Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[Mikey7]

Well, first of all, every stage in groups 1 and 2 (and most of group 3, like PTAD) are legitimate counterpick stages with no truly bannable strategies. There is no reason to ban them, therefore we don't ban them; the same way there is no reason to ban FD, therefore we don't ban FD. Seems pretty **** straightforward to me.
Second of all, the more starters, the closer you get to an even stage on game one, instead of a stage which certain characters value highly in the matchup.

do u think that this would lead to mk players banning neutrals, everyone else banning siege, then delfino, then ultimately u get some garbage like lylat cruise or another stage where ultimately mk has an advantage in some way?

and you cant tell me green greens has no bannable strategy lol -_-

no offense to u

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

do u think that this would lead to mk players banning neutrals, everyone else banning siege, then delfino, then ultimately u get some garbage like lylat cruise or another stage where ultimately mk has an advantage in some way?

Define "neutrals". If by neutrals you mean "stages where ground-based, limited characters generally do their best and MK sucks" then I welcome you to stop using "neutral" when it clearly isn't. If by neutrals you mean "the most fair stage for the matchup" then yes, the larger the starter list, the less unbalanced it will be. MK will strike stages like FD or SV, that normally MK hates to play in matchups like that, while the Diddy/ICs/Falco will strike stages like Halberd, or Delfino where MK is decent but still not his best. You end up on a stage like Lylat or CS, where MK is not disadvantaged, but not heavily advantaged either.

and you cant tell me green greens has no bannable strategy lol -_-

no offense to u

Parts of group 3. Did I include Green Greens? I don't know enough about the stage to say either way on GG.

 

[AvaricePanda]

quick analysis (and some of my opinion) of stage counterpick groups:

Counter Pick Group One
Typically used as CPs, don't really have to go over this.

Counter Pick Group Two
These stages aren't legal everywhere but mostly are fine in that A) they provide consistency in results and B) there are no dominating stage strategies.

Pictochat:
Two main issues of the stage are randomness and stage hazards. There is no set order in which stage transformations appear, and some of the stage hazards (missles, cart, spikes from the bottom, spikes from the sides) can kill or at least influence gameplay. Overall though none of the stage transformations are too "broken". The cart is the only transformation that can kill and reasonably come into play (in the spikes transformation it's generally a bad idea to approach, but you can get u-throw or u-whatever kills from the cart). The missiles don't kill but do a set amount of damage. Despite the randomness, the stage usually provides consistent results and none of the hazards bar the cart do more than already existing ones (like on halberd or brinstar).

Rainbow Cruise:
I don't see the problem here and it's been legal like everywhere.

Pokemon Stadium 2:
The two "issues" are a change of physics and Marth's Dancing Blade glitch. The change of physics overall isn't a problem (IMO) and they don't last long. On the air transformation, don't jump vs. MK. On the ice one, everyone has increased traction (except maybe Ice Climbers although i might be completely wrong i only heard this as a rumor lol), which doesn't create any broken strategies in actual gameplay. The electric transformation doesn't pose any broken strategies either, although there's a glitch where if Marth uses dancing blade at the end of it (or maybe it's the ice one) he just goes flying off the screen and dies. For all of the other characters this is a fine CP (IMO).

Jungle Japes:
I don't think there's a definite "problem" on this stage aside from the klaptrap, but I just know Falco's really good here lol. The klaptrap comes every 10 seconds, and you can't land in the water to the left of the left most platform. Anywhere else, you'll be able to recover (even Oli with no Pikmin can recover just to the right of the left edge) but you can't spam jump, you have to time it.

Norfair:
The lava and possibly camping are "issues" here (I don't know too much about the stage to be honest lol). This stage is legal some places (maybe half). While the lava is avoidable if you're playing by yourself, in a match it will come to play. Some people find that it's not too intrusive, others think it is too intrusive.

Counter Pick Group 3
These stages are....eh. Each has plenty of "problems" and often on each stage zoning is a much more present factor in 1v1s than PvP factors are.

Green Greens
The two main problems are the bombs and apples (and the camera wtf). The bomb blocks spawn randomly, and the apples can spawn randomly as projectiles, food, or bombs. To be completely safe from the bombs, you have to do predictable things when passing over them (like jumping over and airdodging), and maybe it's just me but the camera's always wonky and I don't always see the bombs. This isn't a stage I know too much about tbh, but from what I've seen it doesn't always provide consistent results due to the bombs. Most people have a preference against it though.

Distant Planet
Main problems with this stage are a light circle, walkoff camping (and walkoff CGs), and very powerful stage positions.

-From the right edge to the bottom of the slope there's a light circle you can abuse to run away. Projectiles do spawn on the stage and they can help you combat this, but this is still a problem.

-The bottom of the slope is an ideal position to be in for a lot of characters, the best being MK. He's in an ideal position there because he can shark the main stage to the right and force you to approach down on him (which is the worst position to approach against him and most characters). Not many matches are played here trying to abuse all of the stage tactics, so as of now there's no way to know how "broken' it really is (this goes for a lot of the things on this stage actually).

-Some characters (Pikachu being the best but including Yoshi, Falco, others) can CG up the walk-off, and in general walk-off camping can be a problem (due to the walkoff always being there).

On paper this stage is pretty bad, but without many matches played on it it's hard to tell what works and what's just theorycraft. Overall, most people have a preference against this stage and it's hardly legal anywhere.

Luigi's Mansion
IMO this is the "worst" stage on this list (aside from maybe Pirate Ship). There are a number of problems with it, but the main thing is that you're either abusing a part of the stage, destroying the stage so your opponent can't abuse it, or waiting 20 seconds for the stage to respawn so you can abuse it again. If you aren't doing this, you're losing.

Overall though, not only is there a "cave of life" as well as a light circle, but many characters (namely MK and Olimar) have strategies using the bottom ceiling that equate to "free" damage. MK has tornado, Olimar has U-smash tricks (and a small distance top to bottom to approach him, giving him more of a boost). Ultimately, you have to destroy the stage to avoid these things, and the stage is only completely destroyed for 20 seconds before it's rebuilt (which is plenty of time to run away until you get a natural stage advantage).

The problem people see with this stage is that stage zoning becomes more important than most player vs player aspects of the game. I'm not nearly as worried about reading opponent habits and zoning against my opponent's character as I am making sure I'm in a spot to get 30% or making sure I destroy the stage so my opponent can't do that. This combined with a light circle and cave of life effect makes many people dislike the stage, and it's not legal in many places if any. However, this stage was legal for 2008-summer of 09 in Midwest and Texas for sure (as well as other regions probably), so it's not just theorycraft like Distant Planet — people have played and tested this stage already and as an overall consensus banned it.

Pirate Ship
The two main problems are rudder camping and water camping in general, I don't want to get too much into this though. Overall I think it should be banned though, as not only does rudder camping not constitute as stalling except for against some of the cast, but TL's and G&Ws water camping are also very advantageous positions they get from the stage.

Port Town Aero Drive
It has similar problems as Luigi's Mansion in that stage zoning takes more of an effect than other PvP elements. I think the biggest problem isn't the cars (although they are an issue—while they're perfectly avoidable they can come into play, kill at 60%, and port priority determines who dies from the cars in a grab lol) but the edge. Lack of ledge + a track that bounces you back up means that you're taking 50% when you're trying to recover. Many character's recovery options are severely reduced without a ledge.

Another problem is that the stage is inconsistent; sometimes the track will be there and sometimes it won't be and you'll die. In a way this provides inconsistent results.

The possibility of cars on some stops interrupts gameplay, and the lack of ledges + the track that bounces you makes you get punished severely when trying to recover. Otherwise, standard PvP elements occur. I think it's better than Mansion because of that, however many people think that being punished that hard for recovering and stage zoning on the moving platform being so important (because you don't want to be near the edge obviously) warrants a ban.

Yoshi's Island: Melee
I honestly don't know much about the stage and haven't seen it used in competitive matches at all. DMG brought up the problems of potential walk-off camping, walk-off CGs (with like Pikachu and Yoshi's), shenanigans with the slopes, and G&Ws/Marth's planking being an issue in the center pit. This stage generally isn't legal anywhere mostly because of preference, but it has the potential to have quite a bit of issues.






In my opinion, Counter Pick groups 1 and 2 should be legal while 3 should be banned. I can see why those group 3 stages are in that counterpick category and not banned, however I think that stage zoning shouldn't take importance over other PvP things in stages, and that seems to be the case with most group 3 stages. Some people disagree and are fine with heavy stage zoning elements, which is perfectly fine.

i dunno why i wrote all that lol

 

[Browny]

So I was thinking... the BBR likes to use these words

Intensive usage of the ledge by other characters might not fit in peoples' ideas of "fun", but has not been proven to be unbeatable

with no such strategy being proven to be overpowered

as a justification for making rule decisions, so I must ask, how exactly has sonics HA under the stage been physically proven to be unbeatable? We are told we must give these enw stages a shot as they really have not proven to be banworthy to any large extent, so why cant the same exist for this.

Of course if said definitive, undeniable proof exists that HA under the stage is gamebreaking, I'd be interested in seeing it, I'd change my stance on the matter

 

[ADHD]

What's wrong with Green Hill zone if PTAD is fine?

 

[Mikey7]

Define "neutrals". If by neutrals you mean "stages where ground-based, limited characters generally do their best and MK sucks" then I welcome you to stop using "neutral" when it clearly isn't. If by neutrals you mean "the most fair stage for the matchup" then yes, the larger the starter list, the less unbalanced it will be. MK will strike stages like FD or SV, that normally MK hates to play in matchups like that, while the Diddy/ICs/Falco will strike stages like Halberd, or Delfino where MK is decent but still not his best. You end up on a stage like Lylat or CS, where MK is not disadvantaged, but not heavily advantaged either.




Parts of group 3. Did I include Green Greens? I don't know enough about the stage to say either way on GG.

ah im just gona give up now this is so technical and tbh i just dont have the energy to debate about this when i could be playing lol

but just gona say everyone hates lylat, and thats def a good mk stage. and more poeple would have a better time fighting mk on a flat stage theyre comfortable with

holy geez thats technical though -_-

 

[Ussi]

So I was thinking... the BBR likes to use these words





as a justification for making rule decisions, so I must ask, how exactly has sonics HA under the stage been physically proven to be unbeatable? We are told we must give these enw stages a shot as they really have not proven to be banworthy to any large extent, so why cant the same exist for this.

Of course if said definitive, undeniable proof exists that HA under the stage is gamebreaking, I'd be interested in seeing it, I'd change my stance on the matter

Can't you spotdodge so Sonic goes down during HA or does he still target you/something?

 

[Espy Rose]

...

Ussi, we JUST FINISHED talking about this in several boards.

NO, you cannot spot dodge to avoid the problem.
As long as Sonic is touching the bottom of the stage during the initial start up animation, you're going to bounce off of the ceiling.

 

[Ussi]

Geez, several boards?

:x Sonic not known lol

 

[bigman40]

People bringing up Yoshi as a potential disruption for the walkoffs w/ slopes. The slopes greatly reduce th amount of CG-able characters, and he probably has no higher than 10 characters (this is a loose guess too) that he can CG to death. Yoshi can CG a good portion of the cast off flat walk offs, so I don't see Yoshi being any viable reason to use as a "problem" to a certain stage.

 

[DMG]

Walkoff CG's generally are not a problem because the characters who can abuse it also have clear counters to deal with. Dedede on most stages with a walkoff is still not gonna like facing Falco/IC's/Diddy/Olimar/etc. Same with Yoshi and others.

 

[ADHD]

Again, what's wrong with Green Hill Zone?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Again, what's wrong with Green Hill Zone?

Permanent straight walkoff. Too potent in many matchups. Can DDD CG through the slopings in the curve?

 

[sunshade]

Dedede is a very small issue with walk-offs.

Check out walk-off camping, it reduces combat to a tenth of its typical depth at least (and yes that number is pulled out of my ***).

I am going to quote myself from the stage legality philosophy discussion thread.

Let me give my opinion on what is bannable. Things which marginalize skill to an excessive extent are unacceptable in a competitive environment.

It is because of this standard that stages with walk-offs and circle camping are banned.

In the typical brawl match if you want to win you need to read your opponent about 20-30 times per match.

On stages which allow circle stall you need to read your opponent once and then you can enter an auto win advantage by running away. This changes the odds to you need a single read they need all of them.

In the case of walk-offs when a player preforms walk-off camping it becomes 1 read = one kill. So 3 reads = the end of the game which is 1/10th that of my estimate for a typical match.

In other cases such as Corneria, where there is an incredibly strong tactic the issues is that prediction can be made unimportant as a single option eliminates all opposing options (over centralization). When this single tactic (corneria's case fin camping) is used the the skill of the two parties is irrelevant as the advantage allows any player to defeat the other (similar to how whoever goes first in tic tac toe can only win or tie).

 

[Shaya]

Marth's dancing blade glitch is the complete opposite of "issue" on Pokemon Stadium 2.

The stage in general is one of marth's better "large" stages. And I love it to death.
You're literally saying the "bug" is an issue, like if meta knight decided to drill rush (side b, hurr getting close to the SAME THING HERE) from a ledge off stage without doing anything to stop himself from dying ....

I can't even consistently do it myself... hell I've never done it... I can make myself go off stage kinda far... but I've always been able to recover (even though it's a tight spot to be in over all).

ADHD, stop being a noob and just go play your group 1 stages.

Oh but really, everyone should have BF, YI, SV, PS1 and Lylat as their 5 stages in a 5 starter system, get rid of FD already

 

[-Vocal-]

Interesting note about the Marth Dancing Blade glitch: it occurs whenever he hits a ledge during the move with momentum. I don't know which specific part of the move causes it, but it appears as if any momentum inducing force will cause it. I saw a video where Link's boomerang was returning to Link (aka windbox phase) and Marth was performing Dancing Blade; as soon as Marth hit the edge, the windbox sent him flying. (This was on FD btw.) I'd be interested to see if it happens with others like Mario's F.L.U.D.D. and Squirtle's Water Gun (or whatever it's called) but it doesn't seem to be exclusive to PS2.

 

[Shaya]

tl;dr if it happens to you once whilst using marth, it isn't going to happen again unless you're a flippan idiot.

In the case of link's boomerang, I often abuse that "trick" to cross over long distances...
it's quite whacky / cute.

 

[-Vocal-]

tl;dr if it happens to you once whilst using marth, it isn't going to happen again unless you're a flippan idiot.

In the case of link's boomerang, I often abuse that "trick" to cross over long distances...
it's quite whacky / cute.

I think you misunderstand me. When the boomerang hit Marth, instead of pushing him as it would ordinarily, it caused the exact same glitch as on PS2 instead. If I'm not mistaken, that glitch can only occur on a ledge, which is what leads me to belive you misunderstood. I could be wrong though ^_^

 

[Shaya]

No, Marth can travel that long distance from a dancing blade interacting with boomerang in the air too...

At least, I'm pretty sure :D

 

[-Vocal-]

Hmm, interesting. This leads me to a theory for the explanation; perhaps it's the "in the air" that causes it.

Marth is on the ground performing Dancing Blade
Marth gets pushed across the ground by the boomerang
Marth reaches the point where a character would ordinarily enter the "falling" animation
Marth cannot enter the falling animation because he is performing Dancing Blade, is pushed off of the ledge, and this forces the glitch to occur.

It would also explantion PS2; those converyor belts dump you right into mid air. Only a theory. I don't know enough about states in the game to say for sure if this is even a possible explanation.

 

[deepseadiva]

This is so clean omg.

HTML is the ****.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh but really, everyone should have BF, YI, SV, PS1 and Lylat as their 5 stages in a 5 starter system, get rid of FD already

DEAR GOD THIS. If you're going to have FD on there, you should probably replace SV or PS1 with Brinstar, just to even **** out.

 

[MBlaze]

DEAR GOD THIS. If you're going to have FD on there, you should probably replace SV or PS1 with Brinstar, just to even **** out.

...........What?

 

[ADHD]

...........What?

I know, only someone who doesn't play the game would say stuff like that.

That's the only reason I could think of why.

 

[Shaya]

ADHD, wouldn't you like brinstar as a starter?

Pretty fair considering how broken falco is ... now.
And diddy too...
like when was the last time that meatheadknight won a tournament?

we need some starter stages that counter the broken characters in the metagame!
RULE SETS SHOULD ONLY BE MADE TO STOP THE BROKENEST CHARACTERS LIKE FARUCOOL AND DIDIDIDY (his chain grab is so broken, and then they gave him bananas ) FROM WINNING !

 

[MBlaze]

Pretty fair considering how broken falco is ... Now.
And diddy too...
Like when was the last time that meatheadknight won a tournament?

........what? O_o

EDIT: Oh just saw his edited post before he was being stupid, now just completely idiotic.

 

[ADHD]

ADHD, wouldn't you like brinstar as a starter?

Pretty fair considering how broken falco is ... now.
And diddy too...
like when was the last time that meatheadknight won a tournament?

we need some starter stages that counter the broken characters in the metagame!
RULE SETS SHOULD ONLY BE MADE TO STOP THE BROKENEST CHARACTERS LIKE FARUCOOL AND DIDIDIDY (his chain grab is so broken, and then they gave him bananas ) FROM WINNING !

I would prefer to replace it with the most interfering stage in the game, consisting of springs, treadmills, spikes, and no ledges. In this fashion, the versatile characters like wario will shine through because they are naturally better, and we have successfully nerfed the characters that weren't a problem in the first place.

 

[Shaya]

Oi... treadmills are a legit stage feature that allows for some advanced techniques. If Platform cancelling is allowed without banning smashville and lylat, than treadmills should be starter-stage worthy too!

I invented wavebelting (pretty much wave dashing on steroids) and stool-belting which is pretty much a guaranteed kill with the power of footstools and wavebelting combined.

(when I say I invented the broken stool-belting, I mean, I was there when it was created and used on me, but its fully legit and even the broken falco gets gimped from it; inb4 "laser limit is added to the BBR rule set 3.2")

seriously though, PS2 is a great stage, you should try it some time
And wavebelting is actually an extremely silly name to a viable notion in using what's available.

 

[ADHD]

Oi... treadmills are a legit stage feature that allows for some advanced techniques. If Platform cancelling is allowed without banning smashville and lylat, than treadmills should be starter-stage worthy too!

I invented wavebelting (pretty much wave dashing on steroids) and stool-belting which is pretty much a guaranteed kill with the power of footstools and wavebelting combined.

(when I say I invented the broken stool-belting, I mean, I was there when it was created and used on me, but its fully legit)

seriously though, PS2 is a great stage, you should try it some time
And wavebelting is actually an extremely silly name to a viable notion in using what's available.

Fine, but I would rather not have brinstar as a starter.

BPC just mad salty about FD being flat and non-interactive. It's his worst weakness. HEY BPC:

That'll keep em away for a while.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm all for Custom Stages. How is that going in the BBR?

 

[Shaya]

Fine, but I would rather not have brinstar as a starter.

BPC just mad salty about FD being flat and non-interactive. It's his worst weakness. HEY BPC:

That'll keep em away for a while.

Can YI be a starter when it's only 3 stages instead of FD?

*puppy dog eyes*

I'm sure your skilful attack has scared him away for a long time to come, no doubt.

 

[AvaricePanda]

YI can be game changing though.

Case in point back at a tourney in February. In pools, Fizzle's MK was going to gimp me for the win and I couldn't recover but then suddenly YI SUPPORT GHOST and I survived and won the game.

(or maybe that was a friendly, still lol)

and besides no one uses 3-stage starters anyway

 

[san.]

The closest thing I have to camping underneath the main platform on Distant Planet. XD Mr. Doom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr7DtTYoUxA

 

[demonictoonlink]

If I upload Challenge Log, can the BBR make it legal? It won't be a problem if we only ban MK from that stage. Possibly Lucario. Also people have to drop down from the falling blocks or it isn't fun.

 

[DMG]

Yeah. That was mild stuff San. Imagine me on that stage rofl.

IDK Maybe it's a hard concept to grasp, but generally you can tell if there will be a problem with the stage just by looking at the layout. For DP, there's a clear incentive to run around to the best camping/safest spot at the time during whatever period in the match. Most games will revolve around camping like that or stopping it from happening unless both characters absolutely blow in those aspects. Water also doesn't hurt the characters that abuse this stage the best because they happen to also be good at planking or moving around safely until it passes (Wario, MK, G&W being the main culprits).

 

[Ussi]

first rain appeared in like 3:30-4:00 minutes... Yea rain isn't stopping that.

Ike isn't even good at circle camping... I'd hate to see MK or Wario circle camp it. Hell lets see Sonic circle camp it.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

YI can be game changing though.

Case in point back at a tourney in February. In pools, Fizzle's MK was going to gimp me for the win and I couldn't recover but then suddenly YI SUPPORT GHOST and I survived and won the game.

(or maybe that was a friendly, still lol)

and besides no one uses 3-stage starters anyway

I like to use peach there. If I get gimped or simply recover too low, I just float down merrily until a ghost comes and picks me up. That method actually succeeds a lot.

 

[deepseadiva]

Definitive proof against Distant Planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUO8wEYF2ew

Definitive.

 

[Flayl]

Definitive proof against Distant Planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUO8wEYF2ew

Definitive.

Uh... No. Not really. Your brother didn't even try to use the pellets, made lots of bad decisions and chased you too predictably.

Yeah the stage is still suspicious but I'd like to see better proof.

 

[Espy Rose]

Where's the PK Thunder pressure?