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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Pi

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why you guys being such *****es about this whole thing

Seriously all you ****in do is complain complain complain
'we want a tier list, we want a char match up chart, this one is wrong, this part is innacurate, this matchup is wrong, this chart fails'

Post something constructive you *******s

Matter o fact most of you don't even have any business posting here cause you don't know what the **** you are talking about any way
 

Mogwai

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why you guys being such *****es about this whole thing

Seriously all you ****in do is complain complain complain
'we want a tier list, we want a char match up chart, this one is wrong, this part is innacurate, this matchup is wrong, this chart fails'

Post something constructive you *******s

Matter o fact most of you don't even have any business posting here cause you don't know what the **** you are talking about any way
lolwut? are you seriously flipping out about this? and who the hell are you to say that we don't know what the **** we're talking about?

a chart like this will never get approval because the numbers mean different things to different people and matchups are way more subjective than anyone cares to admit.
and aside from the fact that there are plenty of problems with it, there are and will always be far too many issues with "rating" 500+ matchups on a completely arbitrary rating scale between 20-30 different local communities that never play each other, with the best players not even giving their input and especially without a focused discussion for each individual matchup

so many issues that i believe it's not worth doing, as a faulty chart is more counterproductive than no chart at all

and for matchups you blatantly admit to not "knowing" (as if 80% of the matchups are even close to being "knowable"), why put a number at all? leave it blank until someone who DOES know can fill it in, instead of taking baseless guesses
having gone through this exact saga a couple years ago with the Phanna chart, we're trying to spare you all the trouble, heartbreak and pain associated with trying to put definite numbers on a huge number of matchups that 99.9% of the smash community know nothing about, but are still opinionated on. Hell, if people can't even agree on how the top 4 matchup against each other, what makes you think that there will ever be a consensus on what the Yoshi vs. Roy matchup looks like?
 

idea

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edit:

Another chart is in the works for just the, uh, actually played characters. i think we decided to cut it off at mario. not that no one plays mario, but really, it's ALMOST no one. and below him you just get miscellaneous low tiers.

that one should be more interesting. someone actually came up with the idea while this chart was being made, but this one was getting finished first.

SS's falcon ***** mango's puff.

That may only be two players, but given that its MANGO and SS has one of the best falcons, i think its safe to say the matchup is atleast even or maybe in falcons favor.
*****? i've only seen two matches between his puff and ss' falcon on youtube...one mango's puff lost pretty badly on brinstar, and the other i forget who won, but it was definitely close and it was on stadium. i also notice mango's puff being very conservative now that he has good alternates (why be aggressive with puff when you can just go falco), which is generally good, but it also means he hardly rests anymore. i consider it really useful vs. falcon cause he can't kill you when he comes back till mid percents.

it does seem pretty even between ss' falcon and mango's puff...so that does say something...but as for the matchup, i'm gonna call this one insufficient data.
 

#HBC | Mac

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Meh, I think the only way this thing has a chance of working is if you go to the character specific boards for every matchup. Like have the 2 different boards for each match-up get together and figure out the numbers. It should also be their responsibility to seek out the opinions of the best players for each their character. It would have to be a pretty wide-scale project for these numbers to be at all accurate. It would at the very least feel more official.

But I lack faith in the char specific forums so I doubt anything like this will ever work and pretty much agree with PockDeezie and Mogwai

edit: and the way you rank it is inaccurate. According to your chart, a character having a 70-30 matchup with a top tier is has the same value as having a 70-30 matchup with a low tier which imo should no tbe the way it works, since the low tier will barely be represented in tournaments. What you could do is have matchups vs different characters worth different amounts of points. Say you separate the characters into 7 tiers. Than you multiply the points gotten from a top tier match up by 7 and add that to the points gotten by a high tier match-up multiplied by 6 and do the same thing all the way down to the bottom tier which would have no multiplier.

Meh, I don't think that made much sense. Oh well
 

TheZhuKeeper

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Mango most recently 3-0ed SS's Falcon with Puff

But a chart should reflect matchups in theory, Mango vs SS should just be used as a piece of evidence for whatever conclusion you guys come to.
 

Pi

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lolwut? are you seriously flipping out about this? and who the hell are you to say that we don't know what the **** we're talking about?
Someone who can see when people are pulling **** out of their *** that they've accumulated through matches they've had with their friends.

Flipping out? Na, I'm just tired of seeing this community constantly sabotage itself further and further down the ****ter.

Melee's not gonna continue to grow if everyone who can teach you something starts acting like they're better than everyone else instead of helping.

If people wanna act like arrogant ****s then don't expect anything in the positive direction to come melee's way, seriously, how is someone gonna post consist basically of 'this chart sucks' or 'don't bother'.

From a character to character standpoint here is what you need to look at, roughly;
How do they match up from a distance
How can they approach each other
what moves lead into what other moves (accounting for moderate DI)
how can they gimp each other, and how realistic is it
how is their grab game
how easy are kill moves to land

just **** like that, not impossible at all, and you all make it seem like it can't be done
well it sure as hell can't be done when half or more of the posts are saying that it can't
and most of the others are just spitting out #'s without backing them up with any significant evidence.


Let me give a rough example of what I think should be going on with a match I'm most familiar with;
Samus v Falco
At the very least I would say it's 40:60 falco
Personally I would rate it more of an even matchup, especially on platform stages, perhaps even in samus's favor.

At a distance;
lasers vs. missiles

Falco's lasers (especially on platform stages) are not a huge factor in this matchup, and if he decides to spam them then the samus player can throw out a few missiles, assuming one of them connects, that is gonna roughly add up to more % than falco has done with his lasers, if he shines one and the samus is close enough, he's eating a aerial.

Approach;
Assuming they are both on the ground, he's gonna hop in w/ a few lasers, maybe wear the shield down a bit, but if he attacks samus' shield he's eating an UB. Now, samus isn't the fastest character, so aside from UB OoS she doesn't have a whole lot of options when she's getting approached, and if falco decides to grab then she's eating a few %, but that's pretty much it. If he Dthrow's, he'll have to tech chase, and all his other throws don't reliably lead into anything vs. samus.

Combo's;
Being a spacie, he's gonna have tons of hitstun, and with his terrible recovery eating a dair/dtilt at ~80% near the edge often means death, assuming the samus player follows up with an easy to land nair/bair, and if he is able to reach the ledge, the samus player can throw out another nair to exchange hits w/ his UB or **** him out of his side B.

For falco, he can't really pillar samus too reliably, maybe at lower %'s but at upper %'s it's gonna be shine into Uair maybe bair if he's quick. His dair does have massive priority and he probably has the air game on samus if he can approach from above or below, but her nair generally will **** over anyone head on.

recovery wise, samus has an advantage over falco. A dair means death, but samus has tons of way to get around it, where as falco gets ****ed if samus lands a nair.


To summarize (this was a quick thing I know I missed some stuff if you want to dispute anything please feel free it'll probably jog my memory)

Falco is fast, but if the samus plays patient she can win the match, where as if the falco plays too slow and eats too many missiles and ends up off the stage there is a very good chance he's about to be minus 1 stock. Inversely, if the samus plays too fast too aggressive she simply can't compete w/ falco's speed.
 

Mogwai

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...but the "evidence" doesn't actually convince people because it's just theory-smash. Then when you use more concrete tourney results, it inevitably comes up that "oh, well X is just a better play than Y", "X is a lot better at the matchup than Y", or "but Z beat X two weaks after X beat Y in the same matchup" which inevitably just leads back to talking theory which never gets people to agree.
 

Pi

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...but the "evidence" doesn't actually convince people because it's just theory-smash. Then when you use more concrete tourney results, it inevitably comes up that "oh, well X is just a better play than Y", "X is a lot better at the matchup than Y", or "but Z beat X two weaks after X beat Y in the same matchup" which inevitably just leads back to talking theory which never gets people to agree.
This is the internet, even in the face of blatant fact people will disagree, ignore those types of people and try to cater to the logical ones.

Some characters have speed, some have priority, some have gimps, some have range, I truly believe that if we were to go through and compare very specifically character to character matchups we could come up with a decently accurate chart, that could be continually discussed and adjusted.

I think the best way to go about doing this would probably not to rely entirely on forum posts, but rather to have a group of people sit down and discuss thoroughly what 1 character can and most likely will do to another
 

Mogwai

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This is the internet, even in the face of blatant fact people will disagree, ignore those types of people and try to cater to the logical ones.

Some characters have speed, some have priority, some have gimps, some have range, I truly believe that if we were to go through and compare very specifically character to character matchups we could come up with a decently accurate chart, that could be continually discussed and adjusted.

I think the best way to go about doing this would probably not to rely entirely on forum posts, but rather to have a group of people sit down and discuss thoroughly what 1 character can and most likely will do to another
ok, first off, there is no "blatant fact" when it comes to matchups. Converting all the facets of a matchup to a number is a messy process that is ultimately arbitrary and will always make 1 side of the argument upset.

ok, example time.

Falco vs. Jiggs:

Falco has lasers, Jiggs has no projectiles.
Falco can just stay on platforms and camp Dair and Jiggs cannot approach from below. If Jiggs instead goes level with Falco to attempt to approach, Falco jumps off the opposite side of the platform and shoots a laser, thus netting % and ending up below jiggs, where she has nothing that can compete with utilt.
Once Jiggs is at a lethal %, Falco can just shoot lasers while she's on the ground and camp shield when she jumps, threatening to usmash out of shield to kill her or sh bair out of shield to kill her.
Thus, a Falco with good execution and good strategy is going to have complete control of neutral positions and will just win the match through attrition. However, Falco's every error is punished by death, so there is no room for error from his side of the matchup.

Some questions then:

1. What number can you associate with this matchup?
2. Why that number? What does it mean?
3. How do you account for the stage counterpicking issues that inevitably come up (Jiggs having 2 autowin stages, only 1 of which Falco can ban)?

...to name a few simple but nearly impossible to answer questions.
 

idea

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edit: and the way you rank it is inaccurate. According to your chart, a character having a 70-30 matchup with a top tier is has the same value as having a 70-30 matchup with a low tier which imo should no tbe the way it works, since the low tier will barely be represented in tournaments.
what does it matter how many people play them in tournament? that gives people less information to make decisions with, but a 70-30 matchup is a 70-30 matchup.

also it's based off the street fighter system, adding up all the character's matchups.
 

Mogwai

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Yedi, I did something a long time ago using Phanna's chart and a pretty arbitrary formula based on character matchups for weighting each character's matchup relevance and created a tier list with it, but it was ultimately a huge failure due to inaccuracies in the Phanna chart which I've come to associate with such a chart being impossible.
 

Pi

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ok, first off, there is no "blatant fact" when it comes to matchups. Converting all the facets of a matchup to a number is a messy process that is ultimately arbitrary and will always make 1 side of the argument upset.

ok, example time.

Falco vs. Jiggs:

Falco has lasers, Jiggs has no projectiles.
Falco can just stay on platforms and camp Dair and Jiggs cannot approach from below. If Jiggs instead goes level with Falco to attempt to approach, Falco jumps off the opposite side of the platform and shoots a laser, thus netting % and ending up below jiggs, where she has nothing that can compete with utilt.
Once Jiggs is at a lethal %, Falco can just shoot lasers while she's on the ground and camp shield when she jumps, threatening to usmash out of shield to kill her or sh bair out of shield to kill her.
Thus, a Falco with good execution and good strategy is going to have complete control of neutral positions and will just win the match through attrition. However, Falco's every error is punished by death, so there is no room for error from his side of the matchup.

Some questions then:

1. What number can you associate with this matchup?
2. Why that number? What does it mean?
3. How do you account for the stage counterpicking issues that inevitably come up (Jiggs having 2 autowin stages, only 1 of which Falco can ban)?

...to name a few simple but nearly impossible to answer questions.
So you're basically saying jiggs cannot approach, which is not true in the slightest. Getting to a lethal % from lasers without getting hit by jiggs? That's not likely, and I feel like you're exaggerating simply to prove a point. Which isn't helping anybody.

And yes, there are blatant facts, combo's. Shiek being able to land a fair after X move on X character, that's pretty much a fact.
Marth being able to CH X character up to X %, that's pretty much a fact.
That's what you need to look at. These are things that you can't dispute, as long as they are not counted as autowins.

If you want to factor in stages, then do advantage/neutral/disadvantage system where you rank the stages of the matchup, not hard.

How bout this, you give categories to each character, along the lines of what I mentioned;
At a distance
Approaching
Up close
In the air
On the ground
Off the stage
Edgeguarding
Finishing moves
Racking up %
yada yada, etc etc



When factoring in human variables there are an infinite amount of ways to be proven wrong, but as far as a pretty accurate character comparison chart, I think it's far from the realm of impossible.
I wouldn't mind a chart consisting of 5 ranks;
Advantage
Slight advantage
Neutral
Slight disadvantage
Disadvantage
 

pockyD

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so you want to identify 10+ different categories per each character in a matchup, weight them arbitrarily to compare the significance of falco's laser game vs jigglypuff's grab game, then repeat the process 500 times
 

Pi

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so you want to identify 10+ different categories per each character in a matchup, weight them arbitrarily to compare the significance of falco's laser game vs jigglypuff's grab game, then repeat the process 500 times
With a slightly more optimistic attitude, and with a little less sarcasm, yes.
 

Pi

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by my calculations, there are only 325 distinct matchups (25 + 24 + 23 + ... + 1), so it's only 325 times :p
did you account for neutrals?

and i'm telling you that it's "highly unlikely", though i generally would not use such a cheery phrase
aw come on, be optimistic!


It's not like it's gonna be 1 guy doing this. If you rationalize it it wouldn't even be that long.

You obviously are gonna have select people who know more about certain matchups so theyll be on those chars
 

Mogwai

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"highly unlikely" fails to address the logically fallacy of assigning arbitrary weights to various facets of each matchup.

neutrals wut? if you meant dittos, they're all even, 50-50, w/e, why bother discussing..? (and if you count them, it's 351)
 

otg

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To the OP, where do you base some of these numbers on? I notice this matchup chart is pretty similar to the current SF4 tier list, but some of these matchup numbers just seem blatantly wrong, as well as your placement of characters in the tiers (Ganon/Samus above Ice Climbers? Pikachu right behind Doc? Wtf??)
 

Mogwai

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To the OP, where do you base some of these numbers on? I notice this matchup chart is pretty similar to the current SF4 tier list, but some of these matchup numbers just seem blatantly wrong, as well as your placement of characters in the tiers (Ganon/Samus above Ice Climbers? Pikachu right behind Doc? Wtf??)
they're ordered by the sum of all their matchups - (50 * 25) (the difference between their matchups and being even with every other character), hence the difference between the ordering and the current tier list ordering.
 

worldjem7

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Some questions then:

1. What number can you associate with this matchup?
2. Why that number? What does it mean?
3. How do you account for the stage counterpicking issues that inevitably come up (Jiggs having 2 autowin stages, only 1 of which Falco can ban)?

...to name a few simple but nearly impossible to answer questions.
Use Neutral stages as measurements for the chart then elaborate on counter-pick stages in the explanations. All of which is still being worked on. My apologies for not making this clearer earlier on the first post.

The number given is determined by having two characters play 10 games on Neutrals and seeing how many games each character would win out of the 10 games. I changed it to 100 games instead of 10 to eliminate decimals and to allow more accurate scores. If a match-up really can't be that accurate then leave it at the 10 and say 60-40 or 70-30.

To properly associate a number to a match-up someone knowledgeable of that match-up must be involved in the process.

I'm not just trying to throw numbers around like you think I am.

This entire idea is based off of what the Street Fighter community does.
 

idea

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okay, i'll answer that before worldjem or someone gets mad at you =P
edit: other people typed less and posted faster.

it's based off the street fighter rating system, and it's not exactly a tier list, because the idea is to add up all the matchup numbers and get a numerical rating used for placing characters. there was never a discussion like "who's better, ganon or ICs"...it was just, what's this matchup, what's this one, okay, now add them all up. and there was some more math on top of that to get the final number, which i forget.

there's obviously going to be debate over the matchups, though. the differences from the current tier list are partly opinion and partly the actual-looking-at of all the low tiers (and there's already been tons of disagreement over those in the last 4 pages).

reading through these posts is exhausting X_X i hope the mid-tier-and-up chart gets completed soon. where is the rest of gta, by the way? i didn't even contribute to this chart very much =P
 

Pi

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"highly unlikely" fails to address the logically fallacy of assigning arbitrary weights to various facets of each matchup.

neutrals wut? if you meant dittos, they're all even, 50-50, w/e, why bother discussing..? (and if you count them, it's 351)
Yea I meant dittos and was just wondering if you counted them in your 325 or not.

& dude, language please. fallacy, arbitrary, facets
it's totally not a fantasy, and all we have is arbitrary, and yes, but facets are prevalent everywhere, and can be rationalized down to a agreeable point.


I really just want something more solid than our current tournament based tier list
I'm tired of hearing people rank characters solely on their usage in tournaments.
 

worldjem7

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I'm not angry at the critics and nay-sayers. I understand completely where they're coming from.

This is something new to smash and the answers aren't clear. Not everyone is familiar with both Street Fighter and Smash at the same time. I just hope I can show what I'm trying to do properly so that others can help this chart flourish.


Edit: How does "number of games played" imply a skill level? I already mentioned that both players are assumed to be equal in skill at a high level.

And, I can't imagine phanna's "best of 9" was any better. In a best of 9 there has to be a winner so how do you determine the even match-ups? Keep playing forever?
 

Pi

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...but that 100 games thing is silly, hypothetical, and assumes an indeterminate skill of each player. It's a bad system for describing matchups.
I agree, unless you take the proven best mains of each character, anything less gets exponentially more inaccurate and playing 100 matches at top level play seems more of a 'logically fallacy' than spending an hour ranking a characters matchups based on categories of playstyles


I'm not angry at the critics and nay-sayers. I understand completely where they're coming from.

This is something new to smash and the answers aren't clear. Not everyone is familiar with both Street Fighter and Smash at the same time. I just hope I can show what I'm trying to do properly so that others can help this chart flourish.

in what ways can we help?
 

pockyD

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quite simply it doesn't work like that

if a character has a substantial edge, which we would traditionally (the numbers are meaningless except in relation to each other) for whatever reason quantify as 80-20, I find it hard to believe that the inferior character would win 1 in 5 games with both players playing to their maximum ability

and you ESPECIALLY can't quantify that unless you lock down the other parameters, in particular, stage
 

Mogwai

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I'm not angry at the critics and nay-sayers. I understand completely where they're coming from.

This is something new to smash and the answers aren't clear. Not everyone is familiar with both Street Fighter and Smash at the same time. I just hope I can show what I'm trying to do properly so that others can help this chart flourish.
no, it's really not. this is phanna chart, with slightly different scale.
 

pockyD

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and in fact, you're running before you can walk; you can't try to rank the characters based on their 'ratings' when the basis for the ratings (the matchup scores individually) are already admittedly unrefined and largely arbitrary
 

dudutsai

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I think a chart is more just to give newer players a sense of the matchups. Obviously a chart cannot possibly reflect the whole game, but it should not be discarded just because of that.

Also Mogwai, I'm just curious what are the two autowin stages vs falco that you were talking about cause I could use some autowin stages lol
 

worldjem7

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and in fact, you're running before you can walk; you can't try to rank the characters based on their 'ratings' when the basis for the ratings (the matchup scores individually) are already admittedly unrefined and largely arbitrary
Street Fighter says hi.

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2007/dec/18/tiers-character-rankings-street-fighter-3-third-strike/

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

They've been doing this for years.

All I did was change it from 10 to 100 to allow flexibility between the numbers.
I'm basically just trying to apply their system to smash.

And if you really think it's unrefined and largely arbitrary then, why don't you think of something? Honestly, please, show me a kind of measurement that I can use.
 

pockyD

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maybe you're misinterpreting "can't"

I certainly "can" rank the characters in order of how much cotton candy they could probably consume in one sitting, but that would be both pointless and baseless

All I did was change it from 10 to 100 to allow flexibility between the numbers.
I'm basically just trying to apply their system to smash.

And if you really think it's unrefined and largely arbitrary then, why don't you think of something? Honestly, please, show me a kind of measurement that I can use.
my only argument was that there IS no such measurement. If you restrict it top top 8-10 chars only, at least you have a plethora of historical data and large-scale play-testing to go by... but how will you possibly be able to decipher how the ness-yoshi matchup plays out?
 

calmchaos

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There needs to be a different way to go about making these charts. Maybe discuss each matchup in each individual forum and have people vote. Only people who play each matchup a lot should have anything to say.
It would take A LOT of research and time to make a decent one of these charts.

Also... falcon VS mewtwo is NOT 10 - 0. There is no way. I would say that it is more like 70-30 in falcon's favor, if both players are of equal skill on a non FD neutral stage.

And kirby vs sheik is not 10 - 0 either.

I could pick out so many things I want to personally dispute but I don't know all I should about the rest of the match-ups.
 

worldjem7

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my only argument was that there IS no such measurement. If you restrict it top top 8-10 chars only, at least you have a plethora of historical data and large-scale play-testing to go by... but how will you possibly be able to decipher how the ness-yoshi matchup plays out?
I figured having some sort of tangible measurement, such as how many games one would win if they played 10, would be better than having no base at all, regardless of how arbitrary. The Imperial system is pretty arbitrary yet, the U.S.A. still uses it. It's just a matter of whether everyone wants to use that system or not. Hopefully Street Fighter's system will catch on here.

There's honestly not much anyone can do to really find out match-ups like that. Because there's little to no tournament data on them, and because there aren't any players who play those characters well enough to be able to comment on them, we're just going to have to get top level players, or any who would know of those match-ups, to talk about it amongst themselves to achieve a consensus.

I never said this was going to be a perfect chart, nor did I expect it to be perfect. And I obviously can't do it alone because I don't know about every match-up either. I'm just trying to do the best I can with what's available. I got tired of phanna's outdated match-up chart so I decided to start a new one. I'm active enough in the smash community to bother to do the work and talk to the people to be able to update the chart.
 

pockyD

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I figured having some sort of tangible measurement, such as how many games one would win if they played 10, would be better than having no base at all, regardless of how arbitrary. The Imperial system is pretty arbitrary yet, the U.S.A. still uses it. It's just a matter of whether everyone wants to use that system or not. Hopefully Street Fighter's system will catch on here.
the point is, this is simply not something that you can resolve through any sort of thought process; what's the difference between an 8-2 and a 9-1? a 55-45 and a 60-40? there is no possible way to make a logical distinction there

There's honestly not much anyone can do to really find out match-ups like that. Because there's little to no tournament data on them, and because there aren't any players who play those characters well enough to be able to comment on them, we're just going to have to get top level players, or any who would know of those match-ups, to talk about it amongst themselves to achieve a consensus.
Right, there's not... which is why I am saying no chart > bad chart... I'm not saying "you're doing it wrong", I'm saying "you shouldn't be doing it"

I never said this was going to be a perfect chart, nor did I expect it to be perfect. And I obviously can't do it alone because I don't know about every match-up either. I'm just trying to do the best I can with what's available. I got tired of phanna's outdated match-up chart so I decided to start a new one. I'm active enough in the smash community to bother to do the work and talk to the people to be able to update the chart.
but there's nothing to suggest that this effort will go any better than phanna's (which was WILDLY popular ,btw)... you still have the issue of deciding whose opinion to value, controlling variables like stage, reconciling regional differences, deciding what 'factors' are important, and most importantly, managing 300 different discussions at once
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
There is no reason it can't be done.
There is reason it can't be done perfectly
But that shouldn't deter anyone from attempting it.

It's not like it's going to turn out grossly inaccurate, it will offer a more realistic ranking system then the tier list, and might even change the metagame.

I'm just curious as to whyyy the naysayers are trying to adamantly to put a halt to this project.


Right, there's not... which is why I am saying no chart > bad chart... I'm not saying "you're doing it wrong", I'm saying "you shouldn't be doing it"
The tier list is an example of a bad chart, and that's what the majority of the smash community uses. Updated chart > tier list/phanna's outdated chart.

No hate to phanna's chart, but it's how old? years?

Why is it he can make a chart but worldjem can't? Because it's already done and been accepted? Because he was a mod? Because he's got combo video's?
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
There is no reason it can't be done.
There is reason it can't be done perfectly
But that shouldn't deter anyone from attempting it.

It's not like it's going to turn out grossly inaccurate, it will offer a more realistic ranking system then the tier list, and might even change the metagame.

I'm just curious as to whyyy the naysayers are trying to adamantly to put a halt to this project.
for the 4th time, a bad chart is more counterproductive than no chart

you put something up with pretty colors and "simple" analyses and people will accept it as truth

The tier list is an example of a bad chart, and that's what the majority of the smash community uses. Updated chart > tier list/phanna's outdated chart.

No hate to phanna's chart, but it's how old? years?
phanna's chart isn't just outdated; it wasn't even right for that time either. I think this is the main point of confusion. It's not that the chart has become obsolete; it was NEVER accurate

Why is it he can make a chart but worldjem can't? Because it's already done and been accepted? Because he was a mod? Because he's got combo video's?
he "could" because it was an original idea and nobody knew how it would turn out; we all now know that it was quite the failure, and newbies to this day still point to it in asserting that kirby plays sheik very close

the name has nothing to do with it (is phanna even a big name? he made combo videos, i guess, but he was never known as a top player)... if he came back and said he wanted to start "updating" it again, I would have the exact same thoughts that I'm laying out here
 
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