Mindgames dont exist: The Truth

[EnigmaticCam]

Not understanding what your opponent is doing is the entire basis of mindgames

But that doesn't make any difference in chess. It's all about the position. you make the best move according to what the positioin is. It doesn't matter what your opponent does or what he's thinking. There's only so many moves he can do on the board.

 

[Brookman]

But that doesn't make any difference in chess. It's all about the position. you make the best move according to what the positioin is. It doesn't matter what your opponent does or what he's thinking. There's only so many moves he can do on the board.

Right, when your move, according to the situation on the board, results in something negative happening to you
(that was not intended to happen) it's the result of not actually making the best possible move. Which means you are just inexperienced.

 

[A-Laon]

Okay, mindgames don't exist.

Moneymatch?

 

[Aiko]

looks like he was playing rock, paper, scissors, and his opponent already threw out rock a couple of times...gee looks more like common sense to me. Either way he had very few options..go to the ledge or go the stage... ill be dam(n)ed if that classifies as some jedi mind trick..

You shot yourself in the foot here. This whole analogy of rock paper scissors is precisely what I mean by mindgames and by thus stating this, you have also proved the existence of them. If you haven't already, I would suggest you read this article by sirlin, although it does appear you already have a clear grasp of the concept.

Rock paper scissors article

With yourself in fox's situation, what would you have done? fly to the stage or to the ledge? The obvious choice which, 90% of the time you will choose, is towards the stage, and the less obvious choice and more risky, is towards the ledge. Yet by choosing the higher risk decision, you have maximised your chances of surviving. This would be unpredictability, which is a factor of mindgames.

 

[Kakashi Hatake (Jounin)]

This is the second thread I've seen today that actually made me laugh (The first being Zel's new thread.)...keep it up. ;D

 

[Wobbles]

-_-

Mindgames = the anticipation of a course of action, and the deviation from somebody's expectations of your behavior. If you can accurately predict your opponent's next moves, you have "teh mindgraines." If you can deviate from what they expect you to do through thought and intelligence, you are also using "mindgames."

In any situation, you have a certain number of options; "mindgames" is being able to discern what your opponent will do, and being take the action he doesn't see coming.

Where people go wrong is in saying "teach me a mindgame." "What's your favorite mindgame?" "I don't know any mindgames." Mindgames vary from situation to situation. There are some basic tricks, like dashing forward into a backwards wavedash (a tactic used to goad an opponent into attacking at the wrong moment). Dash-dancing, while termed "a mindgame," is just a movement technique.

Yes, the mindgame of a match exists. When you call an opponent's move, when you know what he thinks you're thinking and deviate, when you break your own patterns midmatch to exploit an opponent's behavior, you are playing the mindgame.

 

[Brookman]

You shot yourself in the foot here. This whole analogy of rock paper scissors is precisely what I mean by mindgames and by thus stating this, you have also proved the existence of them. If you haven't already, I would suggest you read this article by sirlin, although it does appear you already have a clear grasp of the concept.

Rock paper scissors article

With yourself in fox's situation, what would you have done? fly to the stage or to the ledge? The obvious choice which, 90% of the time you will choose, is towards the stage, and the less obvious choice and more risky, is towards the ledge. Yet by choosing the higher risk decision, you have maximised your chances of surviving. This would be unpredictability, which is a factor of mindgames.

If that works that just means the edge hogger is inexperienced. KDJ used to do this to me all the time, He lost a few stocks to this last time we played.

 

[Nafix]

Yea, mindgames is a ******** word and people need to stop saying it cause its god**** annoying. Why don't we call it common sense or good decision making, but don't bring it up during the playing of smash. And people quoting videos, stop acting like a$$rats. You don't know what those two people were thinking when they made their decisions. Catching someone with a backair because you called out their recovery is not a mindgame. It's either picking up on someone's tendacies, a calculated guess, or a lucky guess.

 

[Aiko]

picking up someone's tendencies IS mindgames, but I do agree with you, mindgames is a **** word. It does need to be eradicated or at least split into more precise terms.

 

[Cra$hman]

hypnotism is a mindgame, i once got simna to think he was playing top tier when he was playing ness

 

[Brookman]

"That's just, like, your opinion, man."

As annoying as it is to see all the newbs spamming about mind gamserising people, it's really trivial. Fact: people will tend to believe and disbelieve 'mind games' Fact: people will disregard what you say.

It's not mind games, it's just playing the game. Most people just don't play the game well.

 

[BigRick]

I agree that the word is overused, but personally I usually use it to joke around. So when I want to sound dumb I say sumtin like ''MINDGAMEZ SON!'' or ''SNAPZ! I GOT OUTMINDGAMED!''

When I talk more seriously, I tend to use the terms that you'll see in standard fighters, like fakeouts and mixups. A few explanations for newbies here, but there's plenty of players that could do a better explanation than me:

A fakeout is a move that is used to bait your opponent into making something that puts you into an advantageous position. In smash, a good example of a commonly used fakout is dashdancing, and that PC vs M2K video shows this: the repeated dashdances make M2K whiff a grab. But dashdancing is like the simplest of all fakeouts, it can be sumtin more complicated, like a SHLing Falco that will attract a Fox Nair, so the Falco can use his own Nair to counter Fox's Nair right after that.

Another kind of Fakeout or bait maneuver doesn't simply involve a specific move, but can also involve overall tactics. Camping is a good example of this, good camping spots are spots that limits your opponent's attack options, and when you camp, you can force an opponent into putting himself in a risky position. Watch out though, he might also ACT like he's in a risky position... hehehe

Kinda like Wobbles said, mixups simply consist of varying between attack patterns in order to make your opponent chose the wrong answer to your attack. It's basically like playing rock paper scissors against your opponent. For example, you can mix between a grab or a dsmash right after jabbing your opponent, and your opponent will fail if he tries to spotdodge a dsmash or shield a grab.

That's mindgames for ya... also sumtimes playing smart is not using mindgames, because playing smart is simply using a cheap move that will work all the time in the current situation cause there is not answer to it, like a Peach downsmashing a defending opponent that is low on shield. The better characters in the game require less mindgames because they can get away with plenty of stuff without being punished (like Marth/Sheik/Peach that can space their aerials to avoid shieldgrabs, while Fox/Falco can shine right after their aerials).

Finally, like Brookman said, a very important part of the game is learning to avoid the bad situations, the traps that your opponent sets up to you. A bad Fox will simply try to reflect turnips and block Peach's float cancelled Fairs, so he will get ***** in the end. A good Fox will rather run away and laser spam, or keep the pressure with his own tactics and combos.

So to conclude I would say that mindgames do exist and are important. But they are less important then what ppl think. Ppl saying stuff like ''get more mindgamez'' is inaceptable.

 

[Vall3y]

theres also the example of rock paper sccissors, which is also played competitvly, and some people are better in that than others.
the 'tech-skill' aspect in rps isnt very important, so what does make a player good? abillity to out guess his opponents. i guess it does have lots to do with expirence though, and some luck.

 

[ºOblivionº]

...Mindgames do exist in Smash, believe it or not. I believe there are countless threads within the forum that describe each and every single one that's been developed.

Whether you choose to acknowledge them or not is entirely up to you.

As for "intangibles" in sports...well, I think you need to take a closer look. Football's a really good example of mindgames in action. Those pretty formations on the field aren't part of a ballet, man; they're strategic placements of each player. And the whole "audible" thing that QB's pull? Yeah...that's meant to throw off the defense and confuse them.

Stop being so literal. Hes saying its just another word for tricks. And nothing to be as stern as everone puts it out to be.

Its funny none the less.

 

[Brookman]

Technical ability is, easily, the most important part of melee. If you lack the ability to control your character and execute the appropriate techniques smoothly you can't be good. An example of this is Y2KBakura, who talks about how he emphasizes mind games, not tech. At a tourny a month ago (or two maybe?) and one just two weeks ago as well, He suicides so frequently it's ridiculous. All he does is dash dance camp, and poorly I might add. Most of the time I just grabbed him or up smashed him while he was dash dancing.

Of course, I don't mean to offend him, I consider him to be one of my friends in the community, so if you read this baka, no offense.

 

[Cort]

This topic is great.

The idea and stuff behind mindgames is pretty solid. It's just using the ****ing word to describe every intangible thing going on behind the actual match just gets annoying as hell. Newbs will use it as an excuse or reason for everything they don't really understand, and it just gets annoying. People keep trying to give advice by telling people "they need to mindgame into this and that" and "get better mindgames". It all makes me want to vomit...

The general idea behind mindgames pretty much does exist, how people go about using it and understanding the general mechanics varies from player to player, mostly based on how experienced that player is in playing good people. Every good player will learn to trick/outwit/predict other players in given, random situations... it all comes from a lot of experience.

That is all, really...

 

[Aiko]

I agree, tech ability is the most important factor, but when it comes to players of equal skill and technical ability, the mental department is what sets apart the winner from the loser. (unless neither one can consistantly beat the other, in which case they are of equal skill and the deciding factor is luck)

 

[Mcscruff]

They are nothing but lies and fables made up by the Man to oppress the people. But seriously Im sick of hearing it every other sentence, the usage of the word is overly saturated and doesnt even mean anything. In other sports or competive events they have intangibles in smash everything is mindgames this mindgames that.

And I love all the psuedo analysts that can see the "mindgames" or lack off, by watching a couple of videos. Also it seems others use these "mindgames" as a blanket of comfort against their lack of technical(another annoying word) ability.

In short I think anytime the word mindgame(s) is used it should be substitued with some other dummy word(like the gay wii thing). This will not solve anything as the context will still be the same but it would be somewhat amusing.

In closing as the late rick james, parodied by chappelle, would say **** YO' MINDGAMES!!

you sir, are an idiot.

 

[Zink]

mindgames=being tricksy and figuring out your opponent's tricksyness. that simple. it's a bit too general, but since most everyone knows what it is it's a decent term IMO.

 

[moogle]

This topic is great.

The idea and stuff behind mindgames is pretty solid. It's just using the ****ing word to describe every intangible thing going on behind the actual match just gets annoying as hell. Newbs will use it as an excuse or reason for everything they don't really understand, and it just gets annoying. People keep trying to give advice by telling people "they need to mindgame into this and that" and "get better mindgames". It all makes me want to vomit...

The general idea behind mindgames pretty much does exist, how people go about using it and understanding the general mechanics varies from player to player, mostly based on how experienced that player is in playing good people. Every good player will learn to trick/outwit/predict other players in given, random situations... it all comes from a lot of experience.

That is all, really...

Cort wins this thread. <3

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'll let everyone in on a secret, the correct term would actually be "Metagaming". OH MY GOD! Unleashed!

Unfortunately the hole already exists, and we must use the word "mind games" instead of metagaming.

 

[Respawn]

Mindgames exist.

If you are inexperienced, then you will fall prey to mindgames. (or metagames)
If you are, in fact, experienced, then you have less of a chance of falling for mindgames.

It just depends on how (excuse me for being blunt) stupid you are. You may be a little stupid, you may be really stupid. Your opponent wants to find out just how stupid you are. When s/he does, then they think to themselves: "I'm gonna' play a little trick on them, and see if they fall for it! *tee hee*"

Your mind automatically predicts a few scenarios on possible outcomes of a situation, then it chooses the most logical one, based on any data that it has on the situation. What makes the most sense. If your opponent decides to switch it up, your brain gets confused, and panics. "It was supposed to happen this way! Why did it happen this way? I'm confused!"

Your mind has been tricked. Your opponent has done this on purpose. You're doing exactly what they want you to do. They are in control of the match. You keep screwing up. Etcetera, etcetera. Mindgames. It's just a word, that describes a situation.

The End

 

[Mew2King]

It's funny cuz it's true

Very few people have good mindgames at all, and people do use it as an excuse to explain things or to make themselves look better when they lack tech skill. Most people that lack tech skill just plain suck at the game, not all but definitely most, but they try to say they have mindgames because they can't move fast just to make themselves feel better.

Another thing is that people who do move fast people say don't have mindgames, and while that is true for some players, most top good players are really smart. Being fast means just that, you're fast. IF anything, this means you have more options and potential than people that move slow because you can do more things. I remember people saying I didn't have mindgames with Fox just because I can move fast. Same with KoreanDJ. People who say this, especially with people constantly improving, are just plain stupid.

 

[Cort]

People also don't realize how quickly the brain processes all of these possibilities and actions in really high level of play. It's mostly instinctual things you generally don't plan for. You don't personally acknowledge all that's going on, you only quickly react to different situations based on what you can predict.

There was an interesting documentary on Starcraft players I saw a while ago. The really good ones mostly relied on instinctual actions based on what they're experienced to and whatnot. The more amateur players relied more on what they saw and heard, and then followed through with what they knew might work in that situation...

It all just comes with experience. It's why you don't see random players that have been playing for like less than a year place really well at large events.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

First off I want to say mindgames are not a physical object, they are an abstract thought, so there for they are present but they do not exist. Anyway...here is the actual definition of mindgames

Mindgames- deliberate actions of calculated psychological manipulation intended to intimidate or confuse (usually for competitive advantage); "football players try to play mind games with the opposition"; "the jeweler's mind game is to convince lovers that the size of a gemstone reflects the depth of their feelings"

The same can be applied to smash bros (but most of the time I feel it is dumb luck if you would like me to explain it I will but right now don't feel like it)

 

[Respawn]

As for changing the word: It's just a word, people. People are going to use it, a lot. That's what people do, they use words . If you want to say you tricked someone, go ahead. No one's stopping you. It's an easy way to describe a situation. Like saying SWD. Everybody knows what you mean.

<sarcasm>
Hey, if we're going to change the word mindgames, so people understand it a little better, why don't we do it to some other words? Like SWD! We'll start typing out Super Wavedash. Or better yet, lets call it: drop a bomb then slide back and forth on the 41st and 42nd frames, thus exploiting a glitch in the programming allowing you to slide across the stage.
</sarcasm>
SWD isn't actual wavedashing, but everybody already knows what it means. So why change it?

The point is, it's just a word. A word that makes it easier to describe something. Like a shortcut key on a computer. Something so trivial shouldn't bother people so much, there are a lot more important things in the world.

First off I want to say mindgames are not a physical object, they are an abstract thought, so there for they are present but they do not exist.

Semantics...

 

[tc1]

You don't exactly have to call em mind games

and you who refer to other fighting games that don't have mind games.. Smash isn't like other games this is a fighting game in a league of its own.

 

[shminkledorf]

SWD isn't actual wavedashing, but everybody already knows what it means. So why change it?

Because it does something identical to wavedashing, but on a larger scale. And it exists, too. But I'm with Brookman, you either play smart or you don't. That's it. Smart decisions to outsmart your opponent, or dumb ones to lose by.

 

[Zink]

Aha, but how do you judge which is which? If I've got Firebird charging outside the ledge, and you're ledgehogging me, but then you ledgehop an aerial to counter me going to the stage, and instead I go to the ledge, which did I do? I did the less obvious and beneficial move, but it worked anyway. Or maybe it's neutral A spamming. It's dumb to spam A and rapid punch, cuz you get punished. But if I take advantage of this and spam A so that you keep trying to attack through it, because it's such I dumb move I must be going to cancel it, and you keep getting hit by it... was it still dumb? It's certainly not common sense.

 

[Nafix]

hey brrokman, i'm no noob, and i'd probably whoop the **** out of you in smash. just because i don't have a thousand posts doesn't mean i don't know how to play the game.

 

[pdk]

In other fighting games "mindgames" is merely playing smart, but in the smash community it becomes this huge complicated subject that I see many don't really understand.

signed, if there's one word you see thrown around haphazardly here it's this

of course you gotta remember that the people here don't play other fighters (aside from 2 or 3 guilty gear fans) and think street fighter 3 or virtua fighter are the tic-tac-toe to ssbm's chess

 

[Aesir]

Nafix seriously how relevant to the thread is that?

I'm agreeing that mindgames don't really exist.

it comes down to experience and common sense.

 

[Zink]

It oviously isn't common sense, playing Smash is a very abstract concept. And even a person with little Smash experience can mindgame you with a simple dash> WD back> smash.

 

[Aesir]

Theres these two buttons at the top of your controller, press either one of them. guess what happens ? OMG SHIELD O_O

 

[mood4food77]

mindgames are a way to play with your opponents mind

they exist, it's what seperates the good from the bad, like m2k from me

it's taking a risk, hoping you lure your opponent into your evil trap

that vid, that was m2k's frustration probably, he wants the grab and won't be satisfied until he gets it, i've done it too, everyone has a bad moment, i just have them more often than most, but that also could be what PC wanted m2k to do, luring m2k into his trap

mindgames exist, we just can't tell anyone how to do them

 

[HylianLord]

i'd just like to point out that the firebird example for "mindgames" is not a good example of what mindgames are. if most ppl just stop and watch their opponent, they can see which way their opponent's firefox is gonna go. that's not mindgames, thats just reaction time -- in other words tech skill (of some sort). unless you are guessing which direction your opponent is gonna go from a prediction, then that's just an educated guess, which is basically what Brookman is saying -- playing from experience. you basically have an idea of how far your opponent will think and what most ppl do, so you make a billion educated guesses in a game (and the better choices you make, then better "mindgames" you have). as ppl said earlier, alot of ppl are just using "mindgames" to replace "haha i got lucky".

on a side note... someone here please agree with me that bombsoldier has mindgames ... otherwise how the hell does he hit so much... random spam =/= always work ><.

meh random thoughts... i'm a horrible writer ><

 

[mog87]

Okay, mindgames don't exist.

Moneymatch?

Umm you challenging me? Well I guess you stand a better chance of beating me in smash rather than trying to refute my argument

you sir, are an idiot.

You quoted me to say that? Well thank you sir for your opinion and well thought out explanation of said opinion...

 

[Miharu]

hey brrokman, i'm no noob, and i'd probably whoop the **** out of you in smash. just because i don't have a thousand posts doesn't mean i don't know how to play the game.

Rofl, I'd like to see you try. Make it a $100 MM, and we'll see who's crying in the end.

As mog said, "mindgames" is overly used, and it's just now a blanket term used to categorize anything that doesn't seem to relate to technical skill. It's overused, and it's pretty much lost its meaning. People now use it to describe literally everything that doesn't relate to muscle memory, from what I've seen in this thread. However, it's much more complicated than simply tricking your opponent with a WD backwards -> fsmash.

 

[Silas06]

mindgames are a way to play with your opponents mind

they exist, it's what seperates the good from the bad, like m2k from me

it's taking a risk, hoping you lure your opponent into your evil trap

that vid, that was m2k's frustration probably, he wants the grab and won't be satisfied until he gets it, i've done it too, everyone has a bad moment, i just have them more often than most, but that also could be what PC wanted m2k to do, luring m2k into his trap

mindgames exist, we just can't tell anyone how to do them

you may as well have said golf is the act of golf.

what seperates you from m2k is intelligence, not mind games.

don't need to take a risk to "mind games" someone

you can, most certainly teach someone to "mindgames" someone. considering there are easy things you can do to trick people. Like giving them onion crackers instead of normal, which is what they asked for. So you trick their mind and mouth into thinking they will get normal tasting crackers. but they will actually get ****ty onion tasting ccrackers..my mouth is dry.

 

[mood4food77]

i'm pretty sure m2k's IQ isn't that much higher than mine

sometimes you do, sometimes not playing mindgames is a mindgame

no two mindgames are the same, they may look the same but will produce different results

and your example just negated what you meant, you mindgamed your opponented into thinking it was a normal cracker when instead an onion cracker, which means you tricked your opponent into your evil plan, way to go