Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

[mikeHAZE]

also, i saw you guys do air grab release on metaknight vs yoshi (distant planet)

wouldn't the slope get rid of any possibility of an airbreak?

lol

 

[MJG]

Wouldn't yoshi be able to Chain Grab any Chain Grabbable character from the slope part of the stage all the way to the left part of the stage for an easy kill?


Good Games.

 

[MarKO X]

but if a player favors another stage that MK is good on . . .

 

[z00ted]

Lol..... this is still funny.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I'm pretty sure if someone tries stalling out a match with the Dimensional Cape Glitch you can do the same thing you can with any other stalling: call the TO over. Chances are the MK will tire himself out before that.

Personally, I'd love it if someone tried to stall me out with a Dimensional Cape. It's more than likely he will fall off the side of the stage and suicide before that giving me a free stock off MK. Alas, this is not realistic, as I haven't seen an MK pull this off for much more than a few seconds (including Mew2King).

Seriously? I can and have done this for 3 minutes in a match. I also make it release on edge for free ledge grab invincibility if I get tired. I do it in friendlies all the time. On japes, I can just wander around to various ledges with it. It's great fun.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Never has there been such a large gathering of angry nerds on the internet in one place.

I am one of those angry nerds.

 

[Shaya]

There was a bit of deterrence of the use of "Counter/Banned" in the stage list's discussion.

Hence why there are only two stages in that clarification.
A lot of the counter stages were reasonably even in terms of counter/banned, but there was a general hostile campaign against those who were wanting to have a "counter/banned" status quo on these stages.

Bleeeh.

TOs should really be shaping their starter list as we recommended (as using the tiers) and pick which counterpick stages they desire. Some of the stages really aren't that bad, but they definitely require a lot of "starting fresh" to get used to them competitively (again or for the first time).

General arguments involved on stages with camping issues to be "the threshold",
many BBR voters indicated that as long as the threshold for camping wasn't "infinite" it's feasible that the stage is okay for counterpick.
Stuff like luigi's mansion being destroyed etc etc.

 

[z00ted]

I sware I felt this coming on when I saw all those.
"What is competitive Brawl?" or "Why is 75MM Banned?" threads.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

*i'm watching the slope cg tests*


you just mistimed the chaingrab on marth, nothing to do with staleness

Good to know. It seemed a bit weird, but I couldn't tell. Pit and Marth were left until the end after like 2 hours of testing every character in the game. I may have been a bit off by that point, haha


To you and Atomsk, please feel free to specify what is wrong. Those videos weren't meant to be a final note on anything, they were just some testing since no information was available. Being linked here out of context might not have made that clear.

Please feel free to comment or correct anything you wish.

 

[Ripple]

everyone complaining right now obviously wants to see a MK infected meta game.

 

[sunshade]

Just a few questions dabuz.

pirate ship is dumb overall because in an intense match it can be hard to see a hazard, and the floaty part+water camping just isn't fair

Wouldn't the player that sees the bombs coming despite the match being intense be a better player in regards to his ability to focus on multiple variables while maintaining a main focus?

What is your definition for unfair?

Why is the stage being floaty unfair?

Why is water camping unfair?

PS2's physics changes are way to drastic, often changing entire characters and MUs because of how much the stage effects the game

The physics changes only last about 10 seconds. Is the stage giving an advantage for 10 seconds really worse than a static stage which gives an advantage 100% of the time?

even though my character benefits way too much from luigi's mansion, i still would wanna see it banned, the fact that entire MUs will be played around abusing the stage is way too much

If your character is not broken on the stage why does it matter?

What is wrong with abusing the stage?

distant planet=dumb in general, basically in some MUs a character literally can only play on the middle of the stage otherwise they will get instant death by CG, also the bottom of the slope is a very broken camping spot for a lot of characters

If you are standing on the right side of the hill, the left side of the leafy platforms/base, or the right side of teh leafy palatform/base then the chain grabs are of zero threat to you.

Many of the characters who chain grab up the hill are also reliant on specific percentages for the grab to work so the left side of the hill can also become safe later on.

The camping under the leaf has yet to be proven to be broken so why should we allow a knee-jerk reaction to dictate our stage policy?

I thought stages were supposed to give advantages to characters but not over-centralize meta-games, apparently i have been wrong this whole time

Something does not over centralize unless it is unbeatable. It is once it becomes unbeatable that the game becomes a "do X or go home" in which case everyone does X and the game becomes saturated with tactic X.

and finally, mk has no ledge grab limit...wtf

This is targeted at everyone not just you.

Why is it ok to ban grabbing the ledge?

Its a fundamental part of the game in the same way standing on stage and jumping are.

A characters ledge game is no different than a characters ground or air game. The fact that we treat it differently is shocking to me.

 

[lordhelmet]

There is a very large misconception going on right now.

Its the idea that adding stages which are slightly better than average for Metaknight makes him better in some way. They don't in fact they make him worse. I can explain this using logic and reason and its actually very simple to understand.

Lets say we are in the typical 3 game set. Player 1 is Metaknight and player 2 is anyone else.

Now its Metaknight's turn to counterpick. Player 2 now must ban a stage, in this scenario he bans Rainbow Cruise (Metaknight's best stage).

Metaknight now needs to pick a stage he wants to go to. He can only pick one stage so he wants to pick the best possible stage for him. Due to Rainbow Cruise being banned however he must go to his second best stage instead. So Metaknight is going to head on over to Brinstar or depending on the match-up norfair (but more often than not brinstar).

Now Metaknight as you may notice tried to pick his absolute best stage. But because he could not he had to pick his second best. All of the stages added are irrelevant due to them not being better than his best or second best stage and as a result they don't actually buff him (since he will only pick his best or second best stage assuming he is playing as optimal as possible).

Other characters however gain strong advantages from these stages which do not aid Metaknight more than his best or second best. For example Falco now may pick Jungle Japes which is his best stage. This will get banned and he will now be able to fight Metaknight on his former best stage Final Destination thus buffing Falco in the match-up.

Other characters like Donkey kong who preform well on luigi's mansion now may take Metaknight to their preferred stage of choice due to metaknight most likely banning the mansion thus boosting DK.

Diddy kong and pictochat. I am sure you get the idea by now.

This applies to many characters and as a result strengthens many characters by allowing them to fight on a stronger stage than normal when fighting Metaknight. Metaknight however still has his two strongest stages unchanged and as a result is not buffed.

MK vs Olimar

Olimar wins game one, he then bans Port Town.

MK is now free to take Olimar to RC (which the Olimar would've banned in the previous ruleset), Norfair, or Japes. Whatever stage the MK is most comfortable with.

 

[AvaricePanda]

If MK at the air transformation is the only real problem with the stage ( other than the dancing blade glitch) then why is it banworthy?

Other than that one transformation, it's not a top priority MK CP for many if any match-ups.

Even considering that one transformation, the non-MK can just try to stick on the ground as long as possible. Or maybe at the ledge; if being in the air vs. MK is really that bad in that section I can't see why you can't just not jump for 20 seconds (wow too many negatives lol).

edit@helmet, not every match-up is improved by the new stagelist, true. You put one example and sunshade put three, so you didn't really prove much. I don't even agree with like half of these controversial stages but it's not as bad as you and everyone else is making it out to be.

 

[The Real Inferno]

MK vs Olimar

Olimar wins game one, he then bans Port Town.

MK is now free to take Olimar to RC (which the Olimar would've banned in the previous ruleset), Norfair, or Japes. Whatever stage the MK is most comfortable with.

aaand then Olimar takes MK to Luigi's or Pipes. Both are great for Oli, and Pipes especially, since it eliminates tether problems entirely and has a short ceiling. I don't see where you were going with this.

 

[Steam]

If YI melee is allowed D3 now is guranteed a broken CP against anyone he can CG up slopes.

yay.

 

[The Real Inferno]

If YI melee is allowed D3 now is guranteed a broken CP against anyone he can CG up slopes.

yay.

That is very few characters. I think it's less than he can infinite in place actually. Pikachu can CG way more characters up the slope.

 

[bigman40]

Not everyone. At least Yoshi doesn't get CGed from it lol. Have fun CG prey XD

 

[sunshade]

MK vs Olimar

Olimar wins game one, he then bans Port Town.

MK is now free to take Olimar to RC (which the Olimar would've banned in the previous ruleset), Norfair, or Japes. Whatever stage the MK is most comfortable with.

It will take tournament results before I accept that Port town is a better stage for metaknight against olimar than Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise.

If in the event tournament results prove your hypothetical correct.

So what? Olimar's match-up becomes just a bit worse but at the same time for characters like falco and diddy it becomes just a bit better.

You are also not looking at olimars side of the counterpicking. He does very well on Luigi's mansion.

 

[Vermanubis]

When will people just realize we can stop jumping through hoops if we ban the little fgt known as MK? lol\

And all I've seen from BBR members and BBR supporters is pure sophistry. I've yet to see one relevant point be made by anyone who supports this ruleset. They have extremely selective logic and are plagued by oversights and tunnel vision.

 

[lordhelmet]

Just a few questions dabuz.

Wouldn't the player that sees the bombs coming despite the match being intense be a better player in regards to his ability to focus on multiple variables while maintaining a main focus?

When you're in a really intense match, often times you are not looking at the background, you shouldn't required to be in the first place. Within a second of not looking at the BG you could be hit by a bomb at 50% and lose a stock.

The physics changes only last about 10 seconds. Is the stage giving an advantage for 10 seconds really worse than a static stage which gives an advantage 100% of the time?

These changes are pretty unfair IMO. The floaty transformation basically gives MK a free KO with nado (which KOs at 0% IIRC). The electric transformation is absolutely ridiculous with the treadmill ground.

If you are standing on the right side of the hill, the left side of the leafy platforms/base, or the right side of teh leafy palatform/base then the chain grabs are of zero threat to you.

Unless that character happens to be Falco who is forcing you to approach with lasers. He can even boost pivot grab you from a dthrow if you are facing away from the blast zone at the slant and continue to CG -> fsmash you for the KO.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

also, i saw you guys do air grab release on metaknight vs yoshi (distant planet)

wouldn't the slope get rid of any possibility of an airbreak?

lol

Lolno Why'd you think that?

Wouldn't yoshi be able to Chain Grab any Chain Grabbable character from the slope part of the stage all the way to the left part of the stage for an easy kill?


Good Games.

Do you know how Yoshi's Chain Grab works? Some of them Wouldn't be CGable at all because they hit the ground too fast for us to get a regrab. But To be fair I think some people we can't CG like Ness and Mario would be able to be walked off on the slope. I'll test em out later. But til then just don't get grabbed in that position and you'll be fine.

 

[Vermanubis]

Guys stfu. You all should be able to skillfully adapt and utilize the facets of new pork city and big blue.

As for D3, just don't get grabbed once the entire match! That's not so hard, is it?

 

[mikeHAZE]

Lolno Why'd you think that?

Do you know how Yoshi's Chain Grab works? Some of them Wouldn't be CGable at all because they hit the ground too fast for us to get a regrab. But To be fair I think some people we can't CG like Ness and Mario would be able to be walked off on the slope. I'll test em out later. But til then just don't get grabbed in that position and you'll be fine.

i dunno, because for some reason i thought mk would touch the ground as he's getting grabbed, but forgot that he's inside yoshi.


distant planet would take away all airbreaks for marth if grabbed upwards on the slope.

 

[lordhelmet]

It will take tournament results before I accept that Port town is a better stage for metaknight against olimar than Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise.

If in the event tournament results prove your hypothetical correct.

So what? Olimar's match-up becomes just a bit worse but at the same time for characters like falco and diddy it becomes just a bit better.

You are also not looking at olimars side of the counterpicking. He does very well on Luigi's mansion.

All MK has to do is dair Olimar offstage and either Oli loses his stock or takes 30% from bouncing off the floor >_>

And it's not like the MK won't ban Mansion. Even if he doesn't I see Oli as having more advantage there than MK.

 

[MJG]

Lolno Why'd you think that?

Do you know how Yoshi's Chain Grab works? Some of them Wouldn't be CGable at all because they hit the ground too fast for us to get a regrab. But To be fair I think some people we can't CG like Ness and Mario would be able to be walked off on the slope. I'll test em out later. But til then just don't get grabbed in that position and you'll be fine.

Ok. Thats what I thought.

Spoiler

Yoshi is bad anyways

 

[Atomsk_92]

That is very few characters. I think it's less than he can infinite in place actually. Pikachu can CG way more characters up the slope.

DDD can CG up the slopes every character he can CG. Cept luigi

 

[AvaricePanda]

The PS2 transformations are fine. The air one is worse and yes MK can abuse it but you just have to not jump for 10-20 seconds, maybe stay at the edge, or jump a lot more intelligently, do something. The electric transformation's only problem is Marth's dancing blade glitch (which tbh i find much more of an issue than MK at the air transformation), but for every other character it's fine, just different. Same with the ice stage; now everyone has Luigi's traction.

Different physics doesn't mean the stage is banworthy, there are like no hazards and aside from like one instance there are no known ways for characters to abuse the physics. They're just different. And even if you hate how the physics change, they only last for 10-20 seconds before it goes back to the main stage.

ya'll should be arguing about Green Greens

PS2's fine lol

 

[The Real Inferno]

DDD can CG up the slopes every character he can CG. Cept luigi

*shrugs* I didn't vote for it, but I was told otherwise. Do me a favor and make a video of that so I can use it in the next discussion and then people won't whine and ***** at me that I have no evidence.

 

[Ussi]

To anyone know DOESN'T know how to deal with cannonballs on pirate ship, it makes a clearly distinct sound when one is launched

 

[Vermanubis]

The PS2 transformations are fine. The air one is worse and yes MK can abuse it but you just have to not jump for 10-20 seconds, maybe stay at the edge, or jump a lot more intelligently, do something. The electric transformation's only problem is Marth's dancing blade glitch (which tbh i find much more of an issue than MK at the air transformation), but for every other character it's fine, just different. Same with the ice stage; now everyone has Luigi's traction.

Different physics doesn't mean the stage is banworthy, there are like no hazards and aside from like one instance there are no known ways for characters to abuse the physics. They're just different. And even if you hate how the physics change, they only last for 10-20 seconds before it goes back to the main stage.

How many absurd justifications can someone come up with?

It's k, guys, change in physics doesn't mean anything. Stages are only banworthy if you die as soon as you touch the ground. The transformations only last for half a minute, no worries.

 

[milesg2g]

To anyone know DOESN'T know how to deal with cannonballs on pirate ship, it makes a clearly distinct sound when one is launched

That stage has a rock.

Completely unfair. v_v

 

[Atomsk_92]

*shrugs* I didn't vote for it, but I was told otherwise. Do me a favor and make a video of that so I can use it in the next discussion and then people won't whine and ***** at me that I have no evidence.

So...you guys assumed information from players that don't play said character? Good going SBR

 

[Steam]

DDD can CG up the slopes every character he can CG. Cept luigi

Cool, D3 now auto-wins vs. like half the cast on his counterpick if pipes is legal.

 

[The Real Inferno]

So...you guys assumed information from players that don't play said character? Good going SBR

lol like I said, I didn't vote for it. Doesn't matter to me. But a video would greatly help in evidence against the stage. Though part of the evidence to the contrary was that DDD can only go up the one side, so staying on the other prevents that.

Edit: Believe it or not I'm not the entire BBR, and can't control minds, though I wish every day that I could.

 

[Vermanubis]

Hey, BBR, is it cool if I get up midmatch and blast a nuclear flatice in my opponent's face? He should be able to deal with the new conditions. He could easily avoid the methane cloud.

 

[MarKO X]

When you're in a really intense match, often times you are not looking at the background, you shouldn't required to be in the first place. Within a second of not looking at the BG you could be hit by a bomb at 50% and lose a stock.

But this is Smash, not Street Fighter.

These changes are pretty unfair IMO. The floaty transformation basically gives MK a free KO with nado (which KOs at 0% IIRC). The electric transformation is absolutely ridiculous with the treadmill ground.

But this is Smash, not Street Fighter.

Unless that character happens to be Falco who is forcing you to approach with lasers. He can even boost pivot grab you from a dthrow if you are facing away from the blast zone at the slant and continue to CG -> fsmash you for the KO.

But this is Smash, not Street Fighter.

That said, I love how different people pick different points where they want the game to feel like Smash and where they want the game to feel like a standard 2D fighting game.

Maybe that's the problem with Brawl rulesets? Outside of "what's best for competition," there doesn't seem to be any goal for what the rule set is trying to accomplish. BBR and regions themselves all have this "philosophy" on what's good for competition, and maybe it needs to be more than just that. Maybe you guys need to figure out what's good for competitive BRAWL.

of course, that can lead to discussion just as subjective as this.

 

[KageMurphy]

Hey, BBR, is it cool if I get up midmatch and blast a nuclear flatice in my opponent's face? He should be able to deal with the new conditions. He could easily avoid the methane cloud.

You're taking a very immature and lame approach to this, the majority of the suggested rules are horrible but you need to shut up.

 

[Vermanubis]

You're taking a very immature and lame approach to this, the rules are horrible but you need to shut up.

Thank you for putting me in my place.

 

[lordhelmet]

I gotta agree with Verm here.

I was shocked to see Big Blue not on the CP list. I mean the ground is easily avoidable, just don't get spiked or fall off one of the F-Zero machines. There's a Brawl strategy known as "zoning" which guarantees you will never be forced into a bad spot by the other player.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Hey, BBR, is it cool if I get up midmatch and blast a nuclear flatice in my opponent's face? He should be able to deal with the new conditions. He could easily avoid the methane cloud.

This.


I was talking with my friend on AiM and he was saying how this thread is making a lot of people agree with people they don't want to be agreeing with. Take me and Verm. He made a combo video and based it around matchup ratios he made up, so I thought he was an idiot. I bring up his made up Tink MU, argue with him, and realize I couldn't give a **** what this guy thinks.

Here we are, both *****ing about these rules. Hell, if this was a less important issue, I might disagree with him just to fit my own persona. Since it isn't, and it REALLY isn't, I support this guy and almost feel a weird...yet strangely practical bro love for him.