NO KOAST v3 - 3/13-14, Wichita, KS

[Fino]

stuff

I run to the edge, tether drop cancel a few times / do stuff in between.... that's 6 extra ledge grabs =/ lol - worst john ever XD


~Fino

 

[Cook]

I run to the edge, tether drop cancel a few times / do stuff in between.... that's 6 extra ledge grabs =/ lol - worst john ever XD


~Fino

Ok... 10-15+6=21 tops. That's half of the proposed limit, so I don't really see how you are making a good point at all. Still, I bet that you do average 10-15 grabs per game, regardless of what you may think. Like AZ said, check sometime. Olimar especially tends to not grab the ledge very much.

 

[Airborne]

since kentucky is looking into this... i might as well... who knows?

 

[Typ_Ex]

this is what ive been trying to say. last time ive accused an MK of planking it was out of curiosity and the # was 13....

people dont grab the ledge as much as you think people...start looking after matches

*edit*
fino you've never intentionally ran to a ledge just to grab it.

 

[Cook]

I dunno, it sounds like maybe 40 is too many. How about 30?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

lol Cookie, you're like the most ******** person ever when it comes to anything... so I'm not sure where you get off, lmfao.

Anyway, my point was that DMG would probably beat me and 90% of the community with any strategy, so him "beating me with planking" doesn't really prove anything at all. It's not evidence of anything. Furthermore I don't ever bet or money match anyone, so me "not putting my money where my mouth is" isn't the issue either...

You're also missing the part where I have no problem with someone winning by planking...

...you also realize characters like rob have terrible ledge-to-stage options. Therefore, attacking from the ledge and re-grabbing can be a necessity for recovering safely more than a stalling strategy.

Exactly, stuff like this is exactly why a strict ledge-grab limit, especially one that is so low, seems unnecessarily inhibiting.

There's just too much gray area. If you really want to "ban planking and stalling", then fine, whatever, but I do not think that a set number of ledge grabs is any more efficient or practical than a "judges ruling"... which is saying a lot since that is also not a very effective method.

Plenty of characters have perfectly fine options against planking. True, some are terrible, but plenty of viable characters have no issues combating planking. MK, Snake, Pikachu, ICs, Diddy, etc. all have no real issues with planking.

It's not just the high tiers either, any character with a fairly versatile projectile can do decently. Characters like Falco who cannot change the trajectory of their projectile AND have bad recoveries are kind of screwed... but that's just character options... if they like to plank, counter pick your opponent's strategy by picking a character who is good against it.

Falco is TERRIBLE against planking and I main him... I'm not on some kind of mission, as you would imply, to keep planking in for my own benefit just because MK is my THIRD best character... it just seems like there are plenty of characters who have viable counters to planking so why is counter picking it not considered enough of a solution?

This is all the same issue that I have with the DeDeDe infinite... there is no reason that we should make a rule to ban it just because it messes up DK's game... counter picking is part of the game.

 

[DMG]

Actually Diddy's not that great at stopping planking. I mean he has more tools that most characters to start with, but he still falls prey to it IMO.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Actually Diddy's not that great at stopping planking. I mean he has more tools that most characters to start with, but he still falls prey to it IMO.

Out of curiosity, do you think that the other characters I listed honestly have any problem whatsoever with planking? There are others that I didn't list that can do fine against it, but I hope you get the point.

I hope I'm not coming off as a too much of a douche with that statement, or any others (except to Cookie, we give each other **** all the time cause we're butt buddies ).

I'm just curious as to your reasoning... and it would seem that if even 5 or 10 or so characters had absolutely no problem with planking at all, there would be no reason to ban it from that alone.

I know that there are at least 5 that absolutely don't...

 

[Affinity]

I'm taking off the ledge grab rule for now. I'll put something back up when a general consensus is come to.

 

[DMG]

Well Diddy has a dynamic projectile, but all he can do is throw it at you. AKA you grab it, threat neutralized pretty much or you dodge it correctly, threat neutralized. Peanuts you can break with aerials or plank correctly and just grab the edge as they pass/don't rise high enough to get hit by them. Diddy as a character by himself, using only aerials/no projectiles, is quite bad at stopping planking. If you neutralize his projectiles in that situation, he almost becomes like Falco when it comes to anti planking. He has no strong/fast/good anti planking Dair, he doesn't move fast enough in the air to try and fool the MK with a surprise horizontal aerial (Bair, Fair), he's left with not a whole lot. G&W planks Diddy in a similar manner. If you grab the banana when needed, you can call it game.

IC's do have trouble with Planking, certainly from MK. Blizzard won't reach from onstage if you plank correctly, and Ice Blocks are fairly easy to avoid or Uair. They also have a problem with MK/Pit Gliding under the stage when need be when planking/running away.

Pikachu does ok, like his projectile covers a lot of area near the edge, but the big issue with trying to use that to reliable stop MK from planking is that it's limited to staying near the edge basically. If you just shoot the thunder jolt balls at MK, the angle they fly towards you at does not make them hard to avoid at all. That and if you do have them cling to the stage, MK can stay near the edge but hover out a bit more horizontally, he can time an airdodge/edge grab at the right time, and Pikachu suffers enough lag where he can't try to use the attack rapid fire in an attempt to stop you. Furthermore, pressuring MK with Pikachu by moving after you shoot the Thunder Jolt in that once he avoids that and dissuades you from approaching him head on, you are now out of position to try and punish him. Shooting Thunder Jolts just by itself IMO is not good enough to stop planking. Pika's best try is to do that and try to go chase him afterwards with some additional pressure, but this throws off the strategy of trying to use Thunder Jolt against planking.

Snake is debatable for now. What I will say is that for G&W, you can plank Snake VERY well as that character. Grenades are almost never an issue. You can Uair them, Upb through them, even Upb boost them away. Side B you can Attack/Upb through, same for Usmash/C4 attempt. Snake also struggles trying to do something like grenade drop/pickup/grab edge with invincibility as grenade explodes since G&W can Uair the dropped grenade, Uair your body before you can grab the edge and throw everything off, and because if he reads it he can Upb as you grab the edge, land on stage without lag, and run to the other edge.

MK it's slightly harder to plank Snake in that you can't just Upb through his grenades/projectiles and use Uair to fool with most of his options. MK has more variety when planking Snake though. He can plank kind of like what he would do for Pikachu sometimes, where he hovers near the edge but horizontal to it instead of vertical. Snake has the same issues with trying to hit him, while MK has more options from there on how to dodge what Snake decided to do.


There aren't many characters out there that honestly have a viable shot at stopping good planking. I'm talking about MK and G&W basically. Pit is not comparable to them in planking overall IMO. He doesn't have the same strong options as G&W and MK do. His Uair you can SDI out of and still be near him, he doesn't have any invincible Upb/extremely safe dodging options, he has to be careful of not getting hit out of his Upb, he has more lag on important moves, etc. He is still good at it, but G&W and MK by far do it the best.

Affinity, that's fine if you have it off for now. I'm being honest with you though when I say that I strongly recommend having an edge grab limit of some sort in place. I know most of Texas that is interested in coming to this feels the same way (Dojo, Gnes+Razer maybe?, Dphat, Lee, UTD Zac, etc). Like I don't want you to cater to OOS or a specific state, but honestly we would most likely be the people to do that in the first place and most of us agree unanimously that you would be better off with a limit in place. Just a thought.

 

[Fogo]

Gnes lost to light when he planked hen he shouldn't have, an example for diddy.

M 2 K basically planked meep and beat him when he wouldn't have, an example for ic's.

Snake can get around it when the mk does it wrong, but if done correctly he'll still fall to it. Then again you can say that with any character.


Anyway, Hyyyyyyyype.

 

[Dojo]

Just a little food for thought, when I camped out Larry on SV at Genesis I had 34 ledge grabs on an 8 minute timer without ever intentionally planking. Against Sk92 at AG on BF I also had in the 30s without ever intentionally planking.

I was camping but I never had the intention of planking and I was in mid 30s both times on an 8 minute timer. Just throwing that out there.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Just a little food for thought, when I camped out Larry on SV at Genesis I had 34 ledge grabs on an 8 minute timer without ever intentionally planking. Against Sk92 at AG on BF I also had in the 30s without ever intentionally planking.

I was camping but I never had the intention of planking and I was in mid 30s both times on an 8 minute timer. Just throwing that out there.

Yeah... If there was a limit, anything much under 50 would be way too low.

 

[Dojo]

40-45 imo would be good if you intend to actually stop planking. A person can still camp very well and take a match to time with under 40 grabs, but it still gives the opponent a fighting chance to beat that out. Both of those matches I had were very close the entire time.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

pikachu also has thunder to stop plankers, as well as his speed.

 

[DMG]

Thunder is a risky try. If you aren't retreating Thunder onto the stage from offstage, MK can try to hit you while you are vulnerable offstage.

Pikachu is also fairly fast, but pure options wise concerning his aerials he will have trouble stopping MK. He's kinda like Wario, sure he can move around fast, but he doesn't honestly have the range to combat MK there in that kind of situation.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

its risky, but its another tool. also b reversed thunders back onstage are the only way to do it, just jumping off is asking to get whooped. also dropping a sweetspot thunder down low is very risky but can get them off the ledge. not really foolproof but they are options

 

[MetalMusicMan]

How is Thunder risky?

Pikachu should be full hop or double jump thundering and then retreating back to the stage anyway... like... why wouldn't he do that if he was going to thunder?

Obviously it would be risky if he tried to sweetspot / blue thunder... but why would he even bother when he can just fling a lightning bolt down the ledge / the entire vertical length of the screen...

Pika really shouldn't be flinging himself vulnerably off stage if the player is smart... if it's against planking, why would he ever do anything but just spam neutral B or full hop / double jump thunder and retreat back to the stage before he is in range of MK?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Diddy has a lot more options then you guys think. After losing to Forward's Pit over a year ago cause of edge camping I spent many days thinking and working on counter-planking strategys vs: ROB, Pit, and MK.

-Popgun
-Caught peanuts = projectile that gets thrown faster then nanas and has brief stun, so unlike nanas you can use a peanut and throw it down on a planker and they won't catch it because of how fast it moves. Simply follow with an air attack during the brief stun frames. It takes timing but is easy. If the peanut hits, you get a hit. You can do the same thing with a nana but it is more risky because bananas move slower and are easier to catch.
-Bananas, obviously, you can throw them down, you can throw them from the side after shooting peanuts so that peanuts and a banana converge on the edge at around the same time, you can z drop them, you can pull them out and arc two with your down b or you can arc 1 while you have a banana in hand and follow it with a plethera of options
-The one I don't see any diddy do except me: edge canceled Side-B Kicks with banana in hand. Not only does Diddy's foot outprioritize MK's uair but you have a banana in your hand and you refresh all your jumps/side B because you touched the edge, which means you can nana > diddy hump gimp MK. Its pretty technical but I've landed it a few times.

 

[DallasPhat]

SEE ledge grab limit is stupid just take it off .

 

[Teh Future]

lol this is so gay I quit brawl

Seriously just throw in a rule so texas doesn't cry and plank to "prove a point" its not like its going to affect anything ever anyways

 

[Trent]

I usually wouldn't care either way and would just go with what the majority says.

..But DMG, master of playing gay, wants Planking to stop, and has an idea of how to get rid of it. I'm up for whatever he says about ledge grab limits and the such.

 

[DallasPhat]

Ledge grab limit stupid.. to be honest the only time I would plank is if I'm teaming with lee but I don't even think Lee attending (he might though... lol). But yeah don't worry about the LGL so much Bobby it's not like you're going to go far enough in the bracket to actually play me . (Anyways bobby only complaining about LGL since his wario doesn't need a ledge to run time out).

 

[MetalMusicMan]

lol this is so gay I quit brawl

Seriously just throw in a rule so texas doesn't cry and plank to "prove a point" its not like its going to affect anything ever anyways

I frown on such hallow practices :\

Ledge grab limit stupid.. to be honest the only time I would plank is if I'm teaming with lee but I don't even think Lee attending (he might though... lol). But yeah don't worry about the LGL so much Bobby it's not like you're going to go far enough in the bracket to actually play me . (Anyways bobby only complaining about LGL since his wario doesn't need a ledge to run time out).

Thank you.


Ledge grab limits are totally pointless from what I have seen...


Also I <3 me a DPHAT!!!!!!!

 

[Fogo]

Youz a *** Dphat

 

[CT Chia]

Did you learn nothing from Genesis and COT4? The Judges rule would only work at a tournament with <50 people and a ledge grab rule will only work if it is <40 grabs per game.

The irony here is mainly ROB mains hate the ledge grab rule cause after MK it affects them the most. They hate it cause they have to change their strategy, and yet that is the exact same thing they are asking MK mains to do when they say "no planking".

I've run now 5 tournaments with the edge grab rule at <30, including EVO2k9. There were no problems at any tournaments and no one planked.

This post and others is awful. You're just out on this ROB vendetta. Why, cause ROB beats Diddy?

Saying ROB is affected the most after MK. Pffft... I thought GaW was clearly the 2nd best ledge camper out there (not saying thats what I think but that's what most ppl tend to say)

Did I not learn from CoT4 and Genesis?
CoT4 was a MK v a Peach on Norfair. lol ok, Norfair banned, lesson learned. I haven't had Norfair legal since that tourney.
Genesis - Dojo jumped a lot. That's it. He said it himself his grabs were in the 30s. There's something called inherently bad matchups. Same thing with Plank vs Dapuffster at Apex. He jumped a lot. What are we supposed to do, limit ledge grabs, jumps, and air time so much until Gdorf is a viable character? lol ok

As for the judges rule I said. I don't like that either, I hate it, however - it's more legit than a ledge grab rule. I'm against all opinionated rules. But if it was used at Genesis - if Larry was pissed during the match about what Dojo was doing - he could pause the match, call over a judge, and have them watch the rest. That's how it works. Have like 4 stalling judges at this event, there wont be more than 4 matches at any given time that need it. But even still, how was Dojo v Larry bad? What would a anti stalling judge have told Dojo? Uhhhh.... stop jumping? lol Wtf.


Also, I don't even run anti stalling or ledge grab rules at MY events. Now I'm a ROB so I'm sure I HAVE To rely on this stuff right? Not a single person has complained about me camping at any of my events.

FIno said whats correct as well. Certain chareacters have AWFUL off the ledge options. ROB is one of them. Facing any somewhat intelligent player it should be impossible for me to get off the ledge and onto the stage without taking damage from an attack unless there is the aid of a smashville platform (and similar things), or having enough gas to fly under the stage to the other side. I have to sort of ledge camp a bit to wait for my opponent to mess up so I can use the opportunity to get back on the stage.

There's still so much more to be said but this is fine for now.

 

[Typ_Ex]

Facing any somewhat intelligent player it should be impossible for me to get off the ledge and onto the stage without taking damage from an attack unless there is the aid of a smashville platform (and similar things), or having enough gas to fly under the stage to the other side. I have to sort of ledge camp a bit to wait for my opponent to mess up so I can use the opportunity to get back on the stage.

There's still so much more to be said but this is fine for now.

Couldn't you just use that gas to go away and up in a snake like fashion to get back on?

 

[TP]

"If any game in a set goes to time, both players start their next set with a game loss."

Problem solved.

I'm kidding.

 

[Cook]

Chibo, what did I say? First of all, there is NO WAY that grabbing the ledge a few times in your effort to get back on stage is going to bring you anywhere NEAR the limit. Second, you actually have to CHECK your ledgegrabs to be penalized. That means whoever you're playing with has to think that you are planking bad enough to check after the math is over. If all you're trying to do is get back to the stage then there's no reason for them to ever check how many times you grabbed the ledge.

I think that in addition to the ledge grab limit the other person should have to warn you that he thinks you're planking. This way you have a warning that your opponent plans to check how many times you grabbed after the match. Of course, you can just ignore this warning if you think you won't break the limit. The good thing is, though, that you can not have to worry about planking if all you're doing is trying to get back to the ledge because your opponent has to accuse you of planking, and if all you're doing is trying to get back onstage then he won't have anything to accuse you of. Even if he did, though, you PROBABLY still aren't going to break the limit.

And yeah, Dojo did grab the ledge 34 times against DEHF. But you know what? That was the gayest ****ing match I've ever watched. They timed out on their SECOND STOCK. I don't know how someone could possibly camp harder if they didn't even get to their last stock, so if that sort of match could still happen with a 40 grab limit then I don't think there would even be a point in having a limit if it were any higher.

 

[DMG]

Dphat dawg you are lying HARD lol.

Also AZ, if UTD Zac comes I want you to try and stop his planking. He's fairly good at doing it to Diddy.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

You're such a whiner Cookie, jesus. You find something new to complain about and try to get banned every 5 minutes.

That match wasn't even bad at all. They were both enabling planking so there's nothing about that match that gives any proof of planking being a problem. It wasn't like one of them was planking and the other couldn't do anything, they were both just camping and not doing anything. I don't see anything wrong with both of them deciding to play REALLY cautious considering what was on the line.

And "giving a warning that you're going to call someone for planking"? lmfao. That's so laughable. "HEY, STOP NOT LETTING ME HIT YOU OR I'LL TELL ON YOU!!!"


Man Cookie, you really know how to keep the spirit of competition alive, lmfao.

 

[CT Chia]

and what if that person gives u the warning after u hit 40? this warning can't b proven. at that point u might as well have the person call over a judge to watch the rest of the match if stalling is suspected.

also plank v puff ended on second stock as well. no fuss was caused over that either at the tourney unlike at genesis. it was a lot worse imo too. go search it on utube, its there

 

[Cook]

You're such a whiner Cookie, jesus.

That match wasn't even bad at all. They were both enabling planking so there's nothing about that match that gives any proof to planking being a problem. It wasn't like one of them was planking and the other couldn't do anything, they were both just camping and not doing anything.

Camping with a projectile is not planking. Falco IS fighting when he's shooting lasers. Plus, characters can approach you if you're using your projectile. Approaching a planking MK is MUCH more difficult and put you in a lot worse position (obviously depends on which character you are, but in general it's a lot safer to approach a camping Falco thank a planking MK.

and what if that person gives u the warning after u hit 40? this warning can't b proven. at that point u might as well have the person call over a judge to watch the rest of the match if stalling is suspected.

also plank v puff ended on second stock as well. no fuss was caused over that either at the tourney unlike at genesis. it was a lot worse imo too. go search it on utube, its there

If they give the warning after you hit 40 then you broke the rule. That's no different than if there was no warning anyway. But if you've already hit 40 by that point then you probably already know you're planking, eh? You see, if a judge were to decide it then the other player has to let you know that he thinks you're planking anyway so a judge can be called, but this way it is objective. Rather than letting a judge decide arbitrarily it's best to have a concrete rule so there can be no contesting it.

I don't really know what your point is about the other match. So there are worse matches out there? I'm sure that's true, and that's why a concrete rule needs to be in place, to prevent such matches from happening.

 

[DMG]

Plank vs Puffster wasn't that bad actually. Puffster didn't try well enough to punish/put pressure on Plank while he Dair camped. He would throw a banana up while Plank has 2-3 jumps left instead of 1-2 or none.

 

[AlphaZealot]

If you have the edge grab limit at 25-30 then no one will win by planking an entire match.

Will other characters be affected? Yes. Not all equally? Yes. Is the edge grab limit the only rule that doesn't effect every character equally? No.

So just decide what is important at your tournament.

As for the judges rule I said. I don't like that either, I hate it, however - it's more legit than a ledge grab rule. I'm against all opinionated rules. But if it was used at Genesis - if Larry was pissed during the match about what Dojo was doing - he could pause the match, call over a judge, and have them watch the rest. That's how it works. Have like 4 stalling judges at this event, there wont be more than 4 matches at any given time that need it. But even still, how was Dojo v Larry bad? What would a anti stalling judge have told Dojo? Uhhhh.... stop jumping? lol Wtf.

I recommended a 35 edge grab limit at Genesis. Dojo had 39 edge grabs and the match timed out. He was definitely planking at times and definitely air camping at times. The difference was that when he air camped Larry got hits in and when he planked Larry didn't.

If the edge grab limit is set to 50 it is a completely pointless rule. Again, almost none of you even know how often someone grabs the edge, not even ROB players who also think they grab far more often then they actually do, and yet you think 50 or even 40 is a low number. They aren't, they are absurdly HIGH numbers, and setting the edge grab limit to 50 means you might as well not even have the rule, since it will never come into effect planking or otherwise.

If you have it set to 25, you will stop planking near 100% while effecting maybe .01% of other match ups. And even that is an exaggeration, because matches have to time out, and you can't time someone out easily without likewise planking them (in which case both parties would break the 25 rule and you just reward the winner by percent/stock as normal).

Yes, you arbitrary limit edge play styles. However, banning planking arbitrarily limits a play style for just MK.

A match can essentially only be timed out without planking when both parties decide to not fight each other. If by some chance you do go over 25 edge grabs in the natural course of a fight, then all you have to do is win the **** fight in under 8 minutes. That might mean you have to come off the edge and be aggressive! You may have to actually fight the opponent (gasp!) A 'punishment' you deserve for not adapting your strategy to a new rule.

 

[Fino]

fino you've never intentionally ran to a ledge just to grab it.

Not against falco! >:[


~Fino

 

[MJG]

Not against falco! >:[


~Fino

You will hang onto the ledge to reshuffle your pikmin so that a "Purple Pikmin" is out in front of your line up so that you can throw it on stage in hopes of being able to recover safely. I don't consider this planking but someone else could when you are clearly trying to get back on stage since olimar has terrible Ledge-To-Stage options. I just think that this rule has ways of being avoided (unfortunately). Planking, IMO, takes out the true skill in the game when a player has to result to re-grabbing the ledge X amount of times in order to beat their opponent because they do not think that they can do so by just playing the match out.

MM's:
Dekar: $10.
YoshQ: $5.

 

[Wafles]

MJG, put down $5 vs. me if you're willing.
I played you in pools at No Koast v2 and I want some revenge.

 

[DMG]

Now that line of thought I don't agree with.

I don't like the negative stigma from "camping/playing gay/running away/etc" when they are legal things. There are more ways than 1 to win a Brawl match legally, why should they do the one that is more exciting or suggesting that if you don't play Brawl a certain way that you aren't really trying to fight your opponent.

Planking also takes skill to do and do well. It doesn't take out the skill needed to win, rather it shifts how large of an advantage you get with those skills.

 

[MJG]

MJG, put down $5 vs. me if you're willing.
I played you in pools at No Koast v2 and I want some revenge.

Ok done. Ill need to put these in my sig so I remember.

EDIT: When you put it like that DMG, I can understand why ArkiveZero and other brawlers decided to quit. This game isn't as competitive as others >_>

EDIT2: This is just my own personal opinion and that is why you and I differ from each other.