Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think spacing camping loses to projectile camping. Characters who rely on projectiles usually have less range overall than characters who don't (compare marth, falcon, ganon, dk to falco, fox, peach, marios, pikachu). Because of this there is a gap in spacing where the projectiles are risky to use but its also risky to attack directly. Linguini immediately came to my mind as a player who is very good at using that gap, but every good player is conscious of it on some level.

 

[JPOBS]

when i said auto lose, i meant, if you choose to only DD camp as marth, and i choose to only laser camp, at the end of 8 mins, i will win. this is all theoretical and would never happen obviously, so i understand your point.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh ok. I'm not sure I understand your post, then. Do you mind condensing it to a single post, cause I feel we may be talking about more than 1 thing.

 

[BigWenz]

their are other characters besides fox and falco in which camping wins them the game and as an example i give u http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nTq919cyzQ

also u forgot one type of camping only done by one character : jigglypuff and her air camping/bair camping

 

[JPOBS]

To be as too the point as possible:

I originally said (and this was a vague statement) "i dont think melee is that strong of a tactic in melee"
KK disagreed saying its incredibly powerful.

I went on to explain that most characters dont have a camping tool which is reliable/strong enough to singlehandedly win games. Two characters come to mind (fox/falco) and only really when they use a very specific form of camping (incessant platform camping and lasering under platforms respectively)

Everyone else is the cast, has mild versions of camping which intermediately give them advantages at any given time-spurt (dash dance camping, sheik shino stalling) but overall the strategy isnt powerful enough to win, not in the long run. So "camping" overall in melee, generally, i dont feel is a very strong tactic except in very specific situations.

Thats how i feel anyway.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But what about camping the gap that I mentioned in my previous post? If marth camps the gap without mindlessly aggroing, things can get really gay for falco.

While this type of camping won't win a game directly, in practice it is just as strong because of how safe it is. If falco laser camps and marth gap camps, marth's reward is greater and risk is lower (if falco tries to laser at that distance marth can punish during the start up). This can force falco to change spacing (whether attempting to get closer or move farther) and marth can punish based on that. Its part of the reason why the MU is so even.

 

[Stevo]

I actually find that camping is very powerful, especially when combined with trying to bait your opponent.

Getting a grab can often mean a stock, or a high damaging combo, or at the very least, some momentum.

I often lose simply because I was not patient enough and my opponent would wait for me to attack.

shield safe moves such as the shine and projectiles such as the laser can help combat the advantage of waiting/baiting, but overall, it is the basis of many characters' metagames.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

the only charcter I could see winning without camping is falco. if you just came in and rsuhed them also maybe if you're link and you can get your projectiles going you can rush people.

But camping is pretty important to some dergee i've seen a match where lugi camped wit his fireball somewhere in the luigi boards.

not for long but it worked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1cpHTuXff4&feature=related

 

[JPOBS]

But what about camping the gap that I mentioned in my previous post? If marth camps the gap without mindlessly aggroing, things can get really gay for falco.

While this type of camping won't win a game directly, in practice it is just as strong because of how safe it is. If falco laser camps and marth gap camps, marth's reward is greater and risk is lower (if falco tries to laser at that distance marth can punish during the start up). This can force falco to change spacing (whether attempting to get closer or move farther) and marth can punish based on that. Its part of the reason why the MU is so even.

Ah i understand your point.

I hadn't previously considered what marth would be doing in this case a form of camping. Strictly reading what you posted, outside the context of the discussion,I would have labeled marths actions as a form of "Pressure"

But when you put it that way, it could be said that marth is technically camping falco back being in position that forces falco to react, which is essentially what falco was doing first.
I hadn't really considered this all before so the notion of what "camping" actually is in melee is broader and more complicated than I had considered when making my last few posts. I was originally talking about the textbook style of blatant camping but I get what you're saying

 

[KirbyKaze]

nah b you're doing it wrong

camping is so powerful that some characters actually evaporate when you make them approach

but i won't tell you which ones <3

that's like telling someone the ending to a really good book

it's just not fair

the top tiers vs other top tiers is like w/e because they're all ludicrously powerful so they can do whatever they want because they're like the gods of this game and god vs god is a dumb matchup no matter how you slice it

 

[Cosmo!]

lol melee is awesome

 

[KirbyKaze]

cosmo's name is red it doesn't make sense he never even plays red zelda

 

[KAOSTAR]

mewtwo camps slow ppl. get ***** slow ppl!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm glad I live in the usa where we camp peaches right

 

[Laijin]

Young Link literally destroys characters BECAUSE he can camp so easily.
All of his terrible match ups come from characters that can keep up with him/out run him(Fox, Falcon, weegee).

Pretty much Young Link's MU flow chart looks like this:

Can he outcamp him? If yes, in YL's favor. If no, not in YL's favor.

Its a pretty powerful tool lol

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Young Link literally destroys characters BECAUSE he can camp so easily.
All of his terrible match ups come from characters that can keep up with him/out run him(Fox, Falcon, weegee).

Pretty much Young Link's MU flow chart looks like this:

Can he outcamp him? If yes, in YL's favor. If no, not in YL's favor.

Its a pretty powerful tool lol

This is the example of an exaggeration. YL is ok. But in all honestly, he doesn't DESTROY anyone. He has a few favorable MU's but nothing that remotely indicates that I or anyone else should put any effort into playing him for any specific purposes.

Sometimes I think you really feel like YL is gonna do something amazing in the near future or something. I'll eat my avatar's hat if that happens lol.

 

[Pragmatic]

Maybe if Young Link could camp and kill easily, he'd destroy matchups.

But otherwise, nope.

 

[Laijin]

This is the example of an exaggeration. YL is ok. But in all honestly, he doesn't DESTROY anyone. He has a few favorable MU's but nothing that remotely indicates that I or anyone else should put any effort into playing him for any specific purposes.

Sometimes I think you really feel like YL is gonna do something amazing in the near future or something. I'll eat my avatar's hat if that happens lol.

Young Link has extremely favorable MUs against characters like Bowser and DK simply because he is able to easily out camp them. If he wasn't able to out camp them, both characters would be able to kill him with ease.

I don't know how to give a more clear example than that.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Young Link has extremely favorable MUs against characters like Bowser and DK simply because he is able to easily out camp them. If he wasn't able to out camp them, both characters would be able to kill him with ease.

I don't know how to give a more clear example than that.

dk and bowser lol. im not impressed.

dj says bowser can kinda get around yl's garbage.
*runs away*

 

[Laijin]

dk and bowser lol. im not impressed.

dj says bowser can kinda get around yl's garbage.
*runs away*

Yea I read that post of his and laughed.

But yea. My point is, if YL can out camp a character he USUALLY has the advantage in the match up. Bowser and DK are just the easiest characters to out camp(because their big and slow. obvious reasons). So I used them as a good example

 

[THeDarKnesS]

[/Mythbusted="Young Link literally destroys characters BECAUSE he can camp so easily']

Aside from Dk and bowser, who does YL destroy. He does alright vs peach and puff, but the MU isnt even in his favor, despite the ability to out camp both of them.

I dont think YL wins against ganon either. He uses a similar strategy vs falco, just mash uair as you approach.

YL barely wins vs mewtwo despite being able to camp harder.

The point of camping is to get them to come to you so you can punish and kill them. YL be strugglin with that second part, so for now I'm going to have to disagree with your theory.

[/Mythbusted]

 

[Laijin]

Aside from Dk and bowser, who does YL destroy. He does alright vs peach and puff, but the MU isnt even in his favor, despite the ability to out camp both of them.

I dont think YL wins against ganon either. He uses a similar strategy vs falco, just mash uair as you approach.

YL barely wins vs mewtwo despite being able to camp harder.

The point of camping is to get them to come to you so you can punish and kill them. YL be strugglin with that second part, so for now I'm going to have to disagree with your theory.

vs Peach and Jiggs. The match ups would be worst if YL didn't have his projectiles.

YL vs Ganon is in ganon's favor, but once again would be worst if he didn't have projectiles

I disagree about YL vs M2. Its pretty far into YL's favor.

YL kinda ***** the low tiers because he can outcamp them(Minus Luigi, who has an advantage. Mario, Pikachu and Link are pretty much even or close to even)

 

[THeDarKnesS]

vs Peach and Jiggs. The match ups would be worst if YL didn't have his projectiles.

YL vs Ganon is in ganon's favor, but once again would be worst if he didn't have projectiles

I disagree about YL vs M2. Its pretty far into YL's favor.

YL kinda ***** the low tiers because he can outcamp them(Minus Luigi, who has an advantage. Mario, Pikachu and Link are pretty much even or close to even)

But YL can camp them, yet he still loses to ganon peach and jiggz.

Your original statement about YL being able to camp a character means he wins the MU is untrue. Just in case you attempt to argue that you never said that....its implied that when YL destroys a character that you mean its more likely that he will win....which means you can attribute that YL having an advantage(by connotation of destroy a much larger adv.) vs that specific character.

Sooo. that new argument is pretty poor. If falco didnt have lasers, all of his MUs would be worse, doesnt mean anything. He still is at an advantage in alot of them, although I admit some would no longer be in his favor.

His camping beats alot a low tiers, or at least gives him a slight advantage, but its the lack of approach that really hurts most low tiers. GW M2 Pichu can at least deal with projectiles decently.

I just think YL is aight overall, probably gonna end up being less viable than Mewtwo and possibly Zelda. I personally believe YL is better than Roy and GW.

 

[KAOSTAR]

But YL can camp them, yet he still loses to ganon peach and jiggz.

Your original statement about YL being able to camp a character means he wins the MU is untrue. Just in case you attempt to argue that you never said that....its implied that when YL destroys a character that you mean its more likely that he will win....which means you can attribute that YL having an advantage(by connotation of destroy a much larger adv.) vs that specific character.

Sooo. that new argument is pretty poor. If falco didnt have lasers, all of his MUs would be worse, doesnt mean anything. He still is at an advantage in alot of them, although I admit some would no longer be in his favor.

His camping beats alot a low tiers, or at least gives him a slight advantage, but its the lack of approach that really hurts most low tiers. GW M2 Pichu can at least deal with projectiles decently.

I just think YL is aight overall, probably gonna end up being less viable than Mewtwo and possibly Zelda. I personally believe YL is better than Roy and GW.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Shaeman111]

On paper Peach looks great, but this is a tier list which measures tournament viability. So let's compare Peach's matchups among top tourney characters to Marth's matchups among those characters...

Marth does much better against Fox
Peach does a bit better against Falco
Peach does moderately better against Sheik
Marth does a bit better against Puff
Marth does a bit better against Falcon
Marth does moderately better in the head-to-head matchup

Now let's compare to Falcon...

Falcon does a bit better against Fox
Peach does moderately better against Falco
Peach does moderately better against Sheik
Both do about the same vs. Puff
Falcon does moderately better against Marth
Falcon does moderately better in the head-to-head matchup (I would argue much better, to be honest)

Keep in mind that Fox and Falcon are the most common characters in tourney, and they are also Peach's worst matchups.

But Peach does slightly better than both of them against Ice Climbers! Because that totally matters.

No Johns...

 

[Deleted member]

and that's why we have a tournament viability chart (the tier list) and a very separate and independent match-up chart.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Keep in mind that Fox and Falcon are the most common characters in tourney, and they are also Peach's worst matchups.

I'd argue that Falco is more popular than Falcon.

 

[KAOSTAR]

so is this list official lol, or is one happening in the forseeable future

 

[john!]

and that's why we have a tournament viability chart (the tier list) and a very separate and independent match-up chart.

yeah but they're closely related

I'd argue that Falco is more popular than Falcon.

i know lol, falcon is just popular around my area

so is this list official lol, or is one happening in the forseeable future

no! it's not even official apparently...

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yeah i dunno what the point of this release was.. just for the mods to tell us this is hbox's cute little attention list to get people to stfu?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco at high level can camp lasers and death combo with a read but can he see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

GET ON MY LEVEL HO WHAT

 

[JPOBS]

Falco at high level can camp lasers and death combo with a read but can he see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?

have i told you lately that i love you?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yes birds like to peck at bread and ceral. I swear people wanta camp but whin about camping brinstar depths is amazing. plus walljumping and grapples are fun there. Really it's not as bad as KJ64s super camping.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Falco at high level can camp lasers and death combo with a read but can he see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?

Siged....
lawl

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm not going to lie I rarly even smile at KK's posts for now on you need to tell me if it's fun or something like a symbol where I can go like oh yeah this is funny. Now I feel like a jerk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yl3UMO-TkE

 

[The Good Doctor]

I'm not going to lie I rarly even smile at KK's posts for now on you need to tell me if it's fun or something like a symbol where I can go like oh yeah this is funny. Now I feel like a jerk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yl3UMO-TkE

I need a translator please....
but the tier list is good...
=P

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I need a translator please....
but the tier list is good...
=P

I can't argee with any of this not even the = P because it's a part of this clearly commuist plot.

pichu>kirby I even made a picture with proof of it in the pichu boards.
here

I think you'll see that everything is in order.

 

[KirbyKaze]

GET ON MY LEVEL HO WHAT

ಠ_ಠ

This is blasphemy. And yet tantalizing.

have i told you lately that i love you?

No! It's the cinnamon sugar swirls in every bite!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

no did he post something funny again? I can't tell if so add a drug roll thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yl3UMO-TkE