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MBR Official Rule Set

xbombr

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
767
Location
Maryville, MO
I'd probably still lol @ HMW and them singing "I'm on a Boat" when Boback was wobbling Connor if I rewatched that video.

The reason it's celebrated is that it's a zero death and it's not exactly easy to set up though it's easy to execute once you get them trapped.

I don't think it should be one way or the other, but I also don't think that it improves their metagame so much that they'd move up at all. The fact that it's cheered for shows how rare it is to actually see it affect a match. I suppose I derailed the argument and strayed away from my main point a bit.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,263
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
I think wobbling should be banned. It makes players of little skill become much better than they should be imo, and that's why I think it should be banned. Chu also thinks it should be banned fyi. You can think what you want but that's what we think (Chu told me this a few years ago)
 

I.B

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
1,704
Location
Torontario
seriously though, if all IC's CC grabbed to wobble consistently...it would be really gay.
 

Charlesz

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2,043
im sorry if i sparked an arguement >_< i just wanted to know what MBRs stand on wobbling is, but i know now lol
I don't ****in understand this. You ask MBR what the stance on wobbling was like 30 pages ago, the answer was TO's decides whether it is banned or not. End of Story.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
to clarify once again, the TO decides whether it's STALLING or not

as a damage-racker (which is how it's used almost 100% of the time), it's not banned
 

Vanitas

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
812
Location
Final Destination
I don't ****in understand this. You ask MBR what the stance on wobbling was like 30 pages ago, the answer was TO's decides whether it is banned or not. End of Story.
Whoa, no need for vulgar language
and i specifically wrote: I KNOW NOW lol
umad
im just apologizing if i got a huge discussion going on.
 

Charlesz

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2,043
Why would you apologize for fueling a discussion. If you haven't noticed, this is TOURNAMENT DISCUSSION boards.
 

xbombr

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
767
Location
Maryville, MO
If you think about it...

Wobbling is a ******** stalling tactic. You can easily lose out on a kill you could have had by ending it if you accidently break your rythm.

I think more TO's are banning it because of there being no official stance and it being an incredibly boring 0-Death that requires no skill other than the ability to maintain a rythm.
 

DJRome

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,557
Location
GA all dai
since when has difficulty been a factor in deciding bans? shine spikes are so hard. . . press down and b. it's the getting into said situation that's hard and getting a grab with ics still takes skill
 

xbombr

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
767
Location
Maryville, MO
since when has difficulty been a factor in deciding bans? shine spikes are so hard. . . press down and b. it's the getting into said situation that's hard and getting a grab with ics still takes skill
At least you can get out of a shinespike and setting it up at 0% is very hard.

Wobbing requires no stage positioning or specific % and works equally against all non-IC's characters.

I'm not arguing that wobbling should be banned, I'm just saying that the reason it's actually being banned is most likely not stalling.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
I'm not arguing that wobbling should be banned, I'm just saying that the reason it's actually being banned is most likely not stalling.
right, and that would be against the recommendation of the MBR, which was the question at hand

the MBR isn't god; TOs are completely free to do what they want

I'm really really looking forward to the day that someone tries to wobble in a no-wobbling tournament though; what exactly is wobbling? how many hits is too many? how can a 3rd party observer tell if they're actually timing it perfectly?
 

xbombr

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
767
Location
Maryville, MO
right, and that would be against the recommendation of the MBR, which was the question at hand

the MBR isn't god; TOs are completely free to do what they want

I'm really really looking forward to the day that someone tries to wobble in a no-wobbling tournament though; what exactly is wobbling? how many hits is too many? how can a 3rd party observer tell if they're actually timing it perfectly?
Exactly. This is the reason it's a janky rule. Completely banning wobbling because of stalling is BS now that I think about it.

Many TO's that allow wobbling don't allow "any infinite chaingrab" go past 300% to prevent stalling. That's a better system, imo. There's no ambiguity as to what wobbling is and isn't since no chaingrabs can't go past that %. The only real one that does that anyway is wobbling, but that rule prevents people from using wobbling in some way to turn it into a stall technique.

It also doesn't outright prevent wobbling from happening. TO's who cared about wobbling as a stall technique ban it after a certain %, not from play entirely. Wobbling bans are because people view it as a broken technique.
 

xbombr

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
767
Location
Maryville, MO
I don't think those are infinites like wobbling is though.

I could be wrong of course. It's obvious that you're stalling if you're chaingrabbing them at 300% though. Even moves with subpar knockback are killing at that %. I mean drillkicks, weak projectiles, and jabs aren't, but 300% is where most characters tilts and aerials are killing almost regardless of what they are.

There's a reason that they use that % for sudden death.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
I'd probably still lol @ HMW and them singing "I'm on a Boat" when Boback was wobbling Connor if I rewatched that video.

The reason it's celebrated is that it's a zero death and it's not exactly easy to set up though it's easy to execute once you get them trapped.

I don't think it should be one way or the other, but I also don't think that it improves their metagame so much that they'd move up at all. The fact that it's cheered for shows how rare it is to actually see it affect a match. I suppose I derailed the argument and strayed away from my main point a bit.
Its not that hard to do.

I saw Boback take 3 stocks off m2k using wobbling. M2k was mad because it was the only game he lost when he came up to washington for tourney play 2.

****s always mad funny tho. cept when it happens to you.
 

Xona

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
118
Location
Anywhere but final destination
Most of the banned stages are banned for one of 3 reasons:
1. Stalling Tactics (Stalling is banned, even Temple might be considerable as circle camping is stalling; however, Temple probably has more problems than just circle camping.) As far as I know, nobody even tried to ban circle-camping. There has to be a way. Circle camping is stalling. Rising Pound was successfully banned in case of being used to stall.

2. Random factors (So-called "randomness" exists with character's moves ANYWHERE, Peach's Turnips, Game and Watch's Side-B. Those examples are more extreme than Big Blue's randomness) No tournament data ever proved whether this was worse than the random stage that used to be used or the randomness of certain attacks. Why? Because these stages were banned immediately.

3. Certain Top Tiers supposedly being unbeatable, but in many cases this is worse on final destination. Much of the time, this is due to a single tactic such as shine-infinites.

4. Slower characters being "screwed". Again, Bowser, Zelda, Mewtwo, Ganondorf all do better on many of these stages than on final destination. Icicle Mountain is a GREAT Bowser stage, but a terrible Zelda stage. That being said, final destination is still worse. Big Blue is an ok Ganondorf stage, and one of Bowser's best stages, as well as one of Mewtwo's best, and a pretty good Zelda stage. I can't speak for Roy, I never really use him. I can kind of speak for Ganondorf, but I think that I can definitely speak for Bowser, Mewtwo and Zelda.

5. Infinite combos or Walk-off kills. In Melee, there isn't the problem that many of these infinites are standing infinites on any stage anyway, so the argument against banning the stage in favor of the tactic is not quite as valid. But since when are infinites non-banworthy to the point that stages should be banned because of them? The main argument against walls and walk-offs has been Shine-Infinites the whole time, but why not just ban shine-infinites? Fox has pretty much been destroying everyone with his shine-infinites, right? What if his shine-infinite has reached the point where it warrants banning?

Why has banning stages always been the answer? I may HATE final destination, as it renders Bowser practically unplayable, but that does not necessarily mean ban it. Though its being a starter is questionable in my opinion (yes, I once did advocate its banning in Brawl, and I was no less for it in Melee, but I have realized that while Bowser may never beat Falco here, this is the main mentality that has banned more than half the stages in the game. And players get to declare one ban right, mine definitely goes on final destination.

The most questionable thing is that with all of these stages being banned to "protect low tiers", then why is it that nothing ever happened to final destination. The answer is that most people liked that stage and were accustomed to it. The reason that Smash Bros (all 3 of them) is my favorite series is because of the stage variance, platform layouts, hazards, and movements that force players to adapt. Smash Bros (all 3) has always been intended to be played with platforms. final destination was not even playable in multiplayer in SSB64.

Personally, if I want to play a fighting game with zero platforms, I will stick with Guilty Gear XX. SSB64, SSBM, and SSBB have always been about fighting the enemy making use of the platforms and adapting to different layouts. There is a reason why the name Super Smash Bros is derived from the name Super Mario Bros.
 

Fletch

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Messages
3,046
Location
Shablagoo!!
Fox has pretty much been destroying everyone with his shine-infinites, right? What if his shine-infinite has reached the point where it warrants banning?
What the hell are you talking about? Fox doesn't "destroy" with shine infinites all over the place, he's just broken for other reasons.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
4. Slower characters being "screwed". Again, Bowser, Zelda, Mewtwo, Ganondorf all do better on many of these stages than on final destination. Icicle Mountain is a GREAT Bowser stage, but a terrible Zelda stage. That being said, final destination is still worse. Big Blue is an ok Ganondorf stage, and one of Bowser's best stages, as well as one of Mewtwo's best, and a pretty good Zelda stage. I can't speak for Roy, I never really use him. I can kind of speak for Ganondorf, but I think that I can definitely speak for Bowser, Mewtwo and Zelda.
this is not a real criteria for stage banning

you're arguing against a phantom that isn't even there
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
well that's obvious, but there are still plenty of 'standard' rules and regulations that new T.O.s should take note of if the intend on running a successful tournament
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,283
Location
Upstate NY
well that's obvious, but there are still plenty of 'standard' rules and regulations that new T.O.s should take note of if the intend on running a successful tournament
new TO's? successful tournaments?

we talking about brawl or melee?
 

mastermoo420

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
726
Fox has pretty much been destroying everyone with his shine-infinites, right? What if his shine-infinite has reached the point where it warrants banning?
As said, Fox is broken for other reasons. The shine is one of the reasons, but not for the use of an infinite. Most of the infinites require specific conditions or high levels of tech-skill (or both). For the same reason the IC's ledge-CG will never be banned, so will Fox's infinites (though stages that make the infinite easier to procure may be banned or moved to CP-list; see PS)

Why has banning stages always been the answer? I may HATE final destination, as it renders Bowser practically unplayable, but that does not necessarily mean ban it.
Are you a Bowser main? Because if you're complaining about FD, just don't go there. On stage striking, you can easily get rid of the choice of FD. If you win, then letting them CP to FD should be "fair" since they lost and they get a chance. If you were truly better, it wouldn't really matter too much.

Smash Bros (all 3) has always been intended to be played with platforms. final destination was not even playable in multiplayer in SSB64.
That first statement could be completely wrong unless you helped with the development. Also, the Japanese play FD only. As far as they think, SSB was intended to be played withOUT platforms.

Personally, if I want to play a fighting game with zero platforms, I will stick with Guilty Gear XX. SSB64, SSBM, and SSBB have always been about fighting the enemy making use of the platforms and adapting to different layouts. There is a reason why the name Super Smash Bros is derived from the name Super Mario Bros.
Again, you don't have to make use of the platforms. You make it sound like having platforms COMPLETELY changes the metagame. People play the same on FD or elsewhere. Mathematically, if the advantages of two players X and Y are shown as:
X = Y
And platforms are an advantage labeled "P," then simply:
X - P = Y - P
There is no net difference.

And I mean no offense. I mean to debate, and in a debate, I don't prove that I'm right. I'm just trying to prove that you're more wrong than I am for such is the art of debating.
 

Xona

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
118
Location
Anywhere but final destination
xona-mewtwo's best stage is probably fd. its for sure better than big blue-you can't speak for m2 anymore.
Big Blue is actually a great (edit: okay, not a great one necessarily, but Mewtwo could also use the track with his side aerial. Kaostar informed me that Mewtwo's defensive capabilities would severely diminish. This stage actually hurts his ground game) Mewtwo stage, but final destination probably isn't terrible for Mewtwo (edit: it is better for Mewtwo's ground-game with the exception of his reverse throw.) Many of Mewtwo's best attacks are aerials, and the track allows Mewtwo to move from the right to the left as fast as anyone else, thus partially countering an opponent's speed advantage. Now that being said, Mewtwo does have a projectile, and his grab is strong. His projectile; however, is not very effective against others when spamming it. His projectile is very useful when charged because firing it in the air allows him to use a powerful attack and cover great distance at the same time. Big Blue is definitely not a bad Mewtwo stage. Although as far as banned stages that are good for Mewtwo go, Icicle Mountain is better than Big Blue. (Edit: Big Blue is actually only an okay Mewtwo stage. But Icicle Mountain is definitely a good one. Big Blue is good for many of Mewtwo's offensive capabilities, but bad for most of his defensive ones)

Also, Mewtwo's grab is more powerful with closer sides as his reverse throw sends an enemy extremely far back at low %'s. Low ceilings are also good for Mewtwo because of his up throw and forward aerial (edit: only for Mewtwo offensively, not defensively). Brinstar Depths, though not necessarily good for Mewtwo's recovery, is great for Mewtwo's offfensive capabilities.
 

Oracle

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,471
Location
Dallas, TX
Xona go away. After Dawn and I explained exactly why this argument was and still is ******** two years ago in the stage legality thread. Don't make me bring up the old posts
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
Xonatroll

Mewtwo has bad aerials. They lack range, kill power, or priority. His horizontal mobility is what sets up all his attacks and approaches. You need to spam shadowballs and you need to be able to WD consistently. You cant really do that on big blue.

Mewtwos biggest strengths are(Horizontal movement, but its not the best) recovery, and ability to pressure the opponent far from the stage. He is worthless on Big Blue.

You also amplified his weaknesses. He is huge, uneven ground and broken spots makes it necessary to jump more, and WD is harder. You make m2 a bigg siting target. He dies much more easily off the side from weak attacks. Just about any player can kill with throws on BB while they are near the side. It doesnt help that there are alot of things to tech on for back/upthrow.

Low ceilings will hurt mewtwo alot more. He dies off the top pretty fast and unfortunately due to worsened horizontal mobility you will have a much harder time getting a grab or linking into a fair.

ICeM is prob better than big blue, But most characters will **** m2 because they dont have to deal with edgeguarding him, you just took the sides away.

Dont even bother to reply, im no longer amused. You clearly dont know ****! Just in general, let alone have any control over the two. I hope that you are somebodies alt account and you are trying to troll, or else I frown upon mankind.

So I take it you are a stage troll-like every post you made is about stages. ****ing dumb, ****s ****ing dumb.
 
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