Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[WindMajor]

I just want to acknowledge that Sethlon's version of the MU Chart is really ****ing epic, and that he did a good job on it.

 

[Poltergust]

I played pride in 08/09 and Delta in '10. Same crap worked on both of them.

When in 2010 is important. Of course, if it was certainly fairly recently I'll just tell Delta to step it up and not lose to the same repeated tactic. If predicted, Wolf's moves can certainly be handled by Yoshi. It's not like Lucario in which you can't do anything most of the time even if you predict what your opponent is going to do.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Setting out a tier list based on the average matchup score is certainly interesting



Also lol at Ganondorf's MU's in Sethlon's version
Not single happy face to be found

 

[DKwill]

I would just like to point out that DK vs Yoshi should at least be -1 for DK. Cable and I have both lost to Deltacod recently, and the only time I have ever beaten him in bracket was by accident game 3 last hit when he killed himself xD

But seriously, DK needs to like, fish for aerial headbutts while Yoshi attempts to pivot grab to make this matchup even. Even then it's impossible to get in. Polt, please tell me why you think it's even haha.

 

[Chuee]

I just want to acknowledge that Sethlon's version of the MU Chart is really ****ing epic, and that he did a good job on it.

Yeah, I liked it too :3

 

[_Yes!_]

When in 2010 is important. Of course, if it was certainly fairly recently I'll just tell Delta to step it up and not lose to the same repeated tactic. If predicted, Wolf's moves can certainly be handled by Yoshi. It's not like Lucario in which you can't do anything most of the time even if you predict what your opponent is going to do.

I pretty much taught Delta the wolf matchup It was earlier on. He hasn't lost to a wolf since IIRC. But still, Yoshi sucks

 

[Poltergust]

DK punishes Yoshi super-hard for his mistakes and has great-range in his ground moves and aerials. Yoshi also doesn't have anything special on DK other than DK being combo-bait (and a chain-grab that doesn't lead to any guaranteed follow-ups).

Actually, you should be asking why most of the DK panel thought it was in their favor instead.

 

[DKwill]

DK punishes Yoshi super-hard for his mistakes and has great-range in his ground moves and aerials. Yoshi also doesn't have anything special on DK other than DK being combo-bait (and a chain-grab that doesn't lead to any guaranteed follow-ups).

Actually, you should be asking why most of the DK panel thought it was in their favor instead.

I guess this just means I need to step it up, stop being a scrub, and not up-b away when I get CG-ed but just take the pummels lol. I think that's why I lose.

Oh also, Yoshi >>>>> DK when DK is above him. It's like automatic up air no matter what @_@

 

[MintyFlesh]

I think marth loses to rob, and possibly dk

 

[MechaWave]

I just want to acknowledge that Sethlon's version of the MU Chart is really ****ing epic, and that he did a good job on it.

Link, please? =0

 

[Matador]

Link, please? =0

Second post of this thread.

 

[MechaWave]

Second post of this thread.

Woow, can't believe I missed that. ^_^' Well, I was just skimming through it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Thanks Polt + Yoshis for your quick responses to my ICs question.


IMHO

For Ike I think vs Falco is -1

Ike vs Pika, ICs, Samus, Wario, ROB, wolf, sheik are at least even. Some I am unsure about whether they might be better worse or the same, such as Kirby, G&W, ZSS. I think Ike possibly beats Wario but I'm not 100% sure. Need to play Trela again to see how it is vs Lucario. -1 sounds right, but I want to make it better =)

I think Ike beats sheik. Ike is at least +1 vs Bowser and Jigglypuff. I thought we were +0 against Yoshi, too. We may be +0 against Ness but we have an advantage vs Lucas.

*agrees with most of the above*

Who was on the Ike panel?

 

[Poltergust]

San, I was also arguing for a 0 on Ike, but that's the number we ultimately agreed on.

This list can still be updated in the near-future, so I'll keep that match-up in mind.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

San, I was also arguing for a 0 on Ike, but that's the number we ultimately agreed on.

This list can still be updated in the near-future, so I'll keep that match-up in mind.

Like, tomorrow soon?

Also: that reason for no LGLs is weak. You're the BBR: be consistent. The current tier list has no LGL. Until that changes, all other data has to use the exact same rules, otherwise they aren't compatible with each other. That means no LGLs, and that means characters like Falco take a hit MU wise, while characters like MK get an insane increase.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

>_> Pika Ike is still +1 Pika. We have CG that gets you to the edge, then silly edgeguarding. I'm also short so a lot of stuff wouldn't work, like sh bair doesn't hit. I die quick, but Pikachu is so fast that it is hard for Ike to really get in.

 

[Vermanubis]

Absolutely wonderful chart. Ganon's MUs are definitely accurate.

 

[Mr. Doom]

*agrees with most of the above*

Who was on the Ike panel?

Craysyn and I were on the Ike panel. And as Alphicians said earlier, "We had to compensate for TONS of match-ups to best reflect the opinion from both sides."

>_> Pika Ike is still +1 Pika. We have CG that gets you to the edge, then silly edgeguarding. I'm also short so a lot of stuff wouldn't work, like sh bair doesn't hit. I die quick, but Pikachu is so fast that it is hard for Ike to really get in.

I don't even remember if I talked to you about this match-up, but regardless we decided on Pikachu having a +1 over Ike. <_<

 

[san.]

You take many % just to get that grab, so the risk/reward ratio is favorable, but not as favorable as Pika wants. Pika can't edgeguard Ike very easily, takes a little bit of luck and timing. Ike's main focus is nair over bair in terms of aerials. All your aerials get beat by jab/nair. Ike has much easier time killing and surviving against Pika.

A possible CG turns the MU from Ike favor to even.

 

[NAKAT]

Imo Fox should have

0: MK, Wario, Pit

 

[Poltergust]

Like, tomorrow soon?

Also: that reason for no LGLs is weak. You're the BBR: be consistent. The current tier list has no LGL. Until that changes, all other data has to use the exact same rules, otherwise they aren't compatible with each other. That means no LGLs, and that means characters like Falco take a hit MU wise, while characters like MK get an insane increase.

Well, if any changes were to occur then the panels of the characters involved will have to discuss the match-up again, which would take some time.

And... uh... don't look at me about the ruleset. I wasn't in the BBR when it was created lol. In any case, we have the BBR-RC to make a official set of rules to be used in all major tournaments, and I'm confident that they'll create a ruleset that is agreeable to everyone.

 

[z00ted]

Why is the Peach part soo bad

Why are they even doing this? Like 3/4 of the people in the Backroom aren't players who play the character near or close to high/top level play.

Every board already has specific character matchup threads where everyone can give their input on matchups.

(not just Private Message people who they think should be considered for the job).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And as Alphicians said earlier, "We had to compensate for TONS of match-ups to best reflect the opinion from both sides."

If you have to compensate too much, most MUs will simply be flat out wrong. Grey area fallacy exists after all :/ I'm thinking some of this could have been avoided with more numbers, and more debating over going "eh, it's in between what we're saying at least".

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It is easy to edgeguard Ike. Timing is simple, especially with something as obvious as Ike screaming "Aether!"

 

[san.]

Pikachu has less invinciblity frames than most characters so it makes it harder. I know just about every way to gimp Ike.

 

[Orion*]

Every board already has specific character matchup threads where everyone can give their input on matchups.

(not just Private Message people who they think should be considered for the job).

Most opinions suck imo. At least I have to read through less in the BBR

If you have to compensate too much, most MUs will simply be flat out wrong. Grey area fallacy exists after all :/ I'm thinking some of this could have been avoided with more numbers, and more debating over going "eh, it's in between what we're saying at least".

Some people will/would never budge sides and it was up to us to get this out in a timely fashion. Either way it was a lot of work- for some more than I personally was willing to give so I don't really see the problem. People will debate on MUs endlessly anyway.

I can honestly say we tried ^_^

 

[Kewkky]

I think Kirby's MUs worked out pretty well, I haven't seen a single complaint from any Kirby mains, or any other character main complaining about their character's Mu vs Kirby. I'm quite proud! *incites flames*

Someone said something along these lines at the start of the thread: everyone's looking at the MUs they don't like, but they're not considering how the other side of the MU feels about it. Character boards' MU threads all have the input of their communities, but they usually shrug off the visitor's opinions. This led to a LOT of disagreements, like for example, Y character board would have 55:45 against X, while X character board had a 50:50 MU. Neither could prove that they were right or wrong, and those who discussed as much as possible were simply shrugged off with posts like "you obviously know nothing about X/Y, this MU is blahblahblah"... Lots of pointless arguments ensued afterwards until their next MU was gonna get discussed... So OF COURSE we're not gonna have the same MUs you see in your character boards!

Also, you guys have to understand that most of you are not higher level players. There are some exceptions talking in this thread (which I can NOT understand why the people in charge of that character's panel didn't contact you), but the majority is NOT a higher level player, therefore your opinion is like a grain of salt to us: it matters when it needs to matter.

Also: that reason for no LGLs is weak. You're the BBR: be consistent. The current tier list has no LGL. Until that changes, all other data has to use the exact same rules, otherwise they aren't compatible with each other. That means no LGLs, and that means characters like Falco take a hit MU wise, while characters like MK get an insane increase.

The tier list was done while our ruleset was still in effect, before the BBRRC was made, so there was the assumption that there were no LGLs. Now that our ruleset has been canceled by forces outside of the BBR's control and is now in hands of the BBRRC, and they decided that LGL's will be a part of the official rules, we had to keep it in mind for any future projects. Believe me when I tell you that the next tier lists will have LGLs in mind as well.

 

[Kinzer]

I feel so sorry for the person who brings it upon themselves to arrange the characters in order of best to worst in terms of MUs, including or otherwise not how the other characters' view them.

Until that happens, I guess all I can say is "neat stuff."

 

[stingers]

san obv. knows the pika matchup better than any pika could possibly know the ike matchup lol. i'd listen to him...

edit: hey san how does rob gimp ike?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Eh...there is one good thing you can probably use this topic four: if lots of different characters complain that their MU against X character is off, you can probably assume that the panel for X character is too bias.

For example, if A, B, C, D, E, F, and G all complain that their MU against X are off by a number, that's probably rather telling of X's panel, seeing as it's not just one group but 7 groups. Kinda lets you know which mains tend to over inflate their own MUs eh?

 

[z00ted]

Most opinions suck imo. At least I have to read through less in the BBR

I can honestly say we tried ^_^

I'll give you that Orion

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu has less invinciblity frames than most characters so it makes it harder.

It is more difficult, but not unlikely with practice. At the very least he should be taking a decent amount of damage.

 

[HeroMystic]

So OF COURSE we're not gonna have the same MUs you see in your character boards!

That still doesn't explain how Metaknight is not a -3 for Mario, yet Marth, Dedede, and G&W(lol) is.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

also PT is as hard as MK for mario is still pretty lol.

 

[Matador]

That still doesn't explain how Metaknight is not a -3 for Mario, yet Marth, Dedede, and G&W(lol) is.

Quoted for emphasis.

This should be fixed or at least explained. That, and PT being -2 for Mario. Like...where did that even come from? Lmao

 

[Huggles828]

*Looks at Link*

*Sees Peach at -3, G&W at -1, Sheik at -1, Zelda/Sheik at -1*
ಠ_ಠ
Sheik pwns Link hardcore. That's definitely a -3. Peach is nowhere near as bad as some of the characters listed as -2, such as Olimar or Pikachu. G&W is heavily in his favor, -2 at least. There are a few in -2 I'd move to -1 or -3 too, although most I can at least see an argument for.
/generic rage about my character's MU inaccuracies.

Nice work BBR. Obviously, a first release like this is likely going to have people get mad and disagree, and I'm sure it's a bit inaccurate, but I'm sure it took a lot of hard work on y'all's part. Keep at it and I'm sure this will be looking good in no time!

 

[MK26]

I feel so sorry for the person who brings it upon themselves to arrange the characters in order of best to worst in terms of MUs, including or otherwise not how the other characters' view them.

Until that happens, I guess all I can say is "neat stuff."

hey, if the bbr gave me the excel file i could do it quite easily...and im sure anybody in the bbr that knows how to use excel could as well

EDIT: yes, this is an offer to write up a chart with the weighted averages

 

[z00ted]

Kewkky I understand and respect why you guys did this, but I don't understand how some matchups were changed all of a sudden after we have all recently talked about a lot of these matchups.

Were only character specific players allowed to decide on the matchups or was the whole BBR allowed to influence their decisions?

 

[Kewkky]

That still doesn't explain how Metaknight is not a -3 for Mario, yet Marth, Dedede, and G&W(lol) is.

also PT is as hard as MK for mario is still pretty lol.

Well, all I can say is that you guys should blame the respective "character panels", which is the group of BBR members assigned to each character. Those who weren't assigned to a panel were forbidden from interfering, to keep spam and off-topic talk to the lowest possible degree. If you have a problem with MK vs Mario for example, then you have to ask the MKs and Marios (or whoever might play mario) of the BBR, which most probably participated in the panel for their respective characters.

I'm still feeling good about Kirby!

Kewkky I understand and respect why you guys did this, but I don't understand how some matchups were changed all of a sudden after we have all recently talked about a lot of these matchups.

Were only character specific players allowed to decide on the matchups or was the whole BBR allowed to influence their decisions?

I wrote it as a reply to the previous people in this here post, so I guess it applies to your question too.

 

[Suspect]

lol @ marth vs luigi at medium