Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Fortress | Sveet]

i don't think i've ever seen drill reset work. i've had a few good players do it to me, but its so easy to just hold away and you will fall off the platform. you don't have to be right next to the edge because its not the last hit of the drill that they use to reset, they usually rise through with dair and then land.

 

[D20]

I just took a quick look at the Young Link match ups (since he's the only character I have any authority on), and I have to admit that the numbers are almost dead on (not that anyone really cares anyway). At any rate, here are my thoughts...

PEACH: It's about time that someone actually got the Young Link/Peach match up right. Anyone that still thinks Young Link counters Peach is an idiot. There are plenty of top players out there that have a decent Young Link, and (to my knowledge) none of them ever pull him out for this match up. However, I would love to see someone try to use Young Link against Armada just to see how badly it would end. The whole misconception of this match up began when people saw the Getting School'd 2 videos of Caveman beating Krazy Jones (which are now nearly 4 years old). Peach has evolved so much since then, and Young Link has not. I would say that the match up is, at worst, 60/40 in favor of Peach.

FOX: This is, in my opinion, Young Link's worst match up. While Sheik can CG Young Link from about 20-80%, this is only applicable on a few stages (none of which are Young Link's best counterpicks). Fox can camp Young Link, gimp his recovery, and combo him very easily with upairs. I have never heard of any instance in which a top level Young Link has beaten a top level Fox. Videos or it didn't happen. I think the match up is 15/85 in favor of Fox.

SHEIK: I don't think this match up is as terrible as most people believe it to be. I've had success against quality Sheik players in the past, and I watched Jash beat Tope in a tournament set at *pound* 3. Yes, it is a bad match up. Is it 15/85 bad? Nah, it's probably only 20/80 bad.

I'll probably comment on a few more of Young Link's match ups later.

 

[unknown522]

^ Actually on the next update, we have sheik as 80-20. We have fox as the same, though I agree with you that Fox is YL's worst matchup.

I also think that falcon and falco are about as bad for YL.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Id say I havent tried to get out of the drill thing but it works pretty well. The majority arent just getting out of it making it a bad technique like falco dthrow cuz thats almost always tech if they want to.

Id still give 55 45 fox but im fine with saying even and adv goes to personal stage preference.

I care not to continue arguing over 5 % that means nothing to me.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

but falco wins the matchup if its not even.

 

[KAOSTAR]

but falco wins the matchup if its not even.

Fine, next subject, and **** YOU

 

[Blatt Blvd]

kaostar:

low tier?

or bottom?

i say dead last/gay.

 

[Smoke and smash]

If sheik has the best matchups, even better than fox, explain how sheik is not the best character in the game. Smashboard's philosophy makes no sense to me. Get your head's out of your ***** people. Shiek is the best character.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

she is the best.

so is marth fox and maybe falco.

 

[joeplicate]

kaostar:

low tier?

or bottom?

i say dead last/gay.

**** blvd

 

[Hazygoose]

If sheik has the best matchups, even better than fox, explain how sheik is not the best character in the game. Smashboard's philosophy makes no sense to me. Get your head's out of your ***** people. Shiek is the best character.

having 90-10 matchups with almost all mid/low/bottom tiers does not yield different results in a tournament scene than having 70-30 matchups.
just because fox owns some characters less than sheik doesn't mean his greater advantages vs high and top tiers should be blended in.

as far as the matchup chart in this thread is concerned, having a 20% larger advantage vs ICs and 10% vs jiggly is far more important than sheik's 10% on pichu and link.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If sheik has the best matchups, even better than fox, explain how sheik is not the best character in the game. Smashboard's philosophy makes no sense to me. Get your head's out of your ***** people. Shiek is the best character.

...

Weigh match-ups based on importance (and importance is decided by overall match-ups, due a few transformations and eventually it will become accurate).

Also, all hard-counters produce the same effective results.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

If sheik has the best matchups, even better than fox, explain how sheik is not the best character in the game. Smashboard's philosophy makes no sense to me. Get your head's out of your ***** people. Shiek is the best character.

having 90-10 matchups with almost all mid/low/bottom tiers does not yield different results in a tournament scene than having 70-30 matchups.
just because fox owns some characters less than sheik doesn't mean his greater advantages vs high and top tiers should be blended in.

as far as the matchup chart in this thread is concerned, having a 20% larger advantage vs ICs and 10% vs jiggly is far more important than sheik's 10% on pichu and link.

Exactly. Fox does better against high and top tiers than Sheik does and is therefore higher in the tiers. Seeing as Fox will encounter many more high and top tiers than mid, low, and bottom tiers, the better matchups in top and high are much more important. Whether Fox ***** Pichu 70-30 or Sheik ***** Pichu 90-10 is irrelevant, Pichu still loses.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Ok, lets weigh the importance, shall we? Sheik raaaaaaaaaaapes marth. It's not 65/35 it's more like 80/20. Marth is played so heavily in the competitive scene it's not even funny. Sheik takes care of falcon too easily as well, that's more like a 70/30 matchup. Falcons are always around in tourneys so that's 2 auto-wins right there. Two guarenteed wins vs 2 extremely popular high tier characters. After that she has no bad matchups versus any of other other top tier chars. Fox is an even fight, sorry. And ice's are only used as a counterpick and besides nobody knows how to play ice's anymore. The IC meta has been slipping steadily.

Fox is 2nd to shiek guys.

 

[NES n00b]

Ok, lets weigh the importance, shall we? Sheik raaaaaaaaaaapes marth. It's not 65/35 it's more like 80/20. Marth is played so heavily in the competitive scene it's not even funny. Sheik takes care of falcon too easily as well, that's more like a 70/30 matchup. Falcons are always around in tourneys so that's 2 auto-wins right there. Two guarenteed wins vs 2 extremely popular high tier characters. After that she has no bad matchups versus any of other other top tier chars. Fox is an even fight, sorry. And ice's are only used as a counterpick and besides nobody knows how to play ice's anymore. The IC meta has been slipping steadily.

Fox is 2nd to shiek guys.

8/10 or 4/5. I would have given more points if the matchup ratio for Marth wasn't so exaggerated.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fox beats sheik. its not a counter match up, but fox wins. fox's lasers are SOOOOO much better than falco's, you don't have to dodge them but they are really fast an basically nonpunishable. sheik is forced to approach, and any sheik main will tell you that you don't ever want to have to do that.

marth vs sheik isnt completely ****, but its really hard for marth. sheik can camp marth out and her range is one of the best. her grab is almost as big as marths, you can actually run straight at marth when he jumps and shield his aerial. its really hard to space if you dont see it coming. marth has to work really hard to get his kills on sheik, but it is possible for him to combo sheik to death. sheik can easily combo marth for like 30-40% from any hit. basically, marth has to play really really safe and sheik is free to do lots of trixxx

 

[Strong Badam]

at mid level i can see why people think that marth gets completely ***** by sheik
but at high level play, the match-up seems to not be so bad. it's kind of hard to explain but it just kinda doesn't o.O

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Marth vs Shiek is no where near 80/20. What teh ****.

 

[Smoke and smash]

At high level, the matchup is still pretty bad. I've seen all I need to see at NES.

Fox doesn't just "beat sheik". It's an even matchup, and fox still has to put that work in.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Even skill, sheik beats marth 80/20 no problem. 65/35 is a blatant lie.

 

[john!]

Midwest pretty much owns this thread lol.

Even skill, sheik beats marth 80/20 no problem. 65/35 is a blatant lie.

No top tier matchup can be that lopsided. If the Marth is good at edgeguarding (which Marths should be) the matchup becomes around 60/40 I think. And that's the most lopsided of the top 3 imo... they all go relatively even with each other, compared with something like Sheik-Falcon.

 

[Strong Badam]

okay thank you Smash n00b who joined.... within the past two days?

 

[NES n00b]

Even skill, sheik beats marth 80/20 no problem. 65/35 is a blatant lie.

9/10 good double post. Whether accidental or attentional, even "skill" is a hilarious typo for still. I like that.

Also putting NES instead of SNES made me laugh cause well the obvious affiliation of my name. I had to double check to see if it wasn't referencing me.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol... what Marths have you been playing against smokey?

 

[Smoke and smash]

9/10 good double post. Whether accidental or attentional, even "skill" is a hilarious typo for still. I like that.

Also putting NES instead of SNES made me laugh cause well the obvious affiliation of my name. I had to double check to see if it wasn't referencing me.

Don't be so full of yourself.



Strong_bad, go **** yourself. Smash noob is label that I received for making this account. You know, the number of posts I have clearly reflects my knowledge and over-all skill level in thbis game. I've been playing this game for ****ing ever.

 

[NES n00b]

Don't be so full of yourself.



Strong_bad, go **** yourself. Smash noob is label that I received for making this account. You know, the number of posts I have clearly reflects my knowledge and over-all skill level in thbis game. I've been playing this game for ****ing ever.

If this is Wendell, I will laugh hard.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

trolls are so funny

 

[Smoke and smash]

trolls are so funny

Actually, you aren't funny so that statement is wrong.

 

[joeplicate]

i agree @ sveet

dude, marth vs sheik is like at least 115/-20 in sheiks favor
haven't you seen KOREAN DJ VS MEW2KING
I rest my case

 

[NES n00b]

Sorry to disappoint you.

You are right, this is a different kind of posting from Wendell. Wendell is not nearly as hilarious.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, lets weigh the importance, shall we? Sheik raaaaaaaaaaapes marth. It's not 65/35 it's more like 80/20. Marth is played so heavily in the competitive scene it's not even funny. Sheik takes care of falcon too easily as well, that's more like a 70/30 matchup. Falcons are always around in tourneys so that's 2 auto-wins right there. Two guarenteed wins vs 2 extremely popular high tier characters. After that she has no bad matchups versus any of other other top tier chars. Fox is an even fight, sorry. And ice's are only used as a counterpick and besides nobody knows how to play ice's anymore. The IC meta has been slipping steadily.

Fox is 2nd to shiek guys.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Troll?

The match-up is close enough that people debate it to anywhere between 55-45 to 65-55, it's not a hard counter.


As far as fox.

Ha ha. Even, surely you jest.



Nobody knows how to play ICs? I DO!

grab-> ftilt and grab attack ->ftilt and grab attack->ftilt and grab attack->... some smash attack.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Quiet you.

 

[wool]

Smoke and smash, it looks like you're getting off to a great start with the community.

I would advise making a new account. Now. And be a bit nicer.

These guys know a **** load more than you do.

 

[keeper]

Pichu is top tier if you learn how to SHDL with him.

 

[Strong Badam]

i can shine -> knee with Pichu

 

[Pink Reaper]

Kirby is mid tier if you can SHDL with him. Which is to say, if you take Falco's powers Kirby's abilities in the match up drastically increase. It's just too bad that it's so difficult to get a hold of them and even then Falco is still a far better character. Still, Kirby with Falco's Lasers is still THE best in terms of ranged control, so if you're skilled enough to keep falco away you can gain a serious upper hand.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Smoke and smash, it looks like you're getting off to a great start with the community.

I would advise making a new account. Now. And be a bit nicer.

These guys know a **** load more than you do.

Yes, because my social status in a geek community means so much to me. I should be striving to impress you guys, and here I am ****ing everything up.

I enjoy this ****, and if you took your head out of your *** you'd enjoy it too.

And by the way, I know more about this game than 90% of the community. I guarentee this.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Sheik has the advantage over marth but the odds you guys are throwing out there are the ones you were saying are unwinnable and dont matter if its a fox vs a low tier etc.

I think thats its closer to even if marth can space correctly. Just focus on not putting yourself in a bad position. Id say more 40-60

 

[unknown522]

marth v sheik is not that bad. It's at worst 6-4. Probably 65-35 for sheik. Marth's dash dance + CC are ******** in that matchup. It forces sheik to play defensive.

more on that later.