Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[idea]

pretty colors

yeah, this is starting to sound better to me, honestly.

note that i kept the american spelling of color =P

Fox:Jigglypuff - 60:40
Falco:Jigglypuff - 60:40
Marth:Jigglypuff - 55:45
Falcon:Jigglypuff - 60:40
Jigglypuffeach - 45:55
Jigglypuff:Ganondorf - 35:65
Jigglypuff:Ice Climbers 55:45

this really confuses me. how does falcon beat jiggs? how does peach? and ganondorf? i'd put all of those in jiggs' favour. (peach makes the most sense to me - turnips, spaced fairs, recovery - but i think bair still beats everything she has)

there's no way fox is as bad for jiggs as falcon O_O
falco i'll believe, that one seems more variable (and dependent on the falco's tech skill), but it will be tough to convince me that fox and falcon are equally bad for jiggs. i'd put the first one as fox winning by a lot and the second as jiggs winning by a little.

 

[Renth]

Ganon has great spacing abilities and can tech-chase very well depending on a player. Ganon has a good advantage over Falco's depending on what stages. Final Destination definitely works against Ganon since Ganon only has walking/running/jumping as his only mode of transportation while other stages allow him to perfect waveland throughout the whole stage such as Dreamland and Yoshi's Story. Of course, Falco has a good advantage by having a great pressure game using lasers and pillars; however, one mistake by the Falco player, the Ganon player ***** his/her stock.

Just a fun fact: Did you know that it actually takes only 2-3 of Ganon's moves to take Falco's stock that quickly? (B-air near the edge, another B-air off the stage)

Do you ever watch professional Ganons (Renth, Kage, Linguini, 1233, Chadd, Magus) going up against professional Falcos? If not, then you might not be too familiar with the match-ups. Maybe it should be just 40-60 just to be safe, but 30-70 is just way too inaccurate in my opinion. Ask any other Ganon pros, as mentioned above, and they'll give you similar match-up ratios as mine.

You're absolutely correct, Ganon vs. Falco is hilliarously fun. Falco combos ganon to hell and back then ganon hits falco twice and it's back to being even again haha. I'd give it 40 - 60 in falcos favor but in my honest opionion the match is even fool

 

[Renth]

A few things I'd like to say...

- There is no such thing as a 100 - 0 matchup. Anybody CAN beat anybody at an equal skill level, that is a fact (eg: chance, in the zone, mistakes). 90 - 10 on the other hand, CAN exist.

- For the low tiers, take a look at the matchup threads in each character's forum. Generally those give numbers.

Actually, you should've gone through each character forum, recorded those matchup numbers, averaged them out, then come out with the list. It would be of OK accuracy. And I'm pretty sure all the forums have some sort of matchup thread (be it half-finished, complete, rambling, etc).

no 100 - 0 matches? you've never seen Sheik vs. Bowser have you?

 

[RaynEX]

So it's decided, this chart sucks. You guys should have done more homework before posting a johnned up one.

I hate posts like this. At least we tried, man.

yeah, this is starting to sound better to me, honestly.

note that i kept the american spelling of color =P



this really confuses me. how does falcon beat jiggs? how does peach? and ganondorf? i'd put all of those in jiggs' favour. (peach makes the most sense to me - turnips, spaced fairs, recovery - but i think bair still beats everything she has)

there's no way fox is as bad for jiggs as falcon O_O
falco i'll believe, that one seems more variable (and dependent on the falco's tech skill), but it will be tough to convince me that fox and falcon are equally bad for jiggs. i'd put the first one as fox winning by a lot and the second as jiggs winning by a little.

I agree. Fox ***** Jiggs harder than Falcon does. I think that when it comes to talking about a person's main, they try to make their character seem as terrible as possible to make them feel better about using that them. I mean, I'd do that - but I main Fox. He's already so insanely broken. <3 Vanz

 

[Mogwai]

Vanz thinks Falcon is way better than he is and underestimates Falco vs. Fox (it's even).

I don't feel like I can ever lose to a Ganon in tourney. I feel like in friendlies, Ganon vs. Falco is even but once Falco decides to play like a homo it's strongly in his favor.

anywho, anything more I have to say in this thread has already been beaten to death by Pocky, Dogy, and myself, so as much as I'd love to have this thread not happen, I don't really have any power to stop it... peace[/unsubscribes]

 

[RaynEX]

I'll help out with the low tiers.
The only auto wins are shiek vs. bowser and marth vs. mewtwo, because shiek can almost indefinitely cg and combo boozer, while marth's range and gimps destroys mewtwo, while he is too floaty for mewtwo to unleash beast combos on

Roy vs. fox is 4-6 or maybe even 45-55, as cg's and combos **** fox hard, even though fox has the shine. It's nigh impossible to successfully approach vs. falco, so laser camping *****, the only way to lessen it is to pick a platform stage, in which case roy's CG's are all but ruined, so probaly 2-8 or 15-85

Sheik vs. Yoshi is an autowin too, but that logic. Because she can CG him for days. Regardless of whether you want to accept it or not, there are some match-ups that are flat out impossible. What the hell is kirby going to do against Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik? All wishful thinking aside, that **** is downright impossible.

I know this has already been said countless times (too lazy to read all the past posts):

You should check the individual character specifics boards, find their matchups, and use that. You should do that for the low / bottom tiers especially. It looks as if you guys thought "well this character sucks so they should stand no chance against these characters". Here's what I've heard on some specific low tiers. Don't quote me here as I'm not 100% sure, but check it out anyways.

Pichu does fairly well against Fox due to chaingrabs, and general comboability (up-air, up-throw chaingrab, etc.). It's still in fox's favour, but definitely not an impossible matchup.

G&W counters (or does very well against) the space animals / fastfallers. He can chaingrab them (up-throw, or down-throw at higher percents), and just in general combo them pretty easily. I believe the G&W boards say he counters the space animals.

I've heard Yoshi does well against Marth, and Kirby is about even with Sheik. I don't know if either is true or not, but I've heard both from many different people.

Bottom line, check the low tier matchup charts, as they give more accurate results. Some results may surprize you (like GaW vs Spacies).

I'm not sure what matches you've been watching. Maybe matches between really, really, really bad players and low tiers? The only time Kirby, Pichu, Mewtwo, Zelda, or Roy will ever beat the high tiers, is if the person playing them is grossly better than their opponent (by some large, incalculable margin).

I also cannot believe you have the gall to even assume that Kirby/Sheik is EVEN. Come on man, use your head.

A Yoshi, no matter how good he is, is never going to beat M2k's Marth.

Bad point I know, but I can't really dismantle your post with logic. The things you said make no sense to me. Maybe if you describe why Kirby is even with Sheik, I'll be more accepting of your views.

Vanz thinks Falcon is way better than he is and underestimates Falco vs. Fox (it's even).

I don't feel like I can ever lose to a Ganon in tourney. I feel like in friendlies, Ganon vs. Falco is even but once Falco decides to play like a homo it's strongly in his favor.

anywho, anything more I have to say in this thread has already been beaten to death by Pocky, Dogy, and myself, so as much as I'd love to have this thread not happen, I don't really have any power to stop it... peace[/unsubscribes]

I still can't understand why we can't have a nice, big discussion to try to improve this chart as a group. If we are having problems coming up with one, wouldn't it be better to get all of the smashers in one place and talk it out? I predict that every time someone tries to make something like this for smash, it will get mercilessly shot down. We need to stop walking back to our own/pros subjective opinions and/or phanna's EXTREMELY outdated chart. Lets just stop being little *****es and get along.

 

[Europhoria]

Sheik:Ganondorf - 55:45 (this match up is closer than people think)

Lolwut >_>

Edit: Notice how all of Vanz mains somehow have no match ups above well... even. Super judgment ftw

 

[Binx]

Ganon vs Sheik is closer than what people think, the problem is that Sheik is faster and if the sheik *really* uses that speed correctly she gains a good deal of control, they both chain grab eachother basically to death, and Ganon has more range.

The real disadvantage for Ganon comes from movement speed, which is still closer than what you would think with platforms involved, good Ganons can move pretty well. Where Sheik has a big advantage is having needles. Needle's don't matter because of the damage they do, or the stun, they matter because they force approaches from ganon who is already a slow character, its not like its impossible to get around but it hurts his options enough to make the difference.

At a high level of play a match being 40/60 if thats what you want to call it is a BIG deal, everyone acts like its nothing but if you really look at it, the 60 has 33% more valid options in the match up, thats a HUGE difference in character viability, and another reason I dislike numbers for ratings.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Ganon vs Sheik is closer than what people think, the problem is that Sheik is faster and if the sheik *really* uses that speed correctly she gains a good deal of control, they both chain grab eachother basically to death, and Ganon has more range.

The real disadvantage for Ganon comes from movement speed, which is still closer than what you would think with platforms involved, good Ganons can move pretty well. Where Sheik has a big advantage is having needles. Needle's don't matter because of the damage they do, or the stun, they matter because they force approaches from ganon who is already a slow character, its not like its impossible to get around but it hurts his options enough to make the difference.

At a high level of play a match being 40/60 if thats what you want to call it is a BIG deal, everyone acts like its nothing but if you really look at it, the 60 has 33% more valid options in the match up, thats a HUGE difference in character viability, and another reason I dislike numbers for ratings.

True dat. My Ganon is totally limited if a person who knows how to use a Sheik well provokes me with needles. This is why Ganon is terrible against Sheik in flat stages with no platforms like Final Destination. Thankfully, other stages with platforms allow other modes of transportation that allow Ganon to avoid Sheik's needles since Sheik cannot shoot needles up-wards. However, it is much easier for Sheik to grab Ganon because her jc-grabs are much faster and mobile than Ganon's jc-grabs, so Sheik has more of an advantage with Chain-Grabs. As a Sheik Main said in a Sheik thread, Ganon should never be able to get the first grab against a Sheik.

Finally, Ganon's recovery is gimpable by Sheik. If Ganon does not sweet-spot his recovery, then Sheik can pop him up with a d-tilt and hit him with a F-air, which would kill him in 40-50% or more. At the same time, Ganon can only gimp Sheik's recovery before she activiates her up-B which Ganons should try to reverse u-air when Sheik is quite far from the edge.

Therefore, I agree with the 40-60 (Sheik's favor)

 

[idea]

ehh...last time i saw kage vs. kirbykaze in brackets it didn't look very close at all =P i wonder what either of them has to say about it.

 

[Europhoria]

You actually have no idea what you're talking about. I've watched Kage get consistently ***** by Kirbykaze... it's not even remotely close.
Some ideas for you to consider:
-Ganon moves a lot slower then Sheik
-Needles force Ganon to move very predictably
-Ganon's moves come out really slow compared to Sheik (except jab, but he can't approach with that)
-Off stage Ganon dies at any % right away if the Sheik knows what edge guarding is +Ganon gets put off stage from almost any single grab or hit
-Sheik's shield is really hard to hit through/Ganon has huge problems ever grabbing a good Sheik

Kage beating crappy Sheiks =/= close match up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hardly **** Kage these days.

I think it's pretty easy for Sheik though, Kage's much better than me and if I can do well against him it's probably not because of super secret skill or anything.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

You actually have no idea what you're talking about. I've watched Kage get consistently ***** by Kirbykaze... it's not even remotely close.
Some ideas for you to consider:
-Ganon moves a lot slower then Sheik
-Needles force Ganon to move very predictably
-Ganon's moves come out really slow compared to Sheik (except jab, but he can't approach with that)
-Off stage Ganon dies at any % right away if the Sheik knows what edge guarding is +Ganon gets put off stage from almost any single grab or hit
-Sheik's shield is really hard to hit through/Ganon has huge problems ever grabbing a good Sheik

Kage beating crappy Sheiks =/= close match up.

Umm, you basically reiterated most of the things that I said except for a few points.

And plus you are only observing one Ganon pro. There are some Ganon players who are better with certain match-ups such as Ganon vs Sheik.

 

[Europhoria]

Iunno, your post was confusing. You start it by saying the match up is close and then you discuss what Sheik can do to do Ganon. I'm basically taking the stance that Ganon can't do very much to Sheik and therefore is screwed because of those things.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Anyways, thanks for clearing up what I said.

40-60 is not that close though; It is still far apart. I was leaning towards 40-60 in Sheik's favor because I have had some experience against some Sheiks. I would accept 35-65 in Sheik's favor, but nothing lower.

 

[RaynEX]

True dat. My Ganon is totally limited if a person who knows how to use a Sheik well provokes me with needles. This is why Ganon is terrible against Sheik in flat stages with no platforms like Final Destination.

No, it is simply one small reason as to why he is bad there. I'd wager that getting CGed to death is a hell of a lot worse for Ganon than getting needled. Ganon is terrible against Sheik on FD because dthrow completely destroys his stock.

since Sheik cannot shoot needles up-wards.

Ahh. I see.

However, it is much easier for Sheik to grab Ganon because her jc-grabs are much faster and mobile than Ganon's jc-grabs, so Sheik has more of an advantage with Chain-Grabs.

hmm. The speed of the actual grab doesn't really matter. Mobility and who can move faster is what matters. Just because Sheik grabs maybe 2-3 frames faster than Ganon doesn't mean she'll land any more grabs. I agree that Sheik will get more grabs on average, but for different reasons.

Finally, Ganon's recovery is gimpable by Sheik.

Lets be honest here. Ganon's recovery is "gimpable" by everyone. Using his bad recovery to justify why Sheik wins the match-up is fail. Its so commonly accepted it isn't even worth mentioning imo.

If Ganon does not sweet-spot his recovery, then Sheik can pop him up with a d-tilt and hit him with a F-air, which would kill him in 40-50% or more.

As a Ganon main, you should probably know this. It is impossible for C.Fal and Ganon to sweetspot. They always pop up over the edge, no matter how low they try to go. Again, common knowledge ftw.


Conclusion:

I agree with Sheik/Ganon being 60/40. But because:

-Sheik's moves come out faster. Alot faster

-Ganon's priority means **** when his moves come out that slow.

-CG both ways, but Sheik has a projectile, more mobility and faster moves which would allow her to manuever around Ganon and set up grabs easier.

-Both have good edge-guarding, but Sheik's is clearly better. This is partly because Ganon's recovery is very linear/predictable. Partly because Sheik is just flat out broken.

-Sheik can combo Ganon 10000x easier. Almost off of any move, too.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Yes, I did not mention a lot more things about Ganon vs Sheik since someone like you would fill in for me. However, I worded the sweet-spot about Ganon wrong. Thankfully you caught that so no one would think otherwise of what you said. I'm glad that you agree with me for the 40-60 of Sheik's favor. Thank you for filling in the gap for me =)

 

[Dark Hart]

Why are all the main contributors Canadian?

 

[Cia]

this really confuses me. how does falcon beat jiggs? how does peach? and ganondorf? i'd put all of those in jiggs' favour. (peach makes the most sense to me - turnips, spaced fairs, recovery - but i think bair still beats everything she has)

there's no way fox is as bad for jiggs as falcon O_O
falco i'll believe, that one seems more variable (and dependent on the falco's tech skill), but it will be tough to convince me that fox and falcon are equally bad for jiggs. i'd put the first one as fox winning by a lot and the second as jiggs winning by a little.

you're forgetting how well Peach's pressure game works against puff. in addition to that, jiggs is one of the few characters that peach has a solid camp game against.

about Falconuff vs Foxuff - you're right about that. it was an oversight on my part. but that only makes me change the Foxuff match up to 65:35. While not as bad as fox, Falcon's bair camp against puff is one of the most unbearable chores of playing melee. and contrary to popular belief, he CAN combo jigglypuff. but they usually max at like 3 hits. does that matter? No. Why? because Puff dies at like 70% from Falcon's Fair on most neutrals. and dependent on the aerial, he can do like 10-18 damage per hit.

I agree. Fox ***** Jiggs harder than Falcon does. I think that when it comes to talking about a person's main, they try to make their character seem as terrible as possible to make them feel better about using that them. I mean, I'd do that - but I main Fox. He's already so insanely broken. <3 Vanz

I addressed the Fox:Jiggs drama above. regarding you're claim about my character bias, i'm going to completely dismiss that. I understand what my alleged 'main' is capable of. not only that, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the characters i did match ups for are characters that i rotate almost evenly in tournament. (except falcon and ganon, i don't use them that much)

Vanz thinks Falcon is way better than he is and underestimates Falco vs. Fox (it's even).

I don't feel like I can ever lose to a Ganon in tourney. I feel like in friendlies, Ganon vs. Falco is even but once Falco decides to play like a homo it's strongly in his favor.[/unsubscribes]

well MOGWAI, people try to make falcon look like a helpless mistake of a character. that only hold's true when he's off the ledge. otherwise he's devastating. and i really couldn't care less about anyone who says otherwise. in addition. he's the only character that can jump like a third of FD in one short hop. (and in like one second!) that's longer than every characters tech roll, enjoy being tech chased. and don't tech roll near the ledge. a bad DI at 50% may have just costed you your stock. all because you got what? fair'd.

Hey, why don't you money match my Falcon?? he's a bad character right? and you're clearly confident against him. i'm confident too. sounds like a money match would be interesting.

Lolwut >_>

Edit: Notice how all of Vanz mains somehow have no match ups above well... even. Super judgment ftw

.. you CLEARLY don't like me for some reason. and that's ok. it would suck if i was liked by everyone. but i addressed a similar claim like this in response to raynex's post. so see that.

also.. sheik is one of my favorite characters. and i personally think that sheik is more or less even with fox. most people think fox just ***** sheik w/o much problem. now if i were somehow trying to make it seem that maining my characters are difficult, don't you think i would have jumped at the chance to give sheik a worse match up?

------

i just realized that i just got ***** by canada. and mogwai.

 

[rehab]

The best matchup chart I've ever seen had 3 super pros of each character giving their biased but educated opinions of each matchup their character has. These didn't have to correspond with players having opposing character's view of it exactly so people don't need to quibble with their explanations of the matchups as much as a defined list, gave a relatively fair way of sharing opinions on the matches and prompted people interested in discrepancies in the chart to look up what it is about the match that's weird and might cause for varied opinions on the match.

just throwing that out there

 

[KirbyKaze]

I like you Vanz D:

 

[Europhoria]

I don't dislike you Vanz but outside of like 1-2 match ups you rate all your own character's match ups down. Sheik v. Falcon, Sheik v. Ganon, Jiggs v. Ganon, Peach v. Climbers, etc.

Step back from how YOU might be doing and try to look at it better.

 

[worldjem7]

Why are all the main contributors Canadian?

Because, I live in Canada and the only pros around me close enough to gather to talk about this are Canadian. lol

They were the main contributers for the base chart that's up now. After a while, there will be more names up as the chart gets updated.

 

[RaynEX]

Why are all the main contributors Canadian?

Why have all the main contributors for match-up related topics/charts been only American? Majority johns aren't allowed, sorry. Even Canada's views count for something. All we want is light hearted discussion.

I addressed the Fox:Jiggs drama above. regarding you're claim about my character bias, i'm going to completely dismiss that. I understand what my alleged 'main' is capable of. not only that, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the characters i did match ups for are characters that i rotate almost evenly in tournament. (except falcon and ganon, i don't use them that much)

You should play Ganon.

.. you CLEARLY don't like me for some reason. and that's ok. it would suck if i was liked by everyone. but i addressed a similar claim like this in response to raynex's post. so see that.

I don't dislike you either. We just disagree on some points. All of us in here have strong opinions about this game we spend so much time playing.

 

[HighFlyer]

I'd like to make a little contribution.
Now I may not be pro, but I'm most definatly not a noob. Even though this is my first post ever!

First the DK vs. C.Falcon match-up :

I think this match up is more towards being broke even than a 70-30 in Falcon's favor.
DK has grab to either high % and/or stock. Unless DI'd correctly, but still...getting grabbed by DK isn't exactly a roller-coaster ride. (or maybe it is in a bad way?) DK has just a fair amount of approach techniques as Falcon. And (well maybe this is just me sucking at edge-guarding) DK's recovery is GAAAAAAAAAY... On the other side of things, Falcon has speed and combos(which are pretty easy to get off on DK, being a big target and all) I'm not sure, and maybe its just me, but DK vs. Falcon is definatly not a 70-30 match-up.

Also DK vs Boy :

Besides having teh f1r3 (obvisouly meaning he haz pro-skillz) he has..........uh.................wait......................................................................................
OK so Roy sucks, but not 20-80 vs DK......................................Fine maybe it is. Poor boy.

Lastly I'd like to say I like Vanz for having a nice sized font to read.

 

[DippnDots]

Sheik doesn't have a single counter pick? Or bad match up? Like, fo realzies?

Edit:

I thought the following

Doc vs Sheik 50-50

Luigi vs Sheik 55-45

Fox vs Sheik 55-45

Falco vs Sheik 50-50


Luigi and Doc for not being combo'd as easily / excellent combo or chaingrab game on sheik

and the spacies for just being spacies.

 

[RaynEX]

Luigi vs. Sheik in Luigi's FAVOUR?

*facepalm*

 

[idea]

you're forgetting how well Peach's pressure game works against puff. in addition to that, jiggs is one of the few characters that peach has a solid camp game against.

about Falconuff vs Foxuff - you're right about that. it was an oversight on my part. but that only makes me change the Foxuff match up to 65:35. While not as bad as fox, Falcon's bair camp against puff is one of the most unbearable chores of playing melee. and contrary to popular belief, he CAN combo jigglypuff. but they usually max at like 3 hits. does that matter? No. Why? because Puff dies at like 70% from Falcon's Fair on most neutrals. and dependent on the aerial, he can do like 10-18 damage per hit.

yeah, i agree there, falcon can definitely combo and kill jigglypuff...plus he has a few aerials that can actually hit her. but man. crouch just devastates the poor guy.

and about peach...i agree that she has that going for her, but i still feel like bair beats her camping =P maybe if she could move faster. that said, i'm not very experienced with the matchup (vwins lives far away )= ) so i'll take your word for it on this one. ...also if you hit peach with rests there's not a lot she can do to punish you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik beats Doc and Luigi.

Luigi cannot chain throw Sheik, only Doc and Mario can do that of the three.

Unfortunately, it's not a very good chain throw, IMO, in that it only works to like 50-55, so if the Sheik is smart, they'll probably be able to recover with just their double jump and adequately protect themselves during descent. Not only that, but Doc's got stubby arms and a poor grab range. Sheik, conversely, has none of these issues, and can poke at him very, very safely, and string him into simple, effective edgeguards with greater ease than vice versa.

Luigi is just not good against Sheik. His slippery wavedash is nullified by needles and his priority rendered useless by Sheik's greater priority (and range). Not being able to combo him is a myth, you just need to be crafty and bait his Nair, taking advantage of him not being able to move much when he's hit by stuff even if he does break out of stun quickly. Moreover on such a gimpable character, you don't exactly need to be able to combo him for many hits, just a few simple needle --> grab --> Fairs and F-tilt --> Fairs to poke him off the stage into an impossible recovery is sufficient.

I won't argue its numerical ratios, but I think many people (Doc / Luigi mains included) would agree that Sheik's one of Doc's worst matchups and one of Luigi's worst matchups, if not his worst matchup.

 

[TheManaLord]

this is awesome, good **** eric!

 

[Nintendude]

As an experienced ICs main I'll share my opinion on all the IC matchups:

Opponent: IC:Opponent

Sheik: 45:55
Fox: 30:70
Falco: 45:55
Marth: 35:65
Jiggly: 50:50
Peach: 25:75
C. Falcon: 50:50
Ganondorf: 65:35
Samus: 40:60
ICs: 50:50 (STUPID MATCHUP LOL)
Luigi: 45:55
Doc: 55:45
Pikachu: 60:40
DK: 80:20
Link: 60:40
Mario: 55:45
Y.Link: 60:40
G&W: 60:40
Zelda: 55:45
Bowser: 90:10
Mewtwo: 70:30
Roy: 70:30
Ness: 65:35
Yoshi: 60:40
Pichu: 80:20
Kirby: 80:20

I don't feel like explaining them all so I'll respond to individual questions. To be honest, Bowser and below are mostly educated guesses as I haven't played those out much.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon, DK, Fox, Marth, Peach, Luigi, and Samus are the numbers I am most interested in. Please elaborate.

 

[Nintendude]

Ganondorf: Honestly I think the matchup is extremely similar to the Falcon matchup except Ganon just doesn't do it as well as Falcon. His strong blows can separate the ICs but he lacks the ability to capitalize as well on that as Falcon can. He can't pressure/overwhelm them like Falcon can and his lack of speed makes him easier to grab.

(based on experience vs. Phish-it)

DK: DK gets *****. The only thing he really has going for him is bair camping but that really isn't all that hard to get around when you have blizzard/ice shot and a really good shield game. Pretty much all of ICs' combos work on DK since he falls pretty quickly and he's a huge target, but he can't really combo them back. Getting a grab on DK is ridiculously easy since it's so easy to punish / approach him with a jab as long as you aren't being an idiot and running into a bair.

(based on experience vs. Phish-it and Kwan)

Fox: imo this is pretty awful and the only reason it isn't worse than 30:70 is Fox can get messed up really badly with a single mistake. He's like Falcon only Shine wrecks them even worse than all of the stuff Falcon can separate them with (Shine also makes him unusually hard to grab). A shine anywhere near the edge will send one of them off the stage and even if the IC avoids the gimp, you can only recover so safely with a single squall and Fox can capitalize so easily from it. Fox also totally outprioritizes everything except smashes and up-tilt, and once he gets in you get shined then it takes at least half your stock to gather yourself and regain momentum. He can also effectively counterpick them to pretty much anywhere.

(based on experience vs. PC, Sensei, Eggm, Kip, Swift, many more)

Marth: ICs are actually surprisingly good at getting inside due to their shield game, and it's pretty evident in a lot of Chu matches. Uair is great at exploiting Marth's weaknesses from below. Other than that Marth is still pretty tough just cause of how good a character he is and he's really good at camping them, poking away.

(based on experience vs. HBK, Emblem Lord, Sol, PC, and a bunch of other Marths)

Peach: I probably won't be saying anything new here. Peach's down-smash wrecks them (spins Nana backwards so she can't grab the ledge), she's almost impossible to approach and punish when using FC'd aerials, she outprioritizes just about everything, she can camp them really well, etc. On the plus side for ICs, shielded down-smashes can be punished with a grab (death) and with the exception of Mute City, they prefer similar stages.

(based on experience vs Ryoko, Bailey, Cort)

Luigi: He's one of the few characters who can beat them on the ground. The fact that both characters have bad traction really makes it tricky for ICs to punish anything since either or both characters will slide away when, for example, something gets shielded. Luigi's extra speed with his wavedash and down-b allow him to punish things the ICs can't. He's also really hard to combo yet he can combo them well. They share counterpicks.

Samus: The matchup is a lot more even than people think it is. Ice Shot spam can compete with Missile barrage as long as you make sure you shield a little early so Nana doesn't get hit to the delay in her actions. Samus is really slow in both the air and on the ground, so she can't exploit the ICs' air weakness but can get overwhelmed on the ground as well once they get past the spam and tilts. In the air she has a hard time dealing with Uair. ICs' strength negates Samus's survivability. They share counterpicks. I still say it's in Samus's favor because once she breaks the ICs momentum she can do some serious damage before they regain control and Nana does get gimped by missiles pretty easily.

(based on experience vs. Bino, Alukard)

 

[Cia]

i don't think ICz is THAT bad against Peach. i have a harder time with marth than i do peach. just be more aerial against peach.

and yes, plz explain ganon. i've always thought that he ***** them.

RayneX - i do play ganon. ask Kage, he's seen it. it's good :D

Idea - crouching only ***** falcon if they continuously approach from the ground. Dair approach ***** crouch. it keeps her low enough to follow up with kneeeeeee.

Europhoria - i've based my numbers not only off of experience but also off of the opinions of Tristate's top players. the reason i feel Sheik:falcon is so close is mainly because of how many C.Falcon's label sheik as their best high tier match up. in addition to how many time's i've personally lost to scar's falcon with sheik.

Sheik:Ganon - they both CG each other. sheik is faster. it's more likely she'll get her's first. edge guard. stock. it's probable that ganon will do the same next. on most stages, this is not a **** match up. but favorable for sheik. many ganon mains agree with me on this.

Ganon:Jiggs - .. ok. there's a good chance i may have been wrong about this. i based this solely off of my experience against tipman and kage. Yeah, it's likely jigglypuff will land a rest after landing an Uair or Utilt. but with intentional west coast DI, ganon is back an most likely taking the stock. not only that, but did you know Dthrow > Usmash will kill jigglypuff at 55% on FD?? that's terrible. ganon's spaced aerial game haunts jiggs. especially since it takes like 4-5 to kill her. As for Jigglypuff, she can edgeguard him to hell. that was the knowledge i used to come up with my ratio. and i still stand by it for now. but with some more experience and with the knowledge of other people experienced in the match up, i may change my mind.

Peach:Ice Climbers - Believe it or not, i was looking at this match up from the Ice climbers side. i play them alot too and peach is one of my preferred match ups. Most Ice climbers instantly give in to knowledge that Dsmash wrecks them. So they play with the intent to fail never learning how to win. they can space her really well. and they're grabs are just as devastating to her as they are to everyone else. the biggest problem is keeping peach away once she gets in. On FD, Battlefield, and P.Stadium. i think the match up close enough to where the person that plays better wins.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd like to make a little contribution.
Now I may not be pro, but I'm most definatly not a noob. Even though this is my first post ever!

First the DK vs. C.Falcon match-up :

I think this match up is more towards being broke even than a 70-30 in Falcon's favor.
DK has grab to either high % and/or stock. Unless DI'd correctly, but still...getting grabbed by DK isn't exactly a roller-coaster ride. (or maybe it is in a bad way?) DK has just a fair amount of approach techniques as Falcon. And (well maybe this is just me sucking at edge-guarding) DK's recovery is GAAAAAAAAAY... On the other side of things, Falcon has speed and combos(which are pretty easy to get off on DK, being a big target and all) I'm not sure, and maybe its just me, but DK vs. Falcon is definatly not a 70-30 match-up.

Also DK vs Boy :

No. Donkey Kong cannot kill Falcon from a grab at 0%. It's impossible. Chaingrabs do not exist, and cargo-upthrow -> upair lets Falcon jump out (no air-tumble and little hitstun). I have killed from 28% on a falcon though.

Donkey Kong doesn't have much options against Falcon, either. Falcon can combo Donkey Kong like crazy from almost any attack, and has a Knee, which is basically a Donkey Punch that doesn't need to be charged. >_> Both characters have bad recovery, though.
It's 60-40 in Falcon's favor, IMO.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

I sort of agree with Ganon's match up against Icys in Nintendude1189 post.

However, it should not be as low as 35:65 in Icys favor; it should be at least 45:55. Icys **** Ganon when they are together, but one seperation and basically they are done for that stock. Ganon edgeguards Icys well while they can edgeguard Ganon as well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nintendude:

I ask about DK because to my knowledge, none of Bum, Mexican, or PKM (when he played DK) held ICs as a particularly huge threat to DK. Back air camp and platform camp with periodic Giant Punches doesn't seem like a horrible strategy, and Ice Blocks aren't nearly as good an anti-camp projectile as lasers or whatever. They slide across the ground, which is good for getting people airborne, but on more stages than not, DK has more than one platform to pick from.

I do agree that Blizzard is good against DK, but I don't think ICs are so good as to produce that large an advantage. I think DK can fight back adequately on most neutral stages, and probably has the advantage on a significant amount of the gay stages.

Lastly, I don't see how a character who pushes them so far away from him could be so disadvantaged against ICs. Ganon's aerials are largely difficult to punish for them, and they KO Nana at absurd percents. His jab is very painful to their ground game, additionally. Toss in a ban to FD and I don't know if ICs are really all that hot against him.

 

[idea]

Idea - crouching only ***** falcon if they continuously approach from the ground. Dair approach ***** crouch. it keeps her low enough to follow up with kneeeeeee.

Ganon:Jiggs - .. ok. there's a good chance i may have been wrong about this. i based this solely off of my experience against tipman and kage. Yeah, it's likely jigglypuff will land a rest after landing an Uair or Utilt. but with intentional west coast DI, ganon is back an most likely taking the stock. not only that, but did you know Dthrow > Usmash will kill jigglypuff at 55% on FD?? that's terrible. ganon's spaced aerial game haunts jiggs. especially since it takes like 4-5 to kill her. As for Jigglypuff, she can edgeguard him to hell. that was the knowledge i used to come up with my ratio. and i still stand by it for now. but with some more experience and with the knowledge of other people experienced in the match up, i may change my mind.

yeah, but if the falcon starts using dair a lot you start uptilting through it =D =D
i know falcon has counters to a lot of jiggs' stupid crap in that matchup, but that's just it, it always feels like the onus is on falcon to adapt. jiggs has so much built in that she can do.

jiggs-ganon i'm honestly not sure about. i feel very comfortable with it, but that could just be me. also i've really only played kage's ganon, in the way of top ganon mains, and then only in friendlies.

and yeah, raynex showed me that dthrow upsmash thing <_< i hate that

but both these matchups i'm not that sure about. i feel very comfortable with both and that could confuse things a bit. i can't tell if that's the matchup or if it's just me...especially since it feels okay to play my falcon (*bad*) against someone else's jiggs.

anyway. i forget what we both started out saying =P but i think in falcon-jiggs, jiggs wins, and i'm thinking either 60-40 or 55-45...and in ganon-jiggs, trying to account for my own bias i'll say it's about even, and i could probably be persuaded 5 points in either direction.

 

[Cia]

Nintendude:

I ask about DK because to my knowledge, none of Bum, Mexican, or PKM (when he played DK) held ICs as a particularly huge threat to DK. Back air camp and platform camp with periodic Giant Punches doesn't seem like a horrible strategy, and Ice Blocks aren't nearly as good an anti-camp projectile as lasers or whatever. They slide across the ground, which is good for getting people airborne, but on more stages than not, DK has more than one platform to pick from.

I do agree that Blizzard is good against DK, but I don't think ICs are so good as to produce that large an advantage. I think DK can fight back adequately on most neutral stages, and probably has the advantage on a significant amount of the gay stages.

Lastly, I don't see how a character who pushes them so far away from him could be so disadvantaged against ICs. Ganon's aerials are largely difficult to punish for them, and they KO Nana at absurd percents. His jab is very painful to their ground game, additionally. Toss in a ban to FD and I don't know if ICs are really all that hot against him.

you're right. Bum laughs at ICz. he waits til they approach. spams Earthquake (or w/e that's called). if they do an aerial. CC > Grab > Bthrow > **** popo > **** nana > nana dies > **** popo. if the ICz camps, DK charges a punch. punch destroys them if they shield it or not. i always thought of the match as even. but Nintendude probably knows more.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well, I don't think Earthquake works too well, since a dual Fair / Bair will knock him over at surprisingly low percents (even for DK standards), but I still don't think it's too bad for DK. The punch does mess them up.