I lol'd really hard at this one and also @ Virgy's Sora quote xD
Watch out Kage, We know how to fight ganon now! We are not afraid of you!!!!! xDDDDDD
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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]
- Thread starter worldjem7
- Start date
I lol'd really hard at this one and also @ Virgy's Sora quote xD
Watch out Kage, We know how to fight ganon now! We are not afraid of you!!!!! xDDDDDD
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Oh ****!!! I'm scared! *Runs*
I loled too, pretty sure most of EC US knows how to fight Ganon honestly. =P
Fortress | Sveet
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removed by me for feeding the troll
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Why would you even be on the ground in the first place? Did he dair you in the air? Whatever. So you're lying there on the ground. Doing nothing. What do you do if he just waits? If you get up he can most likely grab you, jab you, wizard kick you, dair you, or fair you just based on reaction. If you roll away you get grabbed or fair'd from reaction. If you roll toward him he can bair or dair you, again on reaction. If you get up attack, you get shield-grabbed. We can play Super Theory Bros. all over the place, but the easiest way to settle this is for you to MM Kage at Pound 4 if you don't meet in pools or bracket (if you and Kage both make it that far) and have it recorded.Can people actually read posts instead of assuming idiocy? I never said anything about reacting to a tech cahse or read, everything I said was about timing. You lie on the ground and you wait for Ganon to do something, contratry to the stupidity you just posted you are the one reacting to him, not the other way around. Kage may very well be a better player than me, but I'm certain I can beat him because as I said, I **** Ganons. However Kage is a it overrated because of his palcement at rom1; KDJ has been retired for over, Azen had been retired over 6 months and Jman is vastly overrated. Kage placing top 4 in his country means nothing. Since 2007 I have always placed top 2 in my country, please don't be retardeed and assume that because you haven't heard of me it means I haven't accomplished anything. You haven't herd of me because you are the sterotypical ignorant american smasher who knows nothing of the Smash scene outside of developed countries.
What country are you even from? Why does Kage placing top 4, most of which is top 2, at every tourney he goes to in Canada (a country that has 34 million people, and has a decent smash scene) mean nothing, while you placing top 2 in a country you have yet to disclose (and likely has a smaller population and a less organized smash scene for an NTSC country if we haven't heard of it) does? Serious question.
People would probably be more apt to argue any of your points if you wouldn't constantly attempt to insult their intelligence (seriously, it's at least 20-30% of your posts).
....
Jman and Cactuar use Fox. One of the most popular and most used characters. Chu Dat uses Ice Climbers. A very unpopular character whom only 3 or 4 players use and place well with. Chu Dat's opportunity for experience against Fox players is nearly infinitely higher than that of Jman or Cactuar's opportunity for experience against Ice Climber's players.
This chart isn't about "the best [character 1] vs. the best [character 2], what's the ratio," because again that would be influenced by character popularity, a player's opportunity to gain experience in the match-up, and, most importantly of all, player skill. For example (and IMO), Mango has a better Puff than Mew2King has a Marth or Fox, or Armada has a Peach. His player skill skews the data that can be extracted about the match-ups from his results. He or any other player doing well against a character doesn't mean that Jigglypuff's match-up against that character isn't bad. It simply means that Mango or other Jigglypuff players are very good at the match-up, and can overcome the match-up disadvantage because player skill players a much larger part in high level play than match-ups do.
In addition, tournament results/matches cannot always be assessed for match-up data. This is because many players do not want or enjoy playing "gay," and would rather play in a fashion that isn't exactly the best, due to personal choice. For example, I don't think Chu wobbles, despite the fact that it's a good technique and is infinitely better than any other option IC's has in a situation that IC's can wobble (in singles, at least). I haven't seen the matches of Chu vs. Jman/Cactuar (I don't even know if they were recorded), but I'm willing to bet that neither of them took advantage of the strategy that Europhoria described.
Also, a 6-4 match-up isn't very bad at all. It's a disadvantage, but not that large of one. Chu Dat has had years of experience against top level foxes (PC Chris, Mew2King, Chillen, etc.), while the only experience Jman or Cactuar can really get against a top level IC's is Chu Dat and, to an extent, Wobbles. Wobbles doesn't travel to the EC all too often as far as I know.
Top level [character 1]'s doing badly against top level [character 2]'s doesn't mean that [character 2] has a good match-up against [character 1], it means that top level [character 1]'s do badly against top level [character 2]'s for some reason or another. You seem to be misinterpreting the point of the match-up chart in general, really.
Please, VBM, actually read this post & attempt to argue against its points, rather than simply saying "you're an ignorant american and you missed my point [which is probably because I'm bad at making a point, but... that's besides the point!!!] so you're dumb," and not addressing most of them. But you probably won't anyway.
lordvaati
Smash Master
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Ugh, no you're good. It's not that you have a lack of match up knowledge, you just get match up ***** on EC because they know how to fight Ganon and gay him insanely. But the americans have no Ganon match up knowledge so it gives you a huge edge.
My Fox vs. ICs thing is pretty theory craft heavy I guess. The only time I saw 2 players of close to equal skill in that scenario was Zhu v. Wobbles and it worked out really well lol The ICs would have to camp Fox really hard to avoid getting ***** by it IMO and ...... lol camping a fox
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Guys, I brought Chu to one stock with peach in the second match of a tourney set once, so he wobbled me.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Falcon vs Luigi should be 6-4, that was already discussed quite a while ago.
Also, if you're including counterpicks instead of just neutrals, Fox vs Jiggs should probably be 6-4 (Jiggs has Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64, Brinstar, Dream Land, somewhat Jungle Japes, though not as much as the others).
Also, if you're including counterpicks instead of just neutrals, Fox vs Jiggs should probably be 6-4 (Jiggs has Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64, Brinstar, Dream Land, somewhat Jungle Japes, though not as much as the others).
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I shoulda gone to canada this weekend lol.
@everyone-if anyone else attempts to troll lets all agree to just ignore that person and if we feel obligated to feed the troll post it in their profile or in a pm. Theres no way they can continue disrupting without gettin banned.
As far as ganon v pika, I dont think that the gdorfs ability to move with wavelanding is as important in the matchup except vs edgeguarding. But cant ganon just downthrow to bair or regrab as well?
I see it really hard to him to approach because pika is alot smaller than most character and can downsmash or sidestep downsmash (crouch under jab?)
Edit: I thought I was caught up but I was still a page behind because of all the garbo-sorry if my post seems irrelevant.
@everyone-if anyone else attempts to troll lets all agree to just ignore that person and if we feel obligated to feed the troll post it in their profile or in a pm. Theres no way they can continue disrupting without gettin banned.
As far as ganon v pika, I dont think that the gdorfs ability to move with wavelanding is as important in the matchup except vs edgeguarding. But cant ganon just downthrow to bair or regrab as well?
I see it really hard to him to approach because pika is alot smaller than most character and can downsmash or sidestep downsmash (crouch under jab?)
Edit: I thought I was caught up but I was still a page behind because of all the garbo-sorry if my post seems irrelevant.
idea
Smash Master
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Shine doesn't gimp from the safe position because he can't combo ICs from shine, and it doesn't push them off the edge. It might put Fox in an advantageous position, but it's not a kill.
You're making the assumption that Fox automatically gets to shine them whenever he wants. I'm saying that, from personal experience vs plenty of good foxes, he does not have an easier time landing the hit (that determines the stock) than the ICs do.
The dd scenario is just a game of r/p/s. ICs have plenty of safe options if they don't approach; b-air is hardly punishable. Fox's only real option is to beat it from above, and from there ICs can dash away (he would have to overshoot) or they can sh u-air (which he would have to read or predict). If the Fox is forcing the ICs to approach, they can jab/whatever into his dd range, they can u-air predicting the jump, or they can fake an approach and bait the response. Whoever makes the better read potentially takes a stock, Fox isn't guaranteed anything in this situation.
Also, ICs don't have to commit to fulljump u-air. Sh u-air goes through the lower platforms (so it's unpunishable on his shield) and makes it pretty difficult for Fox to approach from the platforms.
I don't think that Chu beating Jman necessarily represents the match-up well, clearly Chu has more match-up experience, but I'm interested in which Foxes 'gay his character really hard'. It seems like he's never gone worse than even with any Fox player.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
If Fox shoots you then jumps onto platforms if you try to approach it'll go badly. He can CC your b-air into a d-tilt if we're really gonna use a slow obvious approach like that as a viable option to shut down his platform game. If you run under his platform he can run off the side and space a b-air/whatever and then just repeat until you mess up and you get hit or Nana dies. He could also just run to the top platform and run away and shoot you some more. Or he could take the real safe option where if you run under the platform he could just jump and then come down beside you and punish (depending on what you do) or run away and be safe, because the ICs are terrible like that.
These approaches where you use a good selection of aerials to predict and "mindgame him" to shut him down are really big gambles, if you mess up you die... if you succeed you get 13-26% damage from the aerials and Fox runs away. Eventually you'll make the wrong choice. To take a stock against the camping with this style of "using different aerials to stop platform camping" it's like you have to win 4-5 coin flips in a row, EVERY stock because there are a few common scenarios and you have to guess right each time or you/nana die. It's like a less extreme version of trying to approach Jiggs with Marth. But in this case he'll force you to approach so enjoy
To beat Fox coming from above with like full hop whatever to space over your short hop move you have to use your double and super predict it. >_> See above paragraph for how viable I feel this is
ICs do not take a stock from a single hit unless they wobble. Nana has to be alive and in sync which basically requires you to get a clean grab out of a shield WD or something (jabbing could get you shined, same with d-air and so on). But then on top of that the Fox has to be reasonably above 40% and go comatose and not mash; Or otherwise DI into some kind of long extended death combo that they could DI out of. This is much more situational and hard to set up then "shine at any percent"
Because Nana shields 6 frames (or more?) slower the Popo you're very likely to catch her with something. Anything >_> A drill shine, a shine from platform, b-air off platform, jumping above etc. The shine that follows will either separate them killing Nana or push them both back either to the ledge or off it. If they don't go right to the edge (I guess if they get shined in the middle of DL64 or PS) they're still in stun and the Fox can continue to chase.
R/P/S is kind of a good analogy of the ICs options against Fox except Fox's Rock, Paper and Scissors are wired to a Nuke switch and if they win they trigger it. You could guess right and chip a way a bit, or you could guess wrong and get blown up
wow all this talk 4 nothing i beat chu 2 times he beat me 2 times... we r both very good players.. he just played better that day
when u reach the lvl that me and chu r on sometimes all that really matters is who's playing better that day
when u reach the lvl that me and chu r on sometimes all that really matters is who's playing better that day
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I kinda agree with that jman. I think the ICs can win, it's just a lot harder for them. Hence the "I think ICs lose the match up"
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I don't really understand your point here. I was using the b-air example because you made it sound like if Fox dd camps under a platform, ICs are going to commit to something punishable. Fox is never going to run in and cc a b-air, especially not into d-tilt. x.x
You're underestimating ICs' capitalization from a clean hit. B-air leads into dash attack at low %, tech chase at mid, and edgeguard at high. Dash attack leads into grab or plenty of other combo options. Sh u-air leads into grab, dash attack, or d-smash. ICs punishment game is definitely on par with Fox's. I'm not suggesting that they slowly chip away with aerials, I'm suggesting that they use aerials to create the opening that leads to the grab or combo that ends the stock.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I know, outside of dash attack things like buffer into roll, DI-ing out, etc. also combat that well. You can lead into more hits but it's hard to lead into a grab. I don't see many clean grabs or like move to grab from ICs. It's usually a shield grab or a tech chase or something. Well... clean synced grabs. A lot of times to get the grab Nana gets hit
Oh I thought you meant like turning around and going after him with b-air when he hops onto a platform as you approach. I don't mean going after his DD game with b-air spam lol. ICs will eventually have to commit to something punishable, he can just shoot at you lol. I'm pretty sure the d-tilt would reach if they try and like full hop b-air while he's on a platform to like hit him/stop him hitting you though (probably while he's on the ground too unless you did the b-air at the end of your jump and buffered shield I guess). He can CC like Sheik's tilts at full distance to it and some other crap. This is random obscure knowledge that doesn't come up much lol
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
i just pick green greens and win w/ fox
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
There was a roughly year-long period where I would ban Green Greens against every Fox I played regardless of whether the player would CP it or not.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Fox mains REALLY need to cp Green Greens more. I don't think most people realize how amazingly small that stage is and how gay it is for some characters.
Lovage
Smash Hero
green greens is stupid i hope that stage and jungle japes stay banned at most tournaments
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
lol...no
there are too many huge stages in the game and tall stages too, and like the only small stage is yoshi's story. green greens is legit
there are too many huge stages in the game and tall stages too, and like the only small stage is yoshi's story. green greens is legit
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
green greens and jungle japes are what make me not pick IC's against other IC's.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
green green and japes > mute city and brinstar
fact.
fact.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
mute city is gay
brinstar is gay
dream land is gay
jigglypuff is broken
etc.
brinstar is gay
dream land is gay
jigglypuff is broken
etc.
joeplicate
Smash Master
i think with u that assuming idiocy is the way to go
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
we are just suppose to ignore him now, unless he says something relevant
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
fixed .
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
You're a Fox player, what are you complaining about?
My favourite Cps are Corneria/Brinstar. Corneria is likely to be banned though. Its so gay.
lol
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Me and Ryan were talking about this on the way home from Charles'
We both kinda agreed that the only legal CP stages should be Brinstar, Mute, Corneria and Rainbow Cruise. Ban DK 64/Jungle Japes at least please >_>
We both kinda agreed that the only legal CP stages should be Brinstar, Mute, Corneria and Rainbow Cruise. Ban DK 64/Jungle Japes at least please >_>
NES n00b
Smash Master
Why does DK64 need to be ESPECIALLY banned of all stages?
Europhoria
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
Are you watching the matches there? Can you imagine a Fox or Falco decided they wanted to play keep away with those platforms. It's the same with Jungles Japes just using more laser and hopping on platforms for free moves. It'd be the same deal, like 6 minutes in and each player has maybe lost 1 stock >_> if we're so lucky
Are you watching the matches there? Can you imagine a Fox or Falco decided they wanted to play keep away with those platforms. It's the same with Jungles Japes just using more laser and hopping on platforms for free moves. It'd be the same deal, like 6 minutes in and each player has maybe lost 1 stock >_> if we're so lucky
RestInPeace
Smash Ace
Imagine Peach/Jiggs team doing that.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
>_>
Jungle Japes is really gay. Mike can you find a match of a character super camping on JJ? I just want to see if it happens enough in tourny to warrant a ban. Honestly I haven't seen it picked much.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Rockcrock was not agressive enough i think... Pink Shinobi would not be able to do **** like that on me. Also Fox and Falco are not super great on DK 64 either.
idea
Smash Master
umm...that one tournament with Bum, i think it was MLG long island, he had a 6-minute match vs. chu there. someone else might have taken him there too. that's a bad example, though, cause chu is legit and ICs need all they can get =P
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_EA7PQR55Q&feature=related)
my thought process: "hmm...what about a campy fox..."
" No videos found for “jman fox jungle japes” "
" No videos found for “teh spamerer fox jungle japes” "
i guess it remains unexploited.
edit: guys, if you're going to have internet shouting matches, can you please at least contain them to one place? the comments on that video sound like the last few pages here <_< even some of the same people. man.
(also that place shouldn't be here; there are social threads and debate threads)
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Bernard:
Not many people CP Japes, but I mean I think anyone can imagine what would happen. This isn't like reacting to gay ****, more wanting to ban it as a preventive thing. I just don't wanna see some bull**** where they shoot, run when you approach, and shoot some more like with PKM vs. Falcomist where the match could potentially go 8 minutes without a stock loss. Or we could just claim the clap trap is random luck b/s and ban it for that as well.
1 of the only Japes vids I can think of offhand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59xlIcnBXks
Kage, you get camped hard and ***** for it; lots of people do that **** to you and win. Somehow I feel you wouldn't be successful against Pink Shinobi in that scenario
See Kirbykaze, DR. Peepee, etc.
More DK64 bull****:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTkONl4IPTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI (or do you wanna tell me Mango is bad at anti camping too?)
Just because Fox/Falco don't CP there every time doesn't mean it's not amazing for them. They're really fast and can play super gay with lasers while keeping themselves safe. They can do like the same stuff Jman was doing in this match on a different stage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xncyjuTM7uU
Those 2 are pretty gay stages. It promotes camping, which isn't necessarily bad. But the camping is strong to the point where it's like an auto win because of how the stages are arranged for characters to move and avoid everything. Don't forget that camping isn't just about damage racking, it's about forcing your opponent to commit to something and on those stages it's so hard to hit people in scenarios like those that they have to commit to something terrible and they'll get beat hard for it
Not many people CP Japes, but I mean I think anyone can imagine what would happen. This isn't like reacting to gay ****, more wanting to ban it as a preventive thing. I just don't wanna see some bull**** where they shoot, run when you approach, and shoot some more like with PKM vs. Falcomist where the match could potentially go 8 minutes without a stock loss. Or we could just claim the clap trap is random luck b/s and ban it for that as well.
1 of the only Japes vids I can think of offhand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59xlIcnBXks
Kage, you get camped hard and ***** for it; lots of people do that **** to you and win. Somehow I feel you wouldn't be successful against Pink Shinobi in that scenario
See Kirbykaze, DR. Peepee, etc.
More DK64 bull****:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTkONl4IPTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI (or do you wanna tell me Mango is bad at anti camping too?)
Just because Fox/Falco don't CP there every time doesn't mean it's not amazing for them. They're really fast and can play super gay with lasers while keeping themselves safe. They can do like the same stuff Jman was doing in this match on a different stage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xncyjuTM7uU
Those 2 are pretty gay stages. It promotes camping, which isn't necessarily bad. But the camping is strong to the point where it's like an auto win because of how the stages are arranged for characters to move and avoid everything. Don't forget that camping isn't just about damage racking, it's about forcing your opponent to commit to something and on those stages it's so hard to hit people in scenarios like those that they have to commit to something terrible and they'll get beat hard for it
RestInPeace
Smash Ace
Just for clarity: why are we calling Kongo Jungle DK64?
it's a dk stage. It was in 64. It is shorter
N64
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N5TRcR3ZtQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KP-TXBpsmw
it just seems more Pink Shinobi's style. If you pick a slow character against anyone with more mobility than you and the ability to stall, then plenty of stages offer ability to just be avoided.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I know it's his style. But because of the top platforms on DK64 approaching that kind of camping is really brutal.
I mean Fox/Falco are the obvious ones for camping those platforms and playing keep away. Because there are so many options for running away/shooting it's amazing on the stage. But if it was like Sheik v. Link/Marth/other character with slow aerial (or at least slower then hers) movement I can see the same problems coming up.
On a stage like Dreamland or whatever this isn't as bad because there's only the 1 top platform, while it's still obviously terrible for some match ups it's not like Jiggs/Peach, Fox/Slow Character on DK64 where even if the Jiggs is better then Peach by a gross margin he still loses simply because it's impossible to catch the camper with the stage make up. The method of approaching isn't as terribly obvious, less options for camping, eventually the Peach/whatever is moved to a low side platform on dl64 for example and is vulnerable even if only for that moment and something can be done.
I mean Fox/Falco are the obvious ones for camping those platforms and playing keep away. Because there are so many options for running away/shooting it's amazing on the stage. But if it was like Sheik v. Link/Marth/other character with slow aerial (or at least slower then hers) movement I can see the same problems coming up.
On a stage like Dreamland or whatever this isn't as bad because there's only the 1 top platform, while it's still obviously terrible for some match ups it's not like Jiggs/Peach, Fox/Slow Character on DK64 where even if the Jiggs is better then Peach by a gross margin he still loses simply because it's impossible to catch the camper with the stage make up. The method of approaching isn't as terribly obvious, less options for camping, eventually the Peach/whatever is moved to a low side platform on dl64 for example and is vulnerable even if only for that moment and something can be done.