted.

Irony.

And wobbling being "retarted" is absolutely no justification for it being banned, especially since it's been said already that it's up to the TO to decide if wobbling is banned or not.

 

[FalseFalco]

Irony.

And wobbling being "retarted" is absolutely no justification for it being banned, especially since it's been said already that it's up to the TO to decide if wobbling is banned or not.

I think you missed the point that WOBBLING IS ********

 

[Charlesz]

Irony.

And wobbling being "retarted" is absolutely no justification for it being banned, especially since it's been said already that it's up to the TO to decide if wobbling is banned or not.

Irony.

Get ***** by FalseFalco again.

 

[pockyD]

is using donkey kong's up-b banned? or ness's forward smash?

i think it's implied that anything not mentioned is allowed; the rule set is more to show what's NOT allowed than what is

 

[TheManaLord]

Wobbling is a metagame equalizer and the whole scene went to **** when it was banned. Such a stupid decision to ban it.

 

[pockyD]

there are too few relevant IC players for any decision regarding wobbling to have any sort of notable effect

 

[TheManaLord]

If it weren't banned or a controversy ics might be high tier by now or top even with perfection of it

 

[x After Dawn x]

Irony.

Get ***** by FalseFalco again.

There's no irony in what you said, and I know FF in real life so you still don't know what you're talking about.

Wobbling isn't banned, it's up to the TO to decide if it is or not. This has already been said earlier in the thread.

 

[DippnDots]

Super debater against people who really don't give a ****

wobbling is ******** in the sense that it's just a rhythm, really not hard to learn, and while somewhat hard to set up there are much harder things to pull off that yield less reward

wobbling isn't ******** in the sense that it really doesn't change icies players tournament placings noticeably.

I think that's why its still up to the TOs, as icies can CG 0-death with or without wobbling, it's not like it takes away from their game either. Considering people who place high in tournaments are people who know their characters inside and out, if they can only CG 0-death with wobbling they are most likely lacking in other areas of their character as well.

 

[xbombr]

If it weren't banned or a controversy ics might be high tier by now or top even with perfection of it

How can it possibly be perfected further? Actually wobbling isn't a problem so much as actually getting the grab with both climbers in proper positioning. It's an error on your opponent's part if you get a wobble, not something that you can really work to get a guaranteed set up, such as Sheik's needle grab. It's especially bad when they're obviously going for their easy 0-death grab.

Actually wasn't there some sort of analysis or something done that said that IC's actually do slightly better when wobbling is banned as opposed to when it isn't? I remember hearing that before and it basically came down to IC players going for the grab the whole time rather than just playing the match ups. Of course grabs are a huge part of their game, but when some of the incentive is taken away as far as grabs go, then their play is less predictable in the sense that their utilizing more of their moves and getting their still devastating grabs becomes easier.

 

[TheManaLord]

sounds like theory craft bull**** again

grabs happen, if IC's still had it there would be plenty of opportunity to use wobbling

in no way does someone become better when an amazing asset is removed. without wobbles they still heavily rely on their grab game so its just ******** to think something otherwise

 

[DJRome]

needle grab is not guaranteed

 

[xbombr]

sounds like theory craft bull**** again

grabs happen, if IC's still had it there would be plenty of opportunity to use wobbling

in no way does someone become better when an amazing asset is removed. without wobbles they still heavily rely on their grab game so its just ******** to think something otherwise

I never said that they would stop using their grabs. They still do massive damage, but they aren't guaranteed 0-Death, so some of the incentive is removed to grab. Counterintuitively, this allows them to get more grabs since there's less incentive to just run around and randomly grab so they can get the wobble. Their play is much less predictable at least until you get to the highest level of IC players, which is like all of 3 people, where they're amazing players who realize that going for 4 0-Deaths from a wobble in the same match isn't going to win tournaments for you.

It's not really theorycraft since there are apparently tournament results that actually back it up and wobbling being banned actually allows the IC's metagame to advance since players are forced to come up with more options than "Oh let's just grab this fool 4 times and end the match." When in reality they really have to work for grabs since they have pretty terrible grab range and they have low traction, which makes shield grabbing with that grab range tough against spacing characters and characters with strong moves, not to mention that everything Nana does happens later so she gets hit a lot when Popo's shield was already up.

There is tons of room in IC's metagame for advancement, once that room runs out, and/or when there are widespread tournament results where wobbling isn't banned that indicate that they actually do better when it isn't banned, then universally accepting wobbling might be something that I'd support.

needle grab is not guaranteed

It's certainly more reliable than what the IC's have for securing grabs.

 

[TheManaLord]

People got better, IC's got better. Go ask any IC's main. I can't believe you're serious. Giving them wobbles would make them that much better again. It was good enough to get the technique banned, are the IC's that good now?

 

[Mogwai]

People got better, IC's got better. Go ask any IC's main. I can't believe you're serious. Giving them wobbles would make them that much better again. It was good enough to get the technique banned, are the IC's that good now?

analyzing tourney results where wobbling is banned vs. those where it is not show that it has proven largely irrelevant to the success of top level ICs. it helps out a bunch at the scrubbier levels, but top level ICs punish plenty good enough without wobbling, and top level players of other character don't get grabbed by synched ICs enough for it to really matter.

 

[Fletch]

I know Trail said he does better without wobbling, but I don't know if every IC main feels this way. Anyways I thought it was allowed at most tournaments nowadays? I don't think it's banned.

 

[TheManaLord]

It's really ******** to think IC's as a whole can be better when wobbling is banned.

Will magneto get better if his infinite is banned? certainly not.

it's a situational thing that can only help the character soooo stupid to consider otherwise. sure he might've developed his game more because he can't use the great technique but what if that technique is given back to him? what if he bypassed it in the first place and focused on the other aspects initially? It's just really silly.

 

[xbombr]

It's really ******** to think IC's as a whole can be better when wobbling is banned.

Will magneto get better if his infinite is banned? certainly not.

it's a situational thing that can only help the character soooo stupid to consider otherwise. sure he might've developed his game more because he can't use the great technique but what if that technique is given back to him? what if he bypassed it in the first place and focused on the other aspects initially? It's just really silly.

Why don't we just turn all the walled stages and stages that have ground that extends out of the side of the screen back on while we're at it so Fox can get infinites and easy kills with his shines while we're at it? Fox would do a lot better with those.

Oh and we'll just turn mute back on as well so Jiggs and Peach can be better. Oh and Floats, there's nothing inherently unfair on that stage except Fox can camp like crazy on it, surely allowing him to camp more would make him do better as well.

Like Mogwai said, they're good enough without it so that it's largely irrelevant. The only effect that wobbling has on the IC's metagame is the hindrance of it's advancement.

The problem with giving their technique back to them is that their metagame hasn't stopped advancing. What will happen is that it'll grow stagnant again and wobble-based while everyone else continues to advance and IC's are back at square one before their infinite was banned with more experience in a non-wobble based environment to apply to their wobble based one. Of course, the effects would be lesser now than they were 5 years ago, but that's largely irrelevant since they still have a lot of room left to advance, as well as every other character.

There isn't a real gain in tournament placings by having wobbling definitively ruled as one way or the other, while there is a loss of advancement over time.

 

[TheManaLord]

Character evolution won't be hindered by acceptance of wobbling, get over it!

That's such a terrible argument to get it banned.

 

[xbombr]

Character evolution won't be hindered by acceptance of wobbling, get over it!

Proof please.

I agree with the MBR that it shouldn't be ruled one way or the other and largely left up to TO's. Saying wobbling can't be banned does hurt their metagame since it centralizes it around a single technique. Saying it is banned doesn't allow them to apply it to their game at all, but I see it as the better of the two options considering tournament placements.

If you can somehow prove that centralizing a character's metagame around one move and situation is a good thing, then by all means go ahead.

 

[TheManaLord]

If you can somehow prove that centralizing a character's metagame around one move and situation is a good thing, then by all means go ahead.

That's a player decisions, it's by no means a standard.

There are plenty of players who omit the use of certain things. Come on.

 

[Mogwai]

It's really ******** to think IC's as a whole can be better when wobbling is banned.

Will magneto get better if his infinite is banned? certainly not.

it's a situational thing that can only help the character soooo stupid to consider otherwise. sure he might've developed his game more because he can't use the great technique but what if that technique is given back to him? what if he bypassed it in the first place and focused on the other aspects initially? It's just really silly.

to be clear, I don't think anyone's arguing that with Wobbling banned, the ICs are better (at least, that's not what I'm arguing).

however, there were plenty of tournaments on each side of the ban for a period of time and the tournament's stance on having wobbling banned didn't really seem to affect results. to me, this is a very compelling anti-ban argument. if a technique still doesn't result in a character's dominance, there is no reason to ban it.

I just really disagree with you saying that ICs would be near the top of the metagame if Wobbling weren't banned, because it largely isn't banned and they still aren't winning much of anything any more. Being denied wobbling in 1 out of every 3 tournaments is not why ICs are overshadowed by the top 7.

 

[xbombr]

The only thing I'm arguing is that with wobbling banned, there is more emphasis on other, more useful, things for the IC's to focus on. Setting up a wobble is hard and largely error on your opponent's part.

The issue is that you're relying on them to screw up and get grabbed by a sync'ed IC's. The only thing that wobbling does is allow IC's to beast harder on the low tiers and bad players that they have an easy time grabbing.

Their other silly CG's that include charged Fsmashes and other random crap that doesn't seem like it should work do more than enough damage to allow them to punish effectively and still have a beast grab game. Wobbling won't change much except how they're killing from grabs.

Wobbling won't make their match ups with Fox, Falco, Falcon, ect. any better than they already are so they don't have much chance to move up since their upper tier match ups won't change much, if any.

I think the MBR did a good thing by not banning it outright and not saying that it should always be allowed in all tournaments. There is no evidence to suggest that it helps them either way, so it should be left up to the community whether they want it or not. I'm just looking at it from a long term perspective when I'm talking about their metagame.

 

[pockyD]

it's purely psychological

the only argument i can agree with against wobbling is that it's boring ... but watching a fox laser camp is SIGNIFICANTLY more boring

 

[TheManaLord]

to be clear, I don't think anyone's arguing that with Wobbling banned, the ICs are better (at least, that's not what I'm arguing).

however, there were plenty of tournaments on each side of the ban for a period of time and the tournament's stance on having wobbling banned didn't really seem to affect results. to me, this is a very compelling anti-ban argument. if a technique still doesn't result in a character's dominance, there is no reason to ban it.

I just really disagree with you saying that ICs would be near the top of the metagame if Wobbling weren't banned, because it largely isn't banned and they still aren't winning much of anything any more. Being denied wobbling in 1 out of every 3 tournaments is not why ICs are overshadowed by the top 7.

They could at least be seen as contenders from normal players. Only the most dedicated and aged IC's do anything worthwhile anymore.

Anybody with rhythm and a modicum of technicality could place well with Wobbling allowed and encouraged. It's the same fear the banned it in the first place. Players are MUCH more adept to getting around it these days.

 

[xbombr]

it's purely psychological

the only argument i can agree with against wobbling is that it's boring ... but watching a fox laser camp is SIGNIFICANTLY more boring

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I also agree with mana that wobbling is a choice, but the fact that only the IC's players that are currently pushing the metagame will still be the only ones pushing the metagame if wobbling were to draw in more IC's players (Since most, not all, would exclusively use wobbling to compete at decent levels otherwise they would already be playing IC's) would mean that not much would change, which is where our thinking parts ways.

 

[Mogwai]

They could at least be seen as contenders from normal players. Only the most dedicated and aged IC's do anything worthwhile anymore.

Anybody with rhythm and a modicum of technicality could place well with Wobbling allowed and encouraged. It's the same fear the banned it in the first place. Players are MUCH more adept to getting around it these days.

once again, no they couldn't. They had plenty of tournaments to show this but we still didn't see tehAISEEplayar123 getting a placing that anyone cared about.

 

[TheManaLord]

It didn't get popular until it became disputed and then banned. It was most popular right before the ban because the amount of attention it received, it was hardly looked at beforehand and it's hardly looked at now.

 

[pockyD]

i have no idea what "TheManaLord"'s perspective is

he doesn't make any real arguments for either side, he just makes tangentially relevant statements, then doesn't tie them to any sort of thesis

 

[Mogwai]

I'm also really confused about his perspective on a Wobbling ban... I can't remember any official like, MBR ruleset or anything that included Wobbling being banned... There was quite a bit of talk of it, but I can't remember it ever being anything but, "Wobbling being banned is up to the TO of the particular tournament."

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

He just posts two sentences, and puts no effort in his "arguments".

I think he's trollin'.

 

[TheManaLord]

"Wobbling being banned is up to the TO of the particular tournament."

This clause is even worse than any official ban. I do recall it being banned in plenty of community held tournaments around the EVO times and afterwards. If one of your most prized techniques is banned at the whim of the organizer, how can any consistency be gained? It was just as bad as an official ban.


My stance: Wobbling is fine. LMAO. congrats for not figuring that out

It was wrong to be banned and discriminated against. By saying you don't think IC's can crack top 7 even with it is enough support to show how absolutely stupid the figureheads of the arguments were at the time. And to argue against it now is even dumber.


Removing the clause is a smart decision. Everything is up to the tournament host, it doesn't have to be explicitly stated.

 

[pockyD]

"Wobbling being banned is up to the TO of the particular tournament."

not sure where you got this from

the ACTUAL (and only "semi-official", since it's not actually part of the ruleset) quote

wobbling is not mentioned intentionally. if the TO determines it to be stalling, and at what percent, it's already on them to deal with it. if not, then abuse it to your heart's content. again, it needs to be tweaked by the TO. in doing so, the MBR has no stance on wobbling.

Conclusion: Wobbling is not banned as a gameplay tactic to rack up damage, with the goal of a KO. Wobbling used for stalling is governed by the same obscenely vague rules governing other forms of stalling (rising pound, peach bomber, whatever)

The so-called T.O.'s choice comes regarding their definition of "stalling"

Once again: in not being addressed, it is implicitly allowed unless its use falls under some other rule (in this case, the stalling "rule")

 

[Mogwai]

how is that going to be controlled though? I mean, there's no real governing body behind Melee rules. Wobbling is gay and boring and if a TO wanted to ban it, it's not like it would be losing sponsors or sanctioning from something that they'd care about because everything is grassroots.

Besides, you really seem to be of the opinion that Wobbling is A) hard and B) changes how you play the rest of the game with ICs. I mean, it's easy and you want to get synched grabs anyway... It's not hard to practice holding forward and tapping A to the right rhythm for the tournaments where you can use it. The "banning" of it really hasn't set IC metagaming or w/e you wanna call it back at all and I think you'll have a hard time finding people who agree with you on that.

 

[TheManaLord]

I don't think either of those things, somebody else did.

Wobbling is easy, and it just happens. If you hunt for use of any tactic in this game you're going to get read.

All of my sentiments are targeted at people who don't like Wobbling, you're both fine with it! Get out of my azs.


EDIT: When was the last time you saw Wobbling used in a tournament video where it really affected anything

Before the controversy wobbles was hitting everyone with that ****! And chu was loving it up at Evo bc the crowds went nuts for it (wobbles too actually at south) (and by crowds I mean trads not smashers exclusively)

If there was never a controversy or talk of banning or some clause then things would be different now for IC's, you can't deny that! just think about it pal come on

 

[Mogwai]

Wobbling is a metagame equalizer and the whole scene went to **** when it was banned. Such a stupid decision to ban it.

If it weren't banned or a controversy ics might be high tier by now or top even with perfection of it

I'm really just arguing with these posts.

 

[pockyD]

wobbling is still legal, used, and even celebrated at the tournaments i go to

 

[TheManaLord]

Ooooh yeah. That was some exaggeration. my b

I usually get into arguments by posting ******** extremes of my side of the argument!


EDIT: let me get at that cali **** then. i love seeing wobbling and cheering it on

 

[Mogwai]

wobbling is still legal, used, and even celebrated at the tournaments i go to

HAVIN' A GOOD TIME, HAVIN' A GOOD TIME!i!!!

 

[otg]

wes you crack me up.