NO KOAST v3 - 3/13-14, Wichita, KS

[DMG]

Dude SR in Pools, let's plank each other if we meet. K?

ALSO!

In Pools, depending on who all is in there, I am DOWN for crazy ******** matches. Judgement Match, Captain Falcon Dittos on Warioware, you name it and as long as it is something relatively fair for both players (I'm not gonna do Falco dittos with someone, or ask you to Wario ditto me lol), I will accept it and do it with style. So if you meet me in pools and have some weird request like Jigglypuff Dittos on Hyrule or Double Ganon on Hanenbow, don't be afraid to ask me.

Kosmos knows, we did Falcon dittos on Warioware lol. I would have won if the floor didn't disappear.

 

[fragbait]

BTW, DMG. NK1 rematch, me and you?

 

[DMG]

Sure. done

 

[Dekar173]

DMG $5 CF ditto?

 

[fragbait]

@DMG
Hella. Looking forward to it bro.

 

[UTDZac]

Dekar, $9 MM (+ hug) next time we meet!?

 

[DMG]

Dekar, Wario Ditto MM? $5?

If you accept that, I accept the Falcon Ditto too.

 

[MJG]

I accept waffles...sort of suicide on my part ;o

 

[Dekar173]

@Zac- I'm down :D Who you teaming with?

@DMG- Alright heh. Wario ditto will be gay as aids, maybe we can do dair > SDI infinite chain ? ;P

@mjg- I will MM you! It can give me some much needed tink exp o.o

 

[MJG]

Dekar: $10!!!! MM!!! Lol.

MM's at No Koast v3 So far: Waffles and Dekar.

Will accept a few more.

 

[DMG]

$10 MM the legendary DMG?

I accept for you. Don't worry, I got this.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

DMG we shall plank till the sun sets

 

[Typ_Ex]

people shouldn't even be grabbing ledges in the first minute or so cause they're damage is too low.

 

[Fino]

people shouldn't even be grabbing ledges in the first minute or so cause they're damage is too low.

I've done it.


~Fino

 

[Steeler]

people shouldn't even be grabbing ledges in the first minute or so cause they're damage is too low.

it's funny you, of all people, would say that after nk2...

also, applying a ledgegrab rule to only MK is stupid. apply it to all characters.

 

[The Real Inferno]

ROB should be exempt. He's never on the ledge.....


ever.

 

[Typ_Ex]

it's funny you, of all people, would say that after nk2...

also, applying a ledgegrab rule to only MK is stupid. apply it to all characters.

my damage was too low. although in retrospect, i suppose its funny i say it cause i start every life w/ the chain throw...

 

[CT Chia]

* Ledge Grab Limit Rule

* Singles Limit - 40 Grabs
* Doubles Limit - 50 Grabs

Ok sooooo... let me get this straight.

It has been deemed unfair by the TO for a player to grab the ledge more than 40 times in a single eight minute 3 stock match.

Before I even get onto that part, where do you get 50 from with doubles? Is it you add up both players on a team and if it's over 50 you lose? So 40 is ok in singles, but in doubles - where it is harder to ledgecamp with having two opponents - you're only allowed 25? Yea that makes sense. IF you HAVE TO use a ledge grab rule, I don't see how you can allow any number for doubles besides singles x2 without making no sense because simply, its two players on said team.

As for the 40 ledge grab rule. I HOPE it only applies in a timed out match. I don't want to legit beat someone and have them go, oh you grabbed the ledge 41 times, I win. That's only if the rule really needs to be in place.

Now 40, why have you come to such an arbitrary number? In a timed out match of 8 minutes in length with 40 ledge grabs that means you are allowed to grab the ledge once every 12 seconds. Ledge invincibility lasts what, approximately a second? 1.5 seconds tops. So seeing that you are vulnerable for around 11 seconds between the little spurts of invincibility - whats so broken about that?

Furthermore, what makes it so 40 ledge grabs is fine, but not 41? Why is that 41st ledge grab illegal. There is already a no stalling rule in the rules (enforced by judges rule im assuming) so what other problem is there? Playing on the ledge is playing safe, not playing unfair. There are many counters to it, and a lot of characters also suck on the ledge. Take ROB for example. ROBs are normally seen ledge camping and he's not too bad with it for the attacks in his arsenal like fair nair laser and gyro, but to be honest it's not a good situation for ROB to be on the ledge at all. It's incredibly hard to get off the ledge with how slow and predictable all of his options are. If you're against a smart opponent and you're without a floating smashville platform or enough gas to fly under to the other side, you're going to get hit as you come off the ledge. The reason some people are able to abuse ledge camping is because their opponent doesn't know how to counter it, it's no different than MK's nado really. Sure it sucks sometimes, but there's plenty of ways to get around it that the opposing player should know.

Besides being forced to stay on the ledge (which is against the players will as with a ledge grab rule your being forced to get off against your will into a situation which will surely get you hit), there are problems like if you shield an attack near the ledge your pushback will force you to grab the ledge. What if I'm at 40 and don't want to grab the ledge and that happens? Grabbing the ledge is such a common thing that to limit it just hampers the design of the game altogether. There is already built in mechanics for stopping the ledge camping where it's needed, with tether grabs. Tether grabs have 0 lag and therefore you can only grab the ledge that way 5 times before you are no longer able to. As for regular ledge grabs, your not able to get off for a bit with the lag you get when grabbing.

 

[DMG]

Chibo, the 50 is per person lol. That seems fair because in doubles there are moments where you might need to grab the edge slightly more for whatever reason (like it might be more unsafe in Doubles to quickly try to get back to the stage after 1-2 grabs from getting knocked off, so you wait for an opening/for your partner maybe to help).

"The reason some people are able to abuse ledge camping is because their opponent doesn't know how to counter it, it's no different than MK's nado really."

Ok then. I propose a challenge to you sir:

I will pick MK/G&W, you pick ROB, and I will plank you for 5 minutes straight. If you can prove that you have a reliable way to not only damage me, but to stop me from planking altogether, I will give you $5. If you cannot prove that, I get $5. When I say reliable, I am talking about a move/strategy that forces me to stop planking even if I plank near flawlessly. Stopping me from planking is making me take a lot of nearly guaranteed damage that I cannot avoid unless I proceed to remove myself from that situation completely.

If you can prove that you know how to get around it, and demonstrate so for us, I'll give you the money no questions asked.

Just be glad I'm not asking you to pick Falco, cause there's no way in hell you are stopping planking with that character lol.

 

[CT Chia]

I'll do that challenge with your GaW. Can't do it against MK. He's really the only character imo that has an unbeatable ledge camp with 6 jumps his up and 3 other recovering high priority specials and 2 glides. You're definition of it all with nearly guaranteed damage and removing you from the situation completely is strict, but I'm down.

But yea lol @ Falco beating a ledge camper. Obviously some characters do better than others in countering it, but Falco is just like wow wtf do I do lol. Then again, no different than Pika on Fox. There's bad matchups out there. I'm sure Falco can get through some, if not a lot of characters, but not the great ledge campers like GaW and MK.

Also, ledge grab rule only applies if the timer is ran out right?

btw I'll also likely need a teammate
Only fellow doubles gods need apply lol

 

[The Real Inferno]

I almost want to team with you so I can run double ROB which is the single worst thing I think I ever experienced in teams before.

 

[Affinity]

Stuff and Things

That's why I said that rule is debatable.

Spoiler

Honestly, I just threw random numbers up there to start discussion lol

I'm open to anything reasonable.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Whatever is lower than 110 ledge grabs. God Dphat is gay lol

 

[Typ_Ex]

Ok sooooo... let me get this straight.
As for the 40 ledge grab rule. I HOPE it only applies in a timed out match. I don't want to legit beat someone and have them go, oh you grabbed the ledge 41 times, I win.

40+ ledge grabs + legit win? impossible. You EC'ers are nothing but campy *****es.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

This is exactly why ledge grab rules are dumb...

It's like "stalling". It takes two to tango and furthermore there's really never any legit instances of people doing the "bannable kind of stalling"... it's just a silly rule that is there for no reason and probably shouldn't even exist.


If you ARE going to institute a rule for whatever reason, then it should definitely be for EVERYONE and not "just MK" because that would be ********. It should also be a lot more than 40 / 50 grabs...

...but again, I don't think there should be a rule to begin with.

 

[DMG]

MetalMusicMan, I will offer you the same deal that I offered Chibo.

I will pick MK/G&W, and plank continuously for 5 minutes. If you can reliably stop that as Falco, I will give you $5 on the spot. If you cannot, you pay me $5. If you think planking isn't worthy of at least a limit of some sort, then you should have no problem accepting and proving me why it's not a problem. If you think that it is bannable/warranting at least a limit, come up with a better proposal than what we have on the table right now (40-50 edge grab limit). Having this "bad" rule is a lot better than not having anything to stop planking if it warrants the need for a rule.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Falco is pretty bad against planking, I'd feel better accepting as DeDeDe or MK, but I wouldn't mind playing you in that fashion regardless of my characters really. It'd be a fun exercise

I don't do money matches or bet or whatever, though. So we can both keep our 5 dollars

Furthermore, if you did beat me (very likely), I can guarantee that I wouldn't have a problem with your methods. "Gay stuff" does not bother me in the least and I generally find it to be very tolerable to play against and a perfectly acceptable strategy, whether I win or lose.

At any rate, if you want to try this I think it would be fun and hope to see you there.

 

[Steeler]

planking is ridiculous

 

[DMG]

but I have no problem making money off of it.

 

[Steeler]

i think at a certain point, you have to maintain the integrity of the game. i know it's a vague concept and a weak argument (it's certainly not the only one out there) but...where is the true skill in planking (aside from like, MK v MK planking :\)? you neutralize or eliminate so many important facets of the game.

 

[CT Chia]

tbh i think you should just do away with the ledge grab rule all together and instead just have a no stalling by judges rule in effect.

for instance, ledge camping when the opponent isnt even actively trying to get you off the ledge or isnt near the ledge is completely different than being stuck on the ledge because you arent able to get up safely because of your opponent.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

tbh i think you should just do away with the ledge grab rule all together and instead just have a no stalling by judges rule in effect.

for instance, ledge camping when the opponent isnt even actively trying to get you off the ledge or isnt near the ledge is completely different than being stuck on the ledge because you arent able to get up safely because of your opponent.

I find that this sort of abstract "rule" is much better than a set ledge grab limit, but I still maintain that stalling generally "takes two" so even with a rule like that, the judges are still usually grasping at nothing. Plus it can lead to a lot of bias issues.

I don't think that the game's integrity is in any danger from planking... I've yet to see any evidence of planking that didn't look like both players were mutually participating in the stalling.

For instance, everyone made so much fuss about Dojo vs DEHF or whatever... I watched all of those matches and I didn't see an issue with any of them or the outcome.

 

[fragbait]

tbh i think you should just do away with the ledge grab rule all together and instead just have a no stalling by judges rule in effect.

for instance, ledge camping when the opponent isnt even actively trying to get you off the ledge or isnt near the ledge is completely different than being stuck on the ledge because you arent able to get up safely because of your opponent.

Do you realize how many judges we'll need? Plus, there's no way to fairly enforce that by judge rule, and then, even if we can, how will we penalize? Game Loss? Okay, I'm a judge, I want (insert player here) to lose. Grab the ledge 1 time and they're stalling, game loss. No way dude.

 

[Dart]

is ledge-camping really that bad in brawl? :/

 

[AlphaZealot]

tbh i think you should just do away with the ledge grab rule all together and instead just have a no stalling by judges rule in effect.

Did you learn nothing from Genesis and COT4? The Judges rule would only work at a tournament with <50 people and a ledge grab rule will only work if it is <40 grabs per game.

The irony here is mainly ROB mains hate the ledge grab rule cause after MK it affects them the most. They hate it cause they have to change their strategy, and yet that is the exact same thing they are asking MK mains to do when they say "no planking".

I've run now 5 tournaments with the edge grab rule at <30, including EVO2k9. There were no problems at any tournaments and no one planked.

 

[Fino]

Did you learn nothing from Genesis and COT4? The Judges rule would only work at a tournament with <50 people and a ledge grab rule will only work if it is <40 grabs per game.

The irony here is mainly ROB mains hate the ledge grab rule cause after MK it affects them the most. They hate it cause they have to change their strategy, and yet that is the exact same thing they are asking MK mains to do when they say "no planking".

I've run now 5 tournaments with the edge grab rule at <30, including EVO2k9. There were no problems at any tournaments and no one planked.

Not taking a side here, you also realize characters like rob have terrible ledge-to-stage options. Therefore, attacking from the ledge and re-grabbing can be a necessity for recovering safely more than a stalling strategy.

Honestly, I don't want to lose a match because I had to grab the edge a lot because my opponent was good at covering my options... but at the same time I don't want to be planked for lack of options of being able beat it. lol XD.


~Fino

 

[Dekar173]

All I got out of MMM was that he doesn't understand how gay it is to play against a planking opponent, and that he's not up for putting his money where his mouth is :D


I play Diddy, who probably has some of the BEST options against planking, and I still find it atrociously gay to go up against, primarily because it turns the match from a semi-even playfield into player 1 stalling with next to no consequences.

 

[Typ_Ex]

Did you learn nothing from Genesis and COT4? The Judges rule would only work at a tournament with <50 people and a ledge grab rule will only work if it is <40 grabs per game.

The irony here is mainly ROB mains hate the ledge grab rule cause after MK it affects them the most. They hate it cause they have to change their strategy, and yet that is the exact same thing they are asking MK mains to do when they say "no planking".

I've run now 5 tournaments with the edge grab rule at <30, including EVO2k9. There were no problems at any tournaments and no one planked.

<3 alpha zealot and i dont even know you. Wouldn't it just be easy for rob to just go above your opponent? kind of like how snake does?

 

[Cook]

Falco is pretty bad against planking, I'd feel better accepting as DeDeDe or MK, but I wouldn't mind playing you in that fashion regardless of my characters really. It'd be a fun exercise

I don't do money matches or bet or whatever, though. So we can both keep our 5 dollars

Furthermore, if you did beat me (very likely), I can guarantee that I wouldn't have a problem with your methods. "Gay stuff" does not bother me in the least and I generally find it to be very tolerable to play against and a perfectly acceptable strategy, whether I win or lose.

At any rate, if you want to try this I think it would be fun and hope to see you there.

Wow, Will, you're ********. If he wins this contest with you that will pretty much mean that there's nothing you can do against a good planker, which would mean it's a broken strategy. You already think that you will lose. Yet you still don't think it's a problem? You've never played against someone that could and did plank well. You don't know anything about it. Here you have one of the gayest players in the world, someone who DOES know all about planking, and he WANTS it banned by an enforceable rule. Shouldn't that tell you something? He wants it banned because he knows firsthand just how gay it is, and this is coming from ONE OF THE WORLD'S GAYEST PLAYERS.

Not taking a side here, you also realize characters like rob have terrible ledge-to-stage options. Therefore, attacking from the ledge and re-grabbing can be a necessity for recovering safely more than a stalling strategy.

Honestly, I don't want to lose a match because I had to grab the edge a lot because my opponent was good at covering my options... but at the same time I don't want to be planked for lack of options of being able beat it. lol XD.


~Fino

You're not gonna end up violating the rule just because you have to re-grab the ledge a few times to get to the stage. Even if you did, you would never know it. Why is that? Because nobody would look to see how many times you grabbed the ledge unless they thought that you were planking to begin with. If you only abused the ledge to get back to the stage safely then they aren't gonna be like "OMG, check how many times you grabbed the ledge, you cheater!"

 

[AlphaZealot]

Well people don't like to think of NEW things to do. They are perfectly happy with how they use to do it, and yet they demand MK's learn to do something new while they are not subject to the same thing.

I guarantee none of you grab the edge even 2/3rds as much as you think. In all likelihood, unless you spend your entire game on the edge INTENTIONALLY, you will not have over 10-15 grabs in a game (this includes ROB, but the ROBS will intentionally chill out on the edge, but they don't want you to know that), and even that is incredibly high. Almost every character will have less than 10 edge grabs in an average game. Go ahead and start checking. Do it. I've been saying this for months, I've even caught Overswarm in this very fallacy (he though he had more then double what he actually had one game, which was 7 edge grabs, and he even didn't believe the game so I went back and watched the video, and wouldn't you know, just 7 edge grabs!).

I'm going to bet that almost every person who is against this rule is likewise not checking their edge grabs after every game they play. They probably also don't realize that recovering to the edge doesn't have to be your only option (Snake example works).