thesage
Smash Hero
Ness' Matchups:
Strong Disadvantage
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff
Fox
Disadvantage
Falco
Peach
Luigi
Even
Samus
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game and Watch
Link
Mario
Pikachu
Captain Falcon
Slight Advantage
Doctor Mario
Young Link
Pichu
Zelda
Ganondorf
Advantage
Kirby
DK
Yoshi
Bowser
Roy
Character Strategies:
VS. Marth - Lots of Marths will stay just outside your SH F-air/DJC F-air range and try to dash dance you for a grab. If you can predict they're going to try this, dash attack where you would normally F-air. (It's really hard to dash out of range of the dash attack. ) You'll catch them and pop them up for a DJC U-air (extremely low %'s) or an easy fulljump F-air, DJC U-air. Careful though, because the counter to this is simply shielding.
~from Reik
He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind
I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik
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VS. Samus - Camp vs. Samus...it helps(and pk fire is good here too...use it on her bombs)...also if Samus is at middle%s and up(60+) and you knock her straight up into the air.....spend some time jugglign her with PK Thunder...she will have a hard time escaping....not as hard as LUIGI, but still a hard time. Just watch out for her bomb jumps.
~from Simna ibn Sind
Pk Fire outprioritizes Samus' full charge shots
~ from indie_dave
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Vs. Ice Climbers - Not only can u PK Fire at ICs but you can also start the fire on their ICE.
~from Simna ibn Sind
If you Pk Fire them Popo can DI out of it, but Nana won't. This will force Popo to save Nana. Take advantage of this.
~ from Delphiki
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Vs. Link - you can fair Link's bombs
~ from indie_dave
It's true that Link has the range and the projectiles in this match, but I think Ness actually deals with spam pretty well. He's fast on the ground, has a good shield-game, and DJCs allow you to manuever around projectiles better than most characters can.
Ness combos the f*ck out of Link, btw. DJC F-air to immediate SH F-air works very well. If you can hit with a DJC U-air at low%s Link will take a LOT of damage. He also might be the easiest character to KO with a DJC F-air -> Bat.
Link can combo Ness decently and absolutely ***** his recovery though, gotta give him that. At least Ness's bat outranges Link's Up + B recovery. You can also use D-tilts to screw up a non-sweetspot hookshot recovery. I'm not sure if a properly timed D-tilt will stop even a sweetspot hookshot.
You can aslo yyg glitch a link that missed his grab.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Captain Falcon - I think CF has a slight advantage on larger stages like FD (yes, even though it's easier to combo him there), normal Stadium, and DL64 while Ness has a slight advantage on the smaller ones (Battlefield, FoD). His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt. ) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Ganon - He does better on the smaller stages, but I wouldn't give him the advantage on any. Maybe YS. Maybe. It's really easy to combo Ganon into F-smash from DJC F-air. His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt.) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Fox - He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind
For Fox, you can start a combo on him at low % best with an uthrow. Uthrow to DCed uair or fair if they DI. If they dont, follow up with any aerial necessary. You can land uthrows by DjCing fair or dair.If they dont DI, hitting with the last spark in the dash attack can also lead to a grab, or any fast attack. Fox is just about the easiest character to juggle with DjCed uairs and utilts. After almost any combo that leaves Fox near you, you can end with a DjCed nair in place.
For edgeguarding, if Fox is above you, any aerial should just about stop him. This may force him to recover while level to the stage. When he does, you can use the dtilt to stop him right at the edge, or a yo-yo. If you release the yo-yo as he touches it, you will pull him up for an ftilt. If you keep charging it, it will have the same effect as a dtilt. After Fox drops below the edge, you can easily hit him with any edgeguarding aeial.
~from Earthbound 360
_____________________________________________________________
Reik's method for chaingrabbing the space animals (works best on FD):
Ok, here's the hardest part: Get a grab. After that, U-throw.
Low %s - If they DI to either side, you can always catch them with a JC grab. No need to DJC U-air or DJC F-air and give them the opportunity to DI out. Just regrab them.
If they don't DI, be careful. Even at 0% they can jump or shine out with good timing. To be safe you can do a perfect DJC U-air*, then react to DI and dash JC grab.
Mid %s - If they DI to either side you have to dash and do a perfect DJC U-air while moving forward. Meaning you have to be holding forward while you double jump, then move to Up for the U-air. It's like a quarter-circle motion. Don't try to C-stick because that's too slow. After the U-air regrab if you think you can or do more U-airs into a B-air. This ends the combo around 85-95% and sets up for edgeguarding. Keep in mind that it doesn't KO.
Note: If they're near an edge after a DJC U-air and within F-smash range... then by all means... bat 'em.
High %s - You shouldn't be able to regrab them to high percents. However, if you get another grab, just U-throw B-air.
*What I call a perfect DJC U-air is when you start the U-air on one of the first few frames after double jumping, and time it so that you hit the ground immediately after the U-air hits the opponent, WITHOUT fastfalling. In this case at lower %s it helps if you hit the Fox as soon/high as possible, so you have more time to react to the DI.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Docter Mario - I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Jigglypuff - Watch out! She can eat your thunder! Try to tailwhip her while recovering and hit yourself back onto the stage. This is, of course, extremely hard. Jigglypuff also is really good at edgegaurding. It is highly recommended to use another character against Jigglypuff.
~from basically everybody on this forum
You can yyg a jigglypuff that missed her rest.
~from thesage
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Y. Link - Y. Link is faster than Link so it's a little harder to get through the run-away-and-throw-sh*t tactic. If you play a defensive fulljump-aerial-spammy Ness then you're going to get destroyed. Edgeguarding is almost the same as the Link matchup.
You can aslo yyg glitch a young link that missed his grab.
~from Reik
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Sheik - I play against my friend who mains Shiek a lot, and I find surprizingly that I can DJC air dodge to get out of the chainthrow after DI'ing all the way one way or the other, the lag on the air dodge does let him grab me again most of the time, but depending on the direction I air dodge, I can fake him out.
I used to get chain grabbed to about 60-80% then he would start juggling me, I find that if this happens you should DJC Down A, it almost always throws the Shieks timing off, and you end up hitting her perfectly with your Step Kick (eh, that's what I call it).
~from Noe3
_________________________________________________________
First Post:
What are Ness' matchups? Who is a definite advantage/disadvantage for him?
I know Marth, Jigglypuff, and Sheik are hard.
I know Bowser is his easiest matchup.
It would also be cool to have some character specific strategies, even if they seem to have no definite advantage over him. I or someone else could turn this into a guide or something.
I'm asking this since I am just about to enter the tournament scene, I'll try to get some vids of me up next weekend.
Please don't just list characters, I would really like some strats. This could be helpful for the rest of us Ness noobs.
Strong Disadvantage
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff
Fox
Disadvantage
Falco
Peach
Luigi
Even
Samus
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game and Watch
Link
Mario
Pikachu
Captain Falcon
Slight Advantage
Doctor Mario
Young Link
Pichu
Zelda
Ganondorf
Advantage
Kirby
DK
Yoshi
Bowser
Roy
Character Strategies:
VS. Marth - Lots of Marths will stay just outside your SH F-air/DJC F-air range and try to dash dance you for a grab. If you can predict they're going to try this, dash attack where you would normally F-air. (It's really hard to dash out of range of the dash attack. ) You'll catch them and pop them up for a DJC U-air (extremely low %'s) or an easy fulljump F-air, DJC U-air. Careful though, because the counter to this is simply shielding.
~from Reik
He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind
I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VS. Samus - Camp vs. Samus...it helps(and pk fire is good here too...use it on her bombs)...also if Samus is at middle%s and up(60+) and you knock her straight up into the air.....spend some time jugglign her with PK Thunder...she will have a hard time escaping....not as hard as LUIGI, but still a hard time. Just watch out for her bomb jumps.
~from Simna ibn Sind
Pk Fire outprioritizes Samus' full charge shots
~ from indie_dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Ice Climbers - Not only can u PK Fire at ICs but you can also start the fire on their ICE.
~from Simna ibn Sind
If you Pk Fire them Popo can DI out of it, but Nana won't. This will force Popo to save Nana. Take advantage of this.
~ from Delphiki
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Link - you can fair Link's bombs
~ from indie_dave
It's true that Link has the range and the projectiles in this match, but I think Ness actually deals with spam pretty well. He's fast on the ground, has a good shield-game, and DJCs allow you to manuever around projectiles better than most characters can.
Ness combos the f*ck out of Link, btw. DJC F-air to immediate SH F-air works very well. If you can hit with a DJC U-air at low%s Link will take a LOT of damage. He also might be the easiest character to KO with a DJC F-air -> Bat.
Link can combo Ness decently and absolutely ***** his recovery though, gotta give him that. At least Ness's bat outranges Link's Up + B recovery. You can also use D-tilts to screw up a non-sweetspot hookshot recovery. I'm not sure if a properly timed D-tilt will stop even a sweetspot hookshot.
You can aslo yyg glitch a link that missed his grab.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Captain Falcon - I think CF has a slight advantage on larger stages like FD (yes, even though it's easier to combo him there), normal Stadium, and DL64 while Ness has a slight advantage on the smaller ones (Battlefield, FoD). His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt. ) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Ganon - He does better on the smaller stages, but I wouldn't give him the advantage on any. Maybe YS. Maybe. It's really easy to combo Ganon into F-smash from DJC F-air. His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt.) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Fox - He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind
For Fox, you can start a combo on him at low % best with an uthrow. Uthrow to DCed uair or fair if they DI. If they dont, follow up with any aerial necessary. You can land uthrows by DjCing fair or dair.If they dont DI, hitting with the last spark in the dash attack can also lead to a grab, or any fast attack. Fox is just about the easiest character to juggle with DjCed uairs and utilts. After almost any combo that leaves Fox near you, you can end with a DjCed nair in place.
For edgeguarding, if Fox is above you, any aerial should just about stop him. This may force him to recover while level to the stage. When he does, you can use the dtilt to stop him right at the edge, or a yo-yo. If you release the yo-yo as he touches it, you will pull him up for an ftilt. If you keep charging it, it will have the same effect as a dtilt. After Fox drops below the edge, you can easily hit him with any edgeguarding aeial.
~from Earthbound 360
_____________________________________________________________
Reik's method for chaingrabbing the space animals (works best on FD):
Ok, here's the hardest part: Get a grab. After that, U-throw.
Low %s - If they DI to either side, you can always catch them with a JC grab. No need to DJC U-air or DJC F-air and give them the opportunity to DI out. Just regrab them.
If they don't DI, be careful. Even at 0% they can jump or shine out with good timing. To be safe you can do a perfect DJC U-air*, then react to DI and dash JC grab.
Mid %s - If they DI to either side you have to dash and do a perfect DJC U-air while moving forward. Meaning you have to be holding forward while you double jump, then move to Up for the U-air. It's like a quarter-circle motion. Don't try to C-stick because that's too slow. After the U-air regrab if you think you can or do more U-airs into a B-air. This ends the combo around 85-95% and sets up for edgeguarding. Keep in mind that it doesn't KO.
Note: If they're near an edge after a DJC U-air and within F-smash range... then by all means... bat 'em.
High %s - You shouldn't be able to regrab them to high percents. However, if you get another grab, just U-throw B-air.
*What I call a perfect DJC U-air is when you start the U-air on one of the first few frames after double jumping, and time it so that you hit the ground immediately after the U-air hits the opponent, WITHOUT fastfalling. In this case at lower %s it helps if you hit the Fox as soon/high as possible, so you have more time to react to the DI.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Docter Mario - I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Jigglypuff - Watch out! She can eat your thunder! Try to tailwhip her while recovering and hit yourself back onto the stage. This is, of course, extremely hard. Jigglypuff also is really good at edgegaurding. It is highly recommended to use another character against Jigglypuff.
~from basically everybody on this forum
You can yyg a jigglypuff that missed her rest.
~from thesage
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Y. Link - Y. Link is faster than Link so it's a little harder to get through the run-away-and-throw-sh*t tactic. If you play a defensive fulljump-aerial-spammy Ness then you're going to get destroyed. Edgeguarding is almost the same as the Link matchup.
You can aslo yyg glitch a young link that missed his grab.
~from Reik
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vs. Sheik - I play against my friend who mains Shiek a lot, and I find surprizingly that I can DJC air dodge to get out of the chainthrow after DI'ing all the way one way or the other, the lag on the air dodge does let him grab me again most of the time, but depending on the direction I air dodge, I can fake him out.
I used to get chain grabbed to about 60-80% then he would start juggling me, I find that if this happens you should DJC Down A, it almost always throws the Shieks timing off, and you end up hitting her perfectly with your Step Kick (eh, that's what I call it).
~from Noe3
_________________________________________________________
First Post:
What are Ness' matchups? Who is a definite advantage/disadvantage for him?
I know Marth, Jigglypuff, and Sheik are hard.
I know Bowser is his easiest matchup.
It would also be cool to have some character specific strategies, even if they seem to have no definite advantage over him. I or someone else could turn this into a guide or something.
I'm asking this since I am just about to enter the tournament scene, I'll try to get some vids of me up next weekend.
Please don't just list characters, I would really like some strats. This could be helpful for the rest of us Ness noobs.