Midwest Circuit East 2: October - June Official Info and Announcements

[Inui]

Wow, this is awful.

Idk why Overswarm wastes his intelligence by being so crazy and going against the grain so much.

 

[Overswarm]

So are the custom stages gonna be offically added to the list of cp's? Or is it just for this series?

Just for this series. Everyone's wanted to test out custom stages since Brawl was released, but no TOs I've ever talked to have ever been able to do it for a "real" tournament. I tried holding small side tournaments and had a few successful ones, but results were fairly typical; those that played on the stages before did well, those that didn't had a lot of fun but felt like fish out of water, and the results looked similar to the actual tournaments results.

Since the custom stage tournaments didn't change the results around in any horrible ways, we found that custom stages actually were viable when created properly, at least at first. After a year of testing multiple stages, I now have 2 starters and a CP. It's a very unconventional addition to tournaments, but a circuit is the best way to test how people react to the stages over a long period of time as well as find out how the stages have an affect on the placings in tournament.

While I don't expect any crazy upsets, the new stages each have their own quirks. The starter list will resemble Melee's starter list more than Brawl's, as all of Brawl's stages have roughly similar layouts (like main platform length) and generally, if your character excels on one of the starters they excel on all of them with very few changes in comparison to the CPs.

Equity was created to promote aggression. There will be lots of off stage fighting, yet the moving platforms allow for multiple modes of recovery. Camping is not a possibility on this stage no matter how hard you try, so aggressive characters that are in your face all the time will do well on this stage. Those that have trouble getting KOs from the stage will have more opportunities to get earlier KOs by attacking off stage or via attacking your opponent if they land on the platform when it is at its farthest.

Libra was created as an FD replacement, and acts most like the other starters. There's more room to move, planking is near impossible, the "saftey" platform can stop you from getting grabbed momentarily but makes you vulnerable, and there's plenty of room to move around here.

Abyss is the most unique and is a CP as such.... you'd have to play that one to have it make sense to you.

Also, while custom stages may be worth a try, trying them for the first time in a regional circuit is kind of ********.

It's not the first time. They've been played for a year. A regional circuit is the only way to get consistent data.

 

[kailo34ce]

I'd be glad to host an event in February or March at my venue, OS. I'd do championships too, if you want.
Just let me know when you need me, and I'll work on it.

lol ive never posted in mw forums but i saw this post by the homo sbrb guy and i thought it was funny how he thought he was cool and made his font a dif color along with his avatar.

way to be cool.

also the cutsom stages are cool.


the game isnt a solid competitive game,it needs to be greatly altered.thanks for attempting something mw

 

[ruin`]

Looks like somebody got tired of playin IC or Diddykong on FD.

lol @ "This aint Kirby Kid" somebody got tired of playin MK.

 

[Suspect]

...what lol

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyqbz60aZw&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylX5FvOyVQo&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVkeyGyMES4&feature=channel_page#movie_player

For those wanting to see these stages being played.

 

[lain]

We don't...

 

[Y.b.M.]

Haha...Own'd

 

[Overswarm]

Lain, we get it. You're a negative nancy. It's fun trolling you and all, but when we don't even have to bait you out you just look like Inui.

 

[-KB]

You like to include a lot of "we", and "other people", and "most people", and "everyone" in your sentences. Is that like a group fetish or something?

Just be a man and say "I".

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wow, this is awful.

Idk why Overswarm wastes his intelligence by being so crazy and going against the grain so much.

Because smart people always conform.

 

[Infern Angelis]

Supermodels dont playy smash...pffff....unless its a God Kai

 

[fromundaman]

Ah, gotcha. Don't remember seeing them in any tournies, but I'll trust you on that. (Though I think trying them in the OC first would have been better.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the custom stages themselves, especially if they've been played before. I just have the impression that jumping them into a MWC may have been a bit of a rapid transition, and more importantly, the banned and counter/banned as a requirement irks me, even if I do enjoy most of those stages.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Played at Nope's last night with Taco/Capem/Lou/Fonz/Nope/Cake/Champ/Keist/etc. We used the custom stages. Most of us Liked them for singles. Doubles was apparently ifffy but I haven't practiced doubles on them yet.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

i hate the counterpicks more than anything. custom stages for me are kinda eh, but the forcing of some of the gayest stages in this game into counterpicks is just completely awful.

 

[Nope]

i hate the counterpicks more than anything. custom stages for me are kinda eh, but the forcing of some of the gayest stages in this game into counterpicks is just completely awful.

/sigh I REALLY wish people would read and realize what is going on.

Stage List:

Starters:

Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Battlefield
Pokémon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise
Equity
Libra

Group A: These stages are in every tournament by default
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Pokémon Stadium 2
Pictochat
Abyss

Group B: Minimum of 3 stages from this list Maximum of 5 stages
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
Rainbow Cruise

Group C: Minimum of 2 stages from this list, max of 4
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Onett

EVERY Stage from B list and Above is ON on 80%+ of all tournaments in the Midwest other then the custom stages. There is no change in those. So if you wish to host a Circuit event and still keep a pretty standard list for the MW just take two stages from the C list. Norfair and Luigi's Mansion are also staples for most tournaments around here. I'm tired of people blowing up about the stage list.

I have NO idea why people think all the stages are on or the list is anything but normal for Ohio. The custom stages are the only changes, I would bet $100 that 90% of the people talking have never even looked at them let alone played on the 3 new stages. Please don't be ignorant and go around posting about stages you have not played. Give them a fair chance for more then 2-3 games. Stages do not determine player skill, they help try to balance out the game for certain match-ups and characters. BETTER players will know the stages well and not be surprised by any tricks and overcome any so called disadvantages. They also may have secondary characters prepared that do better on such stages. Everyone needs to get over it and realize this is how smash is.

 

[fromundaman]

DP and Norfair are the only stages from group C that I've seen much, and I hear many complaints about both pretty often... (Norfair more than DP though)

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Im mainly talking about group c if anything other than norfair or weegees is available like at the bootcamps. I hate that stagelist. As unconventional as customs are, im fine with trying them. Also some stages that are legal at nearly all midwest tourneys i never agreed with (see japes and pirate ship)
IMO:
green greens is NO
onett is NO
PTAD is NO
Pipes is NO
distant planet maybe

but like i said if the the only real difference is the customs than i really dont have much of a problem.

 

[Mr.E]

EVERY Stage from B list and Above is ON on 80%+ of all tournaments in the Midwest other then the custom stages. There is no change in those. So if you wish to host a Circuit event and still keep a pretty standard list for the MW just take two stages from the C list. Norfair and Luigi's Mansion are also staples for most tournaments around here. I'm tired of people blowing up about the stage list.

... They also may have secondary characters prepared that do better on such stages. Everyone needs to get over it and realize this is how smash is.

Well, you'd have a quite a few detractors that believe these are the "wrong" Smash skills to emphasize and facepalm at our stage list even before the customs and more radical stages that a TO may use (such as PTAD). Nevermind that even a relatively benign stage, like Battlefield, requires proper know-how to best manipulate the features available. I'm not sure why emphasizing the nuances of a cramped stage of platforms is more desirable than the vertical gameplay emphasized by Norfair or whatever, though... and the "most skilled" players tend to win either way.

ITT I turn this into "janky stages" 2.0.

 

[TheKiest]

@KB: When OS says "We" he means the TOs who have agreed to help with this circuit. I haven't posted much because I agree with 95% of whta he says about that.

Even if I'm apparently speaking for myself, that still technically means that "we" is correct.... heh

Also, as for Group C.

If TOs don't pick Onett then it won't be at the next event (or if it isn't played on when it's picked).

And I can tell you guys as an OUGA leader whose crew is the MOST LIBERAL when it comes to stages we might not even have Onett in our tournament. (Not because it's "bad", but because we can't say no to 4 of the other stages)


Also, more footage of the customs:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0F95A1011FD9F1A4

 

[Overswarm]

Im mainly talking about group c if anything other than norfair or weegees is available like at the bootcamps. I hate that stagelist. As unconventional as customs are, im fine with trying them. Also some stages that are legal at nearly all midwest tourneys i never agreed with (see japes and pirate ship)
IMO:
green greens is NO
onett is NO
PTAD is NO
Pipes is NO
distant planet maybe

but like i said if the the only real difference is the customs than i really dont have much of a problem.

Basically how most people are, which is why I allowed Norfair and Luigi's Mansion as group C even though they're basically staples. At the time of the stage list, I looked at other regions and saw the stages that were most likely to be absent and put 'em in Group C. If a TO wants to have the other stages, why would I stop them? We've had dozens of tournaments with varying amounts of those stages, and none of those tournaments have been failures. Attendance has never been affected, and no one has yet to have a single legitimate upset in tournament that I've seen based on those stages. The most common times I've seen them is during matchups people are unfamiliar with or when they're against someone who they know hasn't played them.

Also, the GKais tournament list is toned down from last tournament. I put limitations on them by having a minimum and maximum, you can't just have every stage.

Onett is experimental, I'll agree.... but it might not even be on at any tournament. TOs don't gotta use it.

 

[COHEED AND CAMBRIA]

Would you like my Weekend event in November To be a part of the Circuit? I can hold alot of people and Its in Ohio Im MOre then Willing to do so.

 

[TheKiest]

We already have November lined up with KY, then I think it's IN or OUGA in January/Feb (we don't do December due to Holidays/weather)

OS can prolly answer this better than I can.

 

[ArgentStew]

I have NO idea why people think all the stages are on or the list is anything but normal for Ohio. The custom stages are the only changes, I would bet $100 that 90% of the people talking have never even looked at them let alone played on the 3 new stages. Please don't be ignorant and go around posting about stages you have not played. Give them a fair chance for more then 2-3 games. Stages do not determine player skill, they help try to balance out the game for certain match-ups and characters. BETTER players will know the stages well and not be surprised by any tricks and overcome any so called disadvantages. They also may have secondary characters prepared that do better on such stages. Everyone needs to get over it and realize this is how smash is.

I used the custom stages at my last Smashfest, and we've been experimenting with them further at the NEOH tourney yesterday... Personally, I think they're stupid, and I'm not the only one that thinks that around here...

"This is how Smash is"? Things change... Brawl made a lot of changes from the other games... Why did the Melee rule set get rid of most if not all of the janky stages? Shouldn't we be moving away from suggesting the use of Onett and custom stages? If the next official rule set keeps the weird stages and suggests the addition of custom stages, I'll bake a frickin' cake for the championship...

I didn't like how this was being run in the first place and the more I see, the more I don't like about it... I'm sorry...

 

[solecalibur]

We already have November lined up with KY, then I think it's IN or OUGA in January/Feb (we don't do December due to Holidays/weather)

OS can prolly answer this better than I can.

Do you think Solecalibur's Mansion can take a spot for December? I'll get pics of my house when I get home but Max venue would probly be 100 ?

 

[TheKiest]

As awesome of a venue your house would be, December up by Cleveland is THEE worse time/place to schedule a tourney, much less a circuit event.

Cinci would have to drive a good 5ish hours in possibly horrible weather, and that's just the worse case scenario for Ohio.

I also would wait till you had more experience hosting at your place with more people before you take on 100.

Good suggestion though.

 

[solecalibur]

As awesome of a venue your house would be, December up by Cleveland is THEE worse time/place to schedule a tourney, much less a circuit event.

Cinci would have to drive a good 5ish hours in possibly horrible weather, and that's just the worse case scenario for Ohio.

I also would wait till you had more experience hosting at your place with more people before you take on 100.

Good suggestion though.

I still want to try and host one this December maybe OC before MW

 

[Overswarm]

If anyone wants to host an event, please send me a PM with your potential venue, when you'd be free in the spring to host a venue (I'd have to know when spring breaks are and whatnot), and what your venue would offer (X amount of TVs/power strips/Wiis, tables, chairs, outlets, housing, heating, internet, etc.). Pics would help as well.

 

[Nope]

I used the custom stages at my last Smashfest, and we've been experimenting with them further at the NEOH tourney yesterday... Personally, I think they're stupid, and I'm not the only one that thinks that around here...

"This is how Smash is"? Things change... Brawl made a lot of changes from the other games... Why did the Melee rule set get rid of most if not all of the janky stages? Shouldn't we be moving away from suggesting the use of Onett and custom stages? If the next official rule set keeps the weird stages and suggests the addition of custom stages, I'll bake a frickin' cake for the championship...

I didn't like how this was being run in the first place and the more I see, the more I don't like about it... I'm sorry...

What don't you like about the custom stages? What aspects, are they broken or do you already have it in your mind that your going to hate them no matter how they play. If you have that mindset then no matter how good a stage could be your not going to like it. We aren't TELLING you that you have to have Onett on. It's an option, most tournaments will be the same list you've been using in Ohio for the last year and the only difference is the addition of custom stages.

"This is how smash is" I'm talking about smash as a game being about character choice and stage selection. They are important aspects of smash and NOT balanced like other fighters, custom stages and other stages are a attempt at trying to level the playing field in certain match-ups. Melee was NOT perfect either and brawl probably never will be too, but at least we are trying out different things to try to make it better then it is.

 

[Overswarm]

Nope knows where it's at.


These stages might not work out; I'm hoping some of them don't. It'd be nice for someone to actually make a video or rampage through a tournament using a stage to their definite advantage. But... as of now, they add to the game and addition is always better whne there aren't negative aspects. While limiting options might make decisions easier ("well, all the stages are FD, BF, and Smashville, so I guess I can main Diddy"), it doesn't necessarily make a game better or more competitive. I take the slow approach to making rulesets; it might not be as fast as you'd like, but it is the right approach... and will come up with the best possible result. Custom stages are a way to speed up the process, really. If we could perfect how custom stages work in tournament, we could theoretically replace any "janky" stage with a non-janky version.

 

[Count]

Nope knows where it's at.


These stages might not work out; I'm hoping some of them don't. It'd be nice for someone to actually make a video or rampage through a tournament using a stage to their definite advantage. But... as of now, they add to the game and addition is always better whne there aren't negative aspects. While limiting options might make decisions easier ("well, all the stages are FD, BF, and Smashville, so I guess I can main Diddy"), it doesn't necessarily make a game better or more competitive. I take the slow approach to making rulesets; it might not be as fast as you'd like, but it is the right approach... and will come up with the best possible result. Custom stages are a way to speed up the process, really. If we could perfect how custom stages work in tournament, we could theoretically replace any "janky" stage with a non-janky version.

my thought process is 'well, i'm complete garbage with everybody else, so I guess I can main diddy.'

 

[fromundaman]

Quick question: Why did you make all the custom stages small size? I'm guessing it was to discourage camping, but couldn't you have done that by keeping the stage the same way but using medium blastzones?

This is more out of curiosity than anything.

(Again, I have yet to play these stages, but if I remember correctly, small custom maps have insanely close blastzones.)

 

[Overswarm]

Most of the standard Brawl stages are "small" sized. Medium is actually quite large. The stages were originally medium and MK was able to live to ridiculous % in the first matches I played.

I mostly changed stage "sizes" by how far the main platforms go side to side, as I have much more control in that area.

 

[fromundaman]

Ah, gotcha.

Aren't all the standard starter stages the equivalent of medium size though? Or am I mistaken? I thought custom "small" size was only a bit bigger blastzones than Brinstar's.

 

[ArgentStew]

What don't you like about the custom stages? What aspects, are they broken or do you already have it in your mind that your going to hate them no matter how they play. If you have that mindset then no matter how good a stage could be your not going to like it. We aren't TELLING you that you have to have Onett on. It's an option, most tournaments will be the same list you've been using in Ohio for the last year and the only difference is the addition of custom stages.

"This is how smash is" I'm talking about smash as a game being about character choice and stage selection. They are important aspects of smash and NOT balanced like other fighters, custom stages and other stages are a attempt at trying to level the playing field in certain match-ups. Melee was NOT perfect either and brawl probably never will be too, but at least we are trying out different things to try to make it better then it is.

I started out being very interested in them... I was complaining when they weren't coming up in random (until I figured out why)... I speak out of disappointment when I say that they suck... We keep finding broken ways to play on them... For example, Blue Rogue vs me MK ditto on Equity took place solely on the edge because it's so easy to abuse the moving platforms... :/

I never used a word remotely similar to TELLING... I said (and believe) that you shouldn't even be SUGGESTING the use of Onett... If you're trying to level the playing field then use stages that don't favor a lot of characters so much... We had a big discussion in one of the NEOH threads about why Japes and DP shouldn't be legal stages...

Normally, I'd applaud you all for trying new stuff... The only thing is that you're trying new stuff in a regional circuit with a lot of money and reputation on the line... It may not be new to the few people who have been testing it, but to the rest of us OS just came out of nowhere with this...

 

[jokey665]

Normally, I'd applaud you all for trying new stuff... The only thing is that you're trying new stuff in a regional circuit with a lot of money and reputation on the line... It may not be new to the few people who have been testing it, but to the rest of us OS just came out of nowhere with this...

You should stay in the loop, I've had the stages for months. And I didn't even get them straight from OS. :-X

 

[TheKiest]

But that's his point exactly, not everyone knows someone who had the customs: much less people from other states. People didn't even know about them existing in the first place.

Personally I don't think these stages will be played on enough to give sufficient evidence if they should be or shouldn't be allowed. I think OS hasn't used Stage Studio to the best of it's ability and I know
that people can make better stages than he can. However, no one else has the guts (or lack of public opinion) to do so.

It's kind of a gamble allowing them in a circuit. On the other hand, if these were at a non-circuit, we wouldn't even have a debate as intense as this (this is going across many threads now). Like if OUGA would have introduced them at "Back to School" no one would treat the stages seriously. It takes a major event like a circuit to truly bring them into the light.

Some custom stage triva:
Ports 3 and 4 start in the middle for all the customs IF THERE ARE 3-4 PLAYERS IN THE GAME (AKA DOUBLES). It had to be this way in order for 1st and 2nd to be on opposite ends to have 1v1 be fair. (The starting points don't look at ports exactly... it searches left to right for a player that's in the game and puts that player at "starting point 1" then continues left till it finds another player and puts that player at "starting point 2" etc.)

SO when determining port, make sure you are aware of where the starting places will be.
@OS: Please add this info to the OP.

 

[Overswarm]

I never used a word remotely similar to TELLING... I said (and believe) that you shouldn't even be SUGGESTING the use of Onett... If you're trying to level the playing field then use stages that don't favor a lot of characters so much... We had a big discussion in one of the NEOH threads about why Japes and DP shouldn't be legal stages...

If I could snap my fingers and make something come true, I'd make a ton of custom stages, one per character, and each one gave an individual character a slight advantage while helping no other. Then we'd have starters and all the CPs.

Unfortunately, it isn't that clear cut.

History has shown that you can't balance smash for single character users. When you do, you do so at the detriment of anyone who wants to have a secondary. The best characters end up being those that do the best on the most common stages (starters), and all CPs become weak and frail.

When you recognize stages that aren't necessarily good for certain characters as legitimate until proven to be detrimental to competitive play (imo, stages that lead to an auto-win for a character regardless of matchup, stages that result in consistent and uncontrollable stage intereference, stages that result in consistent and uncontrollable low % KOs, etc.), you are allowing other characters and playstyles to be available.

To "level the playing field" with only changing stages, we can't hurt any other character arbitrarily. I have yet to see a reason for Onett to be removed, so I put it on. I've played on it a lot and have found it to be a good CP for characters like Olimar, Lucario, Fox, and D3 if his opponent is CGable and doesn't have a good projectile, but not broken for any of the characters in question. Removing the stage merely because it is different or because we find that several top tier characters that do excellently on standard starter stages do poorly here is an unacceptable arbitrary change.

If you ever think a stage is super broken for some reason, just read the initial post and follow the process. ANYONE that participates in the circuit can get a stage banned, for good, in the MWC. If it's banned in the MWC, you're probably not going to find it elsewhere. If you reeeeeeally hate Onett, make a few vids, maybe throw on some commentary, or just abuse it in tournament. People used to be scared about the D3 infinite without cause and many regions banned it solely because of that. It is entirely possible that characters like Olimar or Fox could have been much more widespread without the banning of this stage. D3s would have taken people there all day, people would have countered by picking non-CGable characters that do well there like Pikachu, Olimar, Fox, etc., or by characters with their own infinites like Diddy. Removing a single stage changes the path of the game towards something that we've created rather than what the game creates.

My process is slow, but any broken stages will be removed and any non-broken stages will stay. It's the best way to get the perfect ruleset over a course of time without inadvertantly altering a game's metagame.

 

[ArgentStew]

I don't have a particular problem with Onett... There has to be more to it than the D3 infinite... It's still a scary stage against D3 since he can just CG you until a car comes... I'd trade a hit from a car to pile up damage on my opponent and then possibly kill him... I'll look into your process about some of these stages...

IMO, Equity and Libra shouldn't be neutrals... I haven't seen a custom stage that's any better than a CP yet... Still that's just my opinion... I won't talk about it more here...

Good luck trying to inspire some change, but I honestly don't think it's going to help much... :/

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Okay okay, I just wanna say something before anyone else wants to decide to start an argument about how bad of an idea this apparently is.

Arguing with Overswarm is dumb.

I've done it a lot. I don't see why people continue to think they can prove a point to him, it's not going to make a difference. Whether or not you think you have a fact to prove him wrong, or not, he's not going to listen to you unless you prove it to him with solid facts.

Let's use these circuit events for what they're meant for. To test these ideas and see if they're viable to apply to our tournament rule set. I'd much rather see data and results and WATCH people exploit why this shouldn't be neutral and that should be banned, instead of trying to prove a point with something that hasn't happened yet.

This circuit is going to be used to test the possibility of custom AND "janky" stages being used in tournament play. If it works? Awesome. If it doesn't? Well at least we have a rule set already made we can fall back on.