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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Tero.

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I don't feel like writing much about the Match-Ups now (actually I don't have the time to write much now), but I'll do sometime in near future.

I also braught this topic into the Back Room, so there is a small chance we make something official out of it. (Who knows? I don't :/)

Oh and I really like the way people handle this, everyone is up for debates which is good, because I kinda came in here saying "what the **** is this this is wrong" and people still kept cool.

Thanks Sveet btw :)
 

-ACE-

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if falco plays as safe as puff, falco should win. the matchup should probably be falco lasering and doing short combos while puff just tries to push falco off the stage for a gimp.
Playing safe against Puff is easier said than done. Puff's aerial mobility makes Falco's laser control and combo game less effective, and makes proper spacing more difficult to achieve (it's not easy to keep a safe distance from Puff, especially on smaller stages). This makes the approach more important, and this is an area where Puff excels due to (once again) his aerial mobility (Puff is great for mindgames and constantly applying pressure) and the priority/duration of the hitboxes of his aerials. Once Puff gets in, he has lots of combo options against Falco just like any other fastfaller, and one of the best combo finishers in the game. Not to mention as soon as Falco is offstage he's dead; the same can never be said for Puff.

Oh and about uthrow rest. I'm fully aware that it's usually easy to DI out and escape, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happens at high levels of play. People slip up sometimes.

I think Hbox would beat Mango's Falco. Yeah I said it.

Just my 2 cents.
 

unknown522

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i just feel like everything puff can do to falcon

combo / edgeguard / make it hard for falcon 2 get in


all falcon needs 2 do in my eyes is dash dance for single hits

1 u air .. i bair .. 1 u air .. then dash dance and wait for that grab

that knee hits mad hard and kills puff at gay percents

also falcon can live puffs aerials mad long if u dont rest him or edgeguard him
I understand.

But edgeguarding falcon is easy though.

Jigglypuff - Fox 35:65
Jigglypuff - Sheik 40:60
Jigglypuff - Marth 40:60
Jigglypuff - Falco 50:50/45:55
Jigglypuff - Falcon 50:50/45:55
Jigglypuff - Peach 50:50/55:45

I don't claim this to be 100% true, but it is definitly more accurate than the current ratios.
noted
 

Divinokage

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LOL those Jigglypuff ratios are horrible.
Mango stop beeing so good, people actually think Jigglypuff is a good character.

Puff - Sheik 55:45? HAHA no ****ing way, are you kidding me?
Puff - Fox 35:65? Yeah that's about right.
Puff - Marth 40:60? That's ok I guess.
Puff - Falco 60:40? Are you crazy? LOL.
Puff - Falcon 55:45? More about even or 45:55
Puff - Peach 60:40? Nope.

Oh man, srsly.
Mango is significantly better than most people which is why perhaps the Jiggs matchups are overrated. There's also Hbox and Darc which are extremely good obviously. But you know I think any other Jiggs are going to get crushed by certain matchups most likely.

I don't know how everyone is basing their matchups off of but you (as in general everyone) gotta be realistic. I mean if a Fox plays as gay as the Jiggs, he clearly has the stage advantage because he's super quick and then one upair or upsmash Jiggs dies at like 70-80 lol.
 

unknown522

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Mango is significantly better than most people which is why perhaps the Jiggs matchups are overrated. There's also Hbox and Darc which are extremely good obviously. But you know I think any other Jiggs are going to get crushed by certain matchups most likely.

I don't know how everyone is basing their matchups off of but you (as in general everyone) gotta be realistic. I mean if a Fox plays as gay as the Jiggs, he clearly has the stage advantage because he's super quick and then one upair or upsmash Jiggs dies at like 70-80 lol.
quoting this.
 

Stev

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If a disciplined fox player decides to laser camp the crap out of jiggs, then like Kage said, 1 u-smash, uair = stock. It's just that we're not used to playing melee so campy with fast characters and it's boring as hell to do. So people don't usually do it.
 

Divinokage

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If a disciplined fox player decides to laser camp the crap out of jiggs, then like Kage said, 1 u-smash, uair = stock. It's just that we're not used to playing melee so campy with fast characters and it's boring as hell to do. So people don't usually do it.
With Fox you have to play that match up like Brawl, or risk getting *****. lol. At least with Ganon, I'm able to out space Jiggs so I can attack him lol.
 

LLDL

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Falco has an advantage over every character, it jsut depends on the player.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Playing safe against Puff is easier said than done. Puff's aerial mobility makes Falco's laser control and combo game less effective, and makes proper spacing more difficult to achieve (it's not easy to keep a safe distance from Puff, especially on smaller stages). This makes the approach more important, and this is an area where Puff excels due to (once again) his aerial mobility (Puff is great for mindgames and constantly applying pressure) and the priority/duration of the hitboxes of his aerials. Once Puff gets in, he has lots of combo options against Falco just like any other fastfaller, and one of the best combo finishers in the game. Not to mention as soon as Falco is offstage he's dead; the same can never be said for Puff.

Oh and about uthrow rest. I'm fully aware that it's usually easy to DI out and escape, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happens at high levels of play. People slip up sometimes.

I think Hbox would beat Mango's Falco. Yeah I said it.

Just my 2 cents.
character difficulty =/= character disadvantage. when talking about the metagame you must assume consistant tech skill/knows how to space effectively.

falco should be camping. lots of good players will laser but go on the aggressive side when in close. falco can out space and out prioritize puff if he covers his options.

not true, falco has a few decent options of recovery. if he can get the edge with his jump, he is safe. if he can go high he is about 50/50 living depending on if he gets read.

thats a player mistake. it happens from time to time, but it also happens from time to time that a puff gets spiked at 50% at the edge.
 

Strong Badam

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i guess if you would want to not factor uthrow rest in, you couldn't factor upthrow upair in, either, as that can be DI'd. i've also smash DI's an uptilt as Sheik to avoid a rest before.... that doesn't really make utilt rest any less important in match-ups.
 

-ACE-

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character difficulty =/= character disadvantage. when talking about the metagame you must assume consistant tech skill/knows how to space effectively.
I never said that character difficulty equates to character disadvantage. However, I believe that when all of the points I mentioned are taken into account (as well as Falco's strong points and weaknesses), Puff is left with the upper hand, slightly. It's just my opinion.

falco should be camping. lots of good players will laser but go on the aggressive side when in close. falco can out space and out prioritize puff if he covers his options.
Camping Puff is not easy. He gets around lasers quite well and can close the gap between him and his opponent very quickly. Once he is in close it's usually not hard to bait an approach and punish accordingly.

not true, falco has a few decent options of recovery. if he can get the edge with his jump, he is safe. if he can go high he is about 50/50 living depending on if he gets read.
Ok, maybe I oversimplified that slightly, but it's not that hard to gimp Falco. Falco doesn't always have the option of sweetspotting the edge with his double jump. If Falco goes high it's pretty easy to read him, imo (ex: lead him to believe that going for the ledge is a safe option, and wait just long enough so that he's left with only one option, but you still have time to punish), and as long as you don't overdo it, you should have time to get back and punish his landing lag (if he doesn't go for the ledge) with a rest, smash attack, or grab.

thats a player mistake. it happens from time to time, but it also happens from time to time that a puff gets spiked at 50% at the edge.
Of course it is a player mistake. It's also a player mistake that almost always results in a lost stock. You're right about the spike, but it's not always that easy to pull off.
 

KirbyKaze

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Mango is significantly better than most people which is why perhaps the Jiggs matchups are overrated. There's also Hbox and Darc which are extremely good obviously. But you know I think any other Jiggs are going to get crushed by certain matchups most likely.
This is largely unsupported. Raistilin (however you spell it) got 9th at Genesis.

I don't know how everyone is basing their matchups off of but you (as in general everyone) gotta be realistic. I mean if a Fox plays as gay as the Jiggs, he clearly has the stage advantage because he's super quick and then one upair or upsmash Jiggs dies at like 70-80 lol.
We covered this. We made Fox Puff largely in Fox's favour.

In fact, I don't know why Tero included updated Fox Puff or Fox Marth when listing mistakes in the chart because they're the same numbers on the chart.

My question would be, though, why we're not allowed to do the same thing about Ganon without being screamed at by the entire Ganon board. Sheik, for instance, instant-deaths him off grab. She outcamps him with her projectile and her moves are all faster than his. Her ground speed is also a lot better. Her duck beats his entire ground suite minus low F-tilt, D-tilt, and down+B (notably, his grab and Jab). Somehow, this matchup is often referred to at 55/45 or 60/40 or (don't laugh, I've seen this one) almost even on the Ganon boards or here, when discussing it.

We're lead to believe that his chain grab equalizes the matchup to a large degree, but then in practice Ganon gets half as many grabs (or fewer).

It's not like Ganons go undefeated against Sheiks or anything, either.

Ganon is a relatively minor example. I've had people saying that Pichu vs Sheik is doable, especially at high level.

I don't know. It seems like we're only allowed to take gayness into consideration when discussing the floaties, which doesn't feel accurate or right.
 

Dark Hart

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hmm... 2 of the best players in the world use Jigglypuff. One of the best players on the East Coast uses Jigglypuff. Mango mains puff... and beats everyone. HBox is getting pretty close. We've seen top level Fox's, Falco's, Peach's, Falcon's, Sheik's and Marth's all play against this "bad character", and said character which apparently isn't that good keeps winning... but Purin is still not that good right? The whole world just hasn't been playing against her correctly for the past year and a half, right? Yea that must be it...
Re-posting
 

Strong Badam

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I think the problem with this is that a lot of people are going to take their personal experience as a large factor for this stuff. People just don't play ridiculously gay in real matches. It's difficult for people to realize that this match-up chart has ratios for match-ups when both players are doing whatever it takes to win. Like yeah I'm sure Gimpyfish's Bowser is pretty **** but then again most of his opponents didn't know the match-up well at all and didn't camp him hardcore either.

tl;dr It doesn't make sense to look at tournament results to justify a character match-up ratio, because 1. that's stupid and 2. player skill is far more important than match-up advantage in competitive play, realistically speaking of course (and by that I mean like 6-10 characters that are tournament viable).
 

adumbrodeus

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hmm... 2 of the best players in the world use Jigglypuff. One of the best players on the East Coast uses Jigglypuff. Mango mains puff... and beats everyone. HBox is getting pretty close. We've seen top level Fox's, Falco's, Peach's, Falcon's, Sheik's and Marth's all play against this "bad character", and said character which apparently isn't that good keeps winning... but Purin is still not that good right? The whole world just hasn't been playing against her correctly for the past year and a half, right? Yea that must be it...
Mango mains falco... Puff is his secondary.
 

Strong Badam

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so is that why he went all puff against armada? because puff ISN'T his best character?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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no he started with puff. i would say you are right that he mains falco though. i'm pretty sure mango realizes falco is a lot better than puff. he **** talks about his puff without giving lots of people experience against it, thats why more people have trouble against it. and he uses rest traps to get inside your head and force lots of errors while spacing as much as puff allows. his falco is so much more efficient than his puff, to say the least.
 

adumbrodeus

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no he started with puff. i would say you are right that he mains falco though. i'm pretty sure mango realizes falco is a lot better than puff. he **** talks about his puff without giving lots of people experience against it, thats why more people have trouble against it. and he uses rest traps to get inside your head and force lots of errors while spacing as much as puff allows. his falco is so much more efficient than his puff, to say the least.
I meant pretty much all Falco,

Look at the first set in winners finals, he uses falco up until the middle of grand finals set 1, then the crowd convinces him to use puff.



I feel silly. I thought it was because his Falco got 3-stocked first game.
First match was puff (in winner's finals), he then went falco up until mid grand finals.
 

Strong Badam

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clearly mango decided that he had a better chance of winning in Grand Finals by using Puff. why else would he go all puff against Hbox, other than to bore everyone?
 

Blatt Blvd

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i watched hungrybox go from losing to ness players(crying about it to the tourney host and actually getting the win) to beating M2k and possibly being the 2nd best in the nation right now.

and i still dont believe the hype.

jiggs is a really good character.

like, same tier as falco good.
 

unknown522

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This is largely unsupported. Raistilin (however you spell it) got 9th at Genesis.


We covered this. We made Fox Puff largely in Fox's favour.

In fact, I don't know why Tero included updated Fox Puff or Fox Marth when listing mistakes in the chart because they're the same numbers on the chart.

My question would be, though, why we're not allowed to do the same thing about Ganon without being screamed at by the entire Ganon board. Sheik, for instance, instant-deaths him off grab. She outcamps him with her projectile and her moves are all faster than his. Her ground speed is also a lot better. Her duck beats his entire ground suite minus low F-tilt, D-tilt, and down+B (notably, his grab and Jab). Somehow, this matchup is often referred to at 55/45 or 60/40 or (don't laugh, I've seen this one) almost even on the Ganon boards or here, when discussing it.

We're lead to believe that his chain grab equalizes the matchup to a large degree, but then in practice Ganon gets half as many grabs (or fewer).

It's not like Ganons go undefeated against Sheiks or anything, either.

Ganon is a relatively minor example. I've had people saying that Pichu vs Sheik is doable, especially at high level.

I don't know. It seems like we're only allowed to take gayness into consideration when discussing the floaties, which doesn't feel accurate or right.
Thank you!
 

Blatt Blvd

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lol yeah.

imo falco is in a tier all his own(under fox,shiek, marth, but above peach).

like, not as good as fox,shiek, falco, but not as bad as peach(who is not bad)

and i really believe that's where he(jiggs) should be.

under falco.

also, jiggs is a dude.
 

Dorsey

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I agree, Dorsey. You said "current metagame" but didn't elaborate further, so people were jumping down your throat for having Scar syndrome. I thought it was worth going into more detail. Why didn't you?
Waste of time. Anyway I'm not even trying to talk up jiggs like she's the best character or something. IMO I just thought it was a little ridiculous suggesting that she 'wasn't that good' or whatever. Jiggs owns.
 

Blatt Blvd

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lol, i dont think ANYONE thinks Jiggs is bad.

shes just not as good as marth, fox, and shiek

people are just freaking out that there is another character that has a serious shot at doing damage in the bracket.

so there's gonna be people who think jiggs is too good OMGWTF(most likely the people who have experienced jiggs at this level).

nothing new
 

adumbrodeus

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clearly mango decided that he had a better chance of winning in Grand Finals by using Puff. why else would he go all puff against Hbox, other than to bore everyone?
Obviously people want the puff... Puff may be boring to watch, but people like seeing her win, again, realize that it's sort of his trump card, he used it against Armada first match and lost, so that would generally mean he'd revert to his less gimmicky character, the one that he's better at. Falco.
 

Blatt Blvd

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then he switched back to jiggs and armada ended up switching to fox cause he couldnt handle mango's "gimmicky" puff.

good logic ambrodoosh
 

adumbrodeus

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then he switched back to jiggs and armada ended up switching to fox cause he couldnt handle mango's "gimmicky" puff.

good logic ambrodoosh
No, the crowd got to armada.

He would've lost if mango stuck with falco imo.


Yes, crowds do have an effect, that's why sports teams are so big on cheerleaders and dedicated fans (not talking about for-profit teams here), because psychology has proven that they do in fact have an effect on competitor's mental state. Armada and Mango were close enough in skill level for that to be a tipping point.
 

MaNg0

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1. i went puff on hbox because i didnt feel like dealing with his gayness with ne of my other characters with so much on the line

2. if the crowd would have cheered against me i would have *****.. i love proving people wrong .. so it gets me more hype 2 win .. like every ec tourney ive won


3. my falco would destroy hbox... wouldnt approach for ****

laser laser laser laser laser laser laser laser

and lasers turn people around... good luck bairing me ^_^

ehh probably wouldnt ****... he would just up throw rest me a bunch

LOL


and uhhh yeah

i love my falco <3
 
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