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[The Milk Monster]

In Plus, you can still kill with Grab to Charged Up Smash and what not.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Hooray, I'm attending!





If we are talking about having Balanced Brawl be the main tournament game, my vote is no.

If it's a side event or something then I'm all for it.




That Swiss thing sounds interesting, though. I'd be interested to learn more about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_system_tournament

So, example. Let's say we have 8 players.

First round, random people paly each other. Great, now we have 4 people who are 1-0, and 4 who are 0-1.

Second round, 0-1s play each other and 1-0s play each other, just like winners and losers brackets normally go. Now we have 2 players who are 2-0, 4 who are 1-1, and 2 who are 0-2. The only difference from brackets is that the 0-2 people aren't eliminated.

Third round, people play similar opponents and we end up with 1 person who is 3-0, 3 who are 2-1, 2 who are 1-2, and 1 poor soul who is 0-3.

This continues until an arbitrary, pre-defined number of rounds. At the end, you simply have a ranked list of the players.

Swiss would replace both pools and the bracket. Pools matches count very little, and Bracket matches count so much that a single screwup can cost you the tourney. Swiss matches are in-between: No one match is going to knock you out, but a loss is a loss and you will have to fight your way back.

There are a few optional rules I would run in a Swiss tourney:
-Random initial seeding is by location.
-First three rounds only count half. This is good for people used to pools as warm-up. It also reduces the impact that the early random seeding has. If we don't have time, these are 2-stock sets.
-Final round counts extra. This would give that "grand finals excitement" that brackets enjoy, and keeps the winner from being predetermined.
-If we are short on time, bottom half of ladder gets eliminated in final rounds; priority goes to those playing for the top.

I also *MIGHT* consider a very drastic rule, where wins by time-out only count as 3/4ths of a win. I just made that up though, just something kinda interesting to think about. This is stupid.

 

[Missing Person]

Time out rule sounds pointless IMO.

I used to play games where the format was Swiss for one large pool, the players with the best records get seeded into a Final 8, and the rest of the event runs as a Single elim bracket.

Chew on that one, if you will, if you guys are considering alternative formats.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Thanks for the thorough explanation, Kyle.


The Swiss system sounds a lot like pools to me... I don't see any competitive advantages to it. The only major advantage seems to be that more people play more games, which I guess is a plus as long as you have the time.

I don't really see why you would ever do Swiss instead of just a big round-robin pools tournament, though...


I'd probably be fine with any of those possibilities though, so whatever I guess.


As for a random rule on timed matches... Why the hell would a time out count as less of a win? That's ********. Sorry, that set off my stupid-alarm.

 

[Thinkaman]

As for a random rule on timed matches... Why the hell would a time out count as less of a win? That's ********. Sorry, that set off my stupid-alarm.

Actually, it set off mine too when I re-read it. I was ready to reply about what a stupid idea that was, and what an idiot the person must be who posted it, but then I remember that I posted it. I was hungry at the time, so I blame that. Somehow.

Thanks for the thorough explanation, Kyle.

The Swiss system sounds a lot like pools to me... I don't see any competitive advantages to it. The only major advantage seems to be that more people play more games, which I guess is a plus as long as you have the time.

I don't really see why you would ever do Swiss instead of just a big round-robin pools tournament, though...

I'd probably be fine with any of those possibilities though, so whatever I guess.

Technically, all tourney formats are fundamentally the same. A swiss tourney with an equal number of rounds as players (minus one, technically) pretty much would be a giant round-robin. The issue is, that's too many rounds for more tourneys to be practical, and any sort of comeback mechanic would be double that. It's just not reasonable.

Round-robin (pools) is basically, "play every player matchup".

Swiss trims that to "play as many player matchups as you have time for, particularly the ones closest in player skill".

Brackets trims that even more to "only play winning player matchups as time goes on".

Edit: You can even think of Swiss like a bracket, but with more than double elimination. (So there would be a Loser's Loser's bracket, and a Loser's Loser's Loser's bracket, and so forth.) However, even though that works if you want to think about it that way, no one does because it's harder to visualize. A simple ladder is a better thing to imagine.

 

[Missing Person]

The thing I do like about swiss is that it makes it easier to figure out placing.

The con is, if you have a bigger turnout, it takes a LOT longer to play out a tournament, because then you have everyone still playing. The 0-5's aren't eliminated if there's still rounds to play. Anyone that can't possibly win the tournament isn't cut. Which is good for those people, because they are still able to play, and they are playing people within their skill range, which makes it more possible that they win a match or two, and that can build up confidence. But, imagine playing the opening round...6-7 times in a row. Unless you have enough setups to run the entire pool of matches for a round at the exact same time, It's going to be a headache.

That's just my .02

 

[Thinkaman]

Right. It's only a remotely reasonable comparison because there is zero overhead; no setup is ever unused.

 

[Chezzles]

Aww yeah, I'm making this. Also, how likely is the tourney going to be BBrawl? If there is some kind of voting system going down, I'd vote for.

 

[The Milk Monster]

If we do do a vote, (Though it's mostly up to Jeff), majority rules I'm guessing.

 

[Teh Future]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_system_tournament

First round, random people paly each other.

Only part I dont like, random seeding is dumb, even if it only counts as half if two of the better players have to play each otehr first round then one kinda gets screwed : /

Also someone PLEASE show me how to do brawl hax stuff there all I want is no tripping+infinite replays+ music(no added stuff, just where you can put any stage music on anywhere). Every time someone on the internets helps me I just end up with Brawl+ lmao.

I already have homebrew+gecko installed I just need to figure out how to format the sd card.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, I set up a pretty detailed spreadsheet that calculates estimates on several statistics for various types of brackets, swiss rouns, and pools of various sizes given a number of players and setups.

For example, for 16 players with 4 setups:
Single elim bracket would take 50 minutes, everyone plays 1-4
Double elim bracket would take 71 minutes, everyone plays 2-9
Triple elim bracket would take 103 minutes, everyone plays 3-14
8-round Swiss would take 160 minutes, everyone plays 8
10-round swiss would take 200 minutes, everyone plays 10
12-round swiss would take 240 minutes, everyone plays 12
Full round-robin would take 300 minutes, everyone plays 15
8-man pools round-robin would take 140 minutes, everyone plays 7
4-man pools round robin would take 60 minutes, everyone plays 3

So generally, we play something like 6-man pools (100 minutes) and a double elim bracket (71 minutes) with extra setup time in-between. (So about 200 minutes total) Everyone plays between 7-14 matches. (Last time we had 18 people and 3 setups, so It was 131 + 150 ~= 300 minutes, about right.)

An equivalent (200 minute) swiss setup would be 10 rounds. That means instead of 7-14 rounds, everyone would play 10 rounds even. For 16 people, 10 rounds of swiss is equal to triple elimination; in other words, you can lose twice and still get first. (Presumably you would have had to play the people you lost to again, if they also were placing highly.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Only part I dont like, random seeding is dumb, even if it only counts as half if two of the better players have to play each otehr first round then one kinda gets screwed : /

Also someone PLEASE show me how to do brawl hax stuff there all I want is no tripping+infinite replays+ music(no added stuff, just where you can put any stage music on anywhere). Every time someone on the internets helps me I just end up with Brawl+ lmao.

I already have homebrew+gecko installed I just need to figure out how to format the sd card.

I'll help you out on saturday, Future.

 

[Teh Future]

yay :D

also I think I will use ICs in BB playing without CGs is interesting and honestly I doubt Ill do much worse than with them LOL I guess against.. certain characters I would but Ill just go Yoshi for them

 

[Thinkaman]

This probably isn't the best place to talk about this, but the more "fun" changes that ICs got is Nana having a terrific dair (IC dair, they have one of those?) amd Popo's nair hitting inward. (Like, throwing them behind you instead of away.) The point it to pull people away from Nana. I'll leave it up to you guys to come up with a dumb name for it, like "pimp hand" or something.

 

[Teh Future]

LOL pimp hand. You should make nana's smashes = popos + sopos fair spike

 

[Thinkaman]

Only part I dont like, random seeding is dumb, even if it only counts as half if two of the better players have to play each otehr first round then one kinda gets screwed : /

Oh yeah, I forgot to address this.

All tourneys have to have some sort of initial seeding, and normally random is the fairest way to do it. Like, in Pools+Bracket the pools still have to be random, and you can get a really tough pool that screws you over. Pools+Brackets somewhat negates this by making Pools matter not that much and Brackets matter a lot... but that only makes it possible to get seriously screwed by the braceket.

The standard Swiss tie-breaker is a actually a very clever mechanic that somewhat negates that aspect. Ties are broken by the combined wins of the players you each fought. So if first round you had to play the guy who got first, you are almost certain to break any tie with someone else who didn't. And of course, no amount of dumb randomness will let you be eliminated in Swiss.

 

[JGALT]

Ugh, I want to come, but there's no way I can make this one. I'll make it up to at least one this season though.

At any rate, I'd just like to say that BBrawl looks and plays fantastically, and is certainly ready to be the main event. Think and Ampharos put a ton of time into this thing, and I've watched it progress throughout. There is ZERO difficulty moving between the two, and the fact that I've been playing BBrawl all summer hasn't affected my ability to play VBrawl upon coming back to college. The characters are just as diverse as ever, but all the crap that makes you want to throw your controller and quit Brawl forever is gone, and replaced with an entire roster that is playable in virtually any matchup. This is Brawl as it is meant to be played, and it is the future of keeping people interested in this game at a tournement level. And if you doubt it's viability on a tournament scale, there may well be some surprises waiting for you Saturday.

Plus side tourney's always suck.

Anyway, much love from out in Murray,
JGALT

 

[Cheeseonastick]

The problem with making it the main tourney is the amount of people who haven't gotten to play the game before. I know personally that I'd be at a major disadvantage compared to someone else who has. Obviously it's a very similar game to vBrawl, but you still have to adapt to the game, and that can't just be done instantaneously. My opinion is to atleast have it as a side tourney once before we even consider making it the main tourney. That way, atleast everybody knows what they're getting into and has had a chance to play the game before they're asked to get into a highly competitive tournament of it.

 

[Thinkaman]

I understand what you are saying Mike, but the amount that is changed is really so small that it takes no time at all to pick up.

Ness is a good example. Entire list of Ness changes off the top of my head:
-D-throw hits do +1% each (no knockback change)
-U-throw does +1%
-Yo-yo doesn't fail to combo some characters with 1st and 2nd hit
-Bat does +1%

And that's it. There's nothing to learn, and the only thing you might do differently is use d-throw more, though you already did that anyway. In fact, until you noticed the extra d-throw damage, you'd never notice the difference.

It's true that other characters have changes that mains would have to play at least once to make sure they get. These are limited to Yoshi, Ganon, ICs, DDD, Falco, and Ike. (If you want to stretch, I guess MK and Pikachu could benefit from testing out their changes too.) Since no hitboxes are changed, and no startup or cooldown lag on any moves are changed, you don't have to relearn matchups or approaches.

But of course, all this is just talk on my part. The only real way erase preconceptions that this is somehow a different game is to plop it down in front of people and let them see for themselves.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Im going to playtest bbrawl tomorrow when i can actually get out of bed.

 

[Cheeseonastick]

Well, it's not at all learning the mechanics or getting used to ness I'm worried about, it's learning the match-ups. Obviously the match-ups are going to change quite significantly if you say that they are all winnable now. I'll just bite my tongue for now and wait until I get to play the game Saturday.

Another potential problem though, would we even have enough wiis to make BBrawl are main game?

>___> I also feel like I need to warn you guys.... I learned how to play mk and snake so I can beat all the scrubs who CP marth or gw against me every set.

 

[The Milk Monster]

No need to warn, we got this.

I am almost positive as long as we have enough SD cards/set ups, Kyle and I will be able to make it possible for a full BBrawl tourney.

 

[Teh Future]

Since no hitboxes are changed, and no startup or cooldown lag on any moves are changed, you don't have to relearn matchups or approaches.

The entire match vs snake is getting a grab in D: Id say several matchups for ICs change because people won't be afraid to approch them as often now(mk=****)

lol mk and snake. what original choicesllololololol

 

[Thinkaman]

Another potential problem though, would we even have enough wiis to make BBrawl are main game?

Assume this is not an issue, I'll explain Saturday. We do need setups though, of course. I am bringing two good TVs but only one Wii! Somebody, help me out.

Well, it's not at all learning the mechanics or getting used to ness I'm worried about, it's learning the match-ups. Obviously the match-ups are going to change quite significantly if you say that they are all winnable now. I'll just bite my tongue for now and wait until I get to play the game Saturday.

I'd say 80% of the time matchups are different because a move or two you generally use in that matchup is better. Most matchups for Ness, Peach, Mario, and Jigglypuff are good examples of this off the top of my head, though it includes most characters.

Then maybe 10% of the time matchups are different because a move is so much better that you want to use it more than you normally would. For example, Bowser dair and Luigi dash attack were so bad before that they were NEVER used, but now they might be used.

5% of the matchups are different because some aspect is gone, such as a chaingrab or grab-release. For example, the Marth/Ness or Marth/Lucas matchup no longer has the infinite. That changes the matchup a ton, and allows them to be more aggressive. These are the sort of matchups that a little bit of practice is understandable; it's very reasonable that a Ness or Lucas player would have never explored aggressive play against Marth, or that a Marth would never have experience against a Marth that is able to be aggressive.

5% of the matchups are different because they involve Ganondorf or ICs. Lulz.

The entire match vs snake is getting a grab in D: Id say several matchups for ICs change because people won't be afraid to approch them as often now(mk=****)

lol mk and snake. what original choicesllololololol

ICs are obviously an exception. I hope to talk to you a lot about them and see where they stand. The big part of balancing them has to be making them less chaingrab-focused: They need to be more capable of fighting characters who are able to avoid grabs, and better able to deal with those who can easily separate Popo and Nana. Hopefully what stands currently is a good step in that direction; testers like them so far, but it's too soon to call them good for sure.

 

[The Milk Monster]

The only characters I don't see really benefiting from BBrawl is D3 and IC's, imho.

 

[Cheeseonastick]

The entire match vs snake is getting a grab in D: Id say several matchups for ICs change because people won't be afraid to approch them as often now(mk=****)

lol mk and snake. what original choicesllololololol

I figured that if I was going to ***** out the tier list, I was going to go all the way.

EDIT: Hey look at that.... I didn't realize that it automatically censors words for you.... Fancy.

 

[Dr. Tuxedo]

If I hadn't just come back to Lexington...

Seriously, I would love to play a Bbrawl tourney. Speaking from personal experience, having helped Think to test Bbrawl this summer, if you haven't tried it out yet I highly suggest it. I entered the competitive scene right around the time of the brawl release, so as most scrubs do, I jumped onto a main with an easy game plan. I've been a Falco guy since about a month after it came out, and while I steadily grew in my ability to do things other than CG, the predictability of matchups began to bore me.

Playing a game where all the characters are viable, though, is a vastly different experience. I've found my new favorite person to play, at least at the moment, is Link. Don't get me wrong, falco is still incredibly fun, but I've realized that I have always been a Link guy at heart, yet never been able to make him viable against competition. In the past, I never played Link, because I knew going up against my friends DDD was suicide. Now that we're playing bbrawl? It's doable. Not only that, it's fun.

Think back to when you first started playing vbrawl, before you knew what matchups were terrible, who you could legitimately make competitive, and who would get their *** kicked by metaknight. That is what playing Bbrawl is like. 35 characters? 35 are playable. Figure out who you like the most, and just play them. It's that simple.

I wish I could be at this tourney, but with school starting up soon, unfortunately I can't. Someone go in my stead and make Think play random. And I promise, I will be at the next Bbrawl event.

 

[The Milk Monster]

If I hadn't just come back to Lexington...

Seriously, I would love to play a Bbrawl tourney. Speaking from personal experience, having helped Think to test Bbrawl this summer, if you haven't tried it out yet I highly suggest it. I entered the competitive scene right around the time of the brawl release, so as most scrubs do, I jumped onto a main with an easy game plan. I've been a Falco guy since about a month after it came out, and while I steadily grew in my ability to do things other than CG, the predictability of matchups began to bore me.

Playing a game where all the characters are viable, though, is a vastly different experience. I've found my new favorite person to play, at least at the moment, is Link. Don't get me wrong, falco is still incredibly fun, but I've realized that I have always been a Link guy at heart, yet never been able to make him viable against competition. In the past, I never played Link, because I knew going up against my friends DDD was suicide. Now that we're playing bbrawl? It's doable. Not only that, it's fun.

Think back to when you first started playing vbrawl, before you knew what matchups were terrible, who you could legitimately make competitive, and who would get their *** kicked by metaknight. That is what playing Bbrawl is like. 35 characters? 35 are playable. Figure out who you like the most, and just play them. It's that simple.

I wish I could be at this tourney, but with school starting up soon, unfortunately I can't. Someone go in my stead and make Think play random. And I promise, I will be at the next Bbrawl event.

Don't be weak. Show up to this. D:

 

[Dr. Tuxedo]

Haha, I really would love to. But Saturday is the first day I can move in to my apartment. I may try and hold some Bbrawl stuff in lexington, though I'm sure it won't be as big as whatever is going on in StL.

 

[Teh Future]

lmao dont tell STL that link is unviable.

 

[Cheeseonastick]

Legan knows I make link unviable.


inb4legancomesinandwhoopsmyass

 

[Missing Person]

Well, it's not at all learning the mechanics or getting used to ness I'm worried about, it's learning the match-ups. Obviously the match-ups are going to change quite significantly if you say that they are all winnable now. I'll just bite my tongue for now and wait until I get to play the game Saturday.

Another potential problem though, would we even have enough wiis to make BBrawl are main game?

>___> I also feel like I need to warn you guys.... I learned how to play mk and snake so I can beat all the scrubs who CP marth or gw against me every set.

or kirby?

 

[Cheeseonastick]

Nah man, I took care of that a long time ago. I consistently beat the best Kirby on GB (who's also ranked 2nd overall :O).

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

So wait, are people going to show up this time? <_<

EDIT: new question. was this turned into BBrawl? >.< Or is it still Brawl?

EDITEDIT: Nvm, I can't go. =/

 

[Cheeseonastick]

So wait, are people going to show up this time? <_<

EDIT: new question. was this turned into BBrawl? >.< Or is it still Brawl?

EDITEDIT: Nvm, I can't go. =/

;_;... That sucks.

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

No fair, I miss out on everything v.v grrr.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

omg im so 1337 mlgpro ur all gonna g3t r4p3d scubs cuz im so pro

 

[Cheeseonastick]

:D Can't wait to play metal finally!


Edit: Still didn't get to play metal xD

 

[MuBa]

Had lots of fun guys. Keep 'em coming!