Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[-Vocal-]

Yes he can stall with it because the hitbox covers his entire body and so it can interact with the bottom of the ceiling.

the myth originated because of idiots.

I feel bad for futhering it then I'm sorry.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I feel bad for futhering it then I'm sorry.

**** straight you should!

XD

 

[Espy Rose]

Why did people say you can just spot dodge it then

Because they made bold, outrageous claims without bothering to actually test them.

Hey! That sounds familiar, doesn't it?

 

[-Vocal-]

Because they made bold, outrageous claims without bothering to actually test them.

Hey! That sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Lol it does I thought it had been tested, which is the only reason I believed it. Once again, sorry; at least I know better now.

 

[Chis]

So Sonic's homing stall...

Legal or not legal?

 

[Flayl]

If APEX used this ruleset M2K would have been able to time out Brood to beat him in Winners Finals.

Instead, player skill prevailed.

 

[Browny]

Sonics stall has to be legal

I wrote this elsewhere as part of a bigger post

Spoiler

Consider the two situations, a character like Marth on the stage while MK sits on the edge spamming uair etc and him vs a sonic using HA under the stage. In both situations, the MK/Sonic have put themselves in a highly advantageous position where attempting to hit them is very risky. Marth can quite easily go after both characters and hit them but still risks a possible gimp if he messes up. So Marth has 2 options, attack them or leave them. This leaves 4 situations;

1. MK planking/scrooging - Marth does nothing
2. MK planking/scrooging - Marth attacks
3. HA under the stage - Marth does nothing
4. HA under the stage - Marth attacks

As it stands, 1 and 2 are perfectly legal while 3-4 are banned. Now what I want to know is how 1 and 3 are different. So different in fact, that one tactic is legal while one gives you an outright DQ. Can anyone prove that for as long as Marth refuses to attack in situation 1 and MK keeps on planking with his aerials, this is not stalling on the MK’s behalf? The answer to this question cannot be situation 2 (as in Marth is creating the stall, not MK) because in that case, that would render situation 4 legal. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the two. The argument that HA under the stage is done without intent of fighting and purely running down the clock is void for as long as situation 1 is legal, they are the same.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Perfect planking is stalling. Isn't it?
Non-perfect planking is beatable.

 

[Shaya]

If APEX used this ruleset M2K would have been able to time out Brood to beat him in Winners Finals.

Instead, player skill prevailed.

M2K timed out brood in winner's finals already, didn't he?

Wasn't the LGL also set to 50? Quite easy to avoid getting to 50 in 8 minutes.

 

[Flayl]

M2K timed out brood in winner's finals already, didn't he?

Wasn't the LGL also set to 50? Quite easy to avoid getting to 50 in 8 minutes.

You missed the point. He did it once, and with the BBR's recommended stage list and no LGL he would have been able to do it again.

 

[Shaya]

The LGL was set to 50.
He came no where close to 50 in his matches, or am I missing something?

Sorry I missed out on watching the amazing set (I'll watch it soon), all I heard was game 3? was a time out on rainbow cruise with M2K only having 25 ledge grabs.

-

So you're missing my point... it would seem... Maybe I'm wrong here?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Yes, game 3 was a timeout on RC with M2K only grabbing like 25 ledges. Metaknight does not need ledges to time people out. Furthermore, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with timing people out to begin with.

 

[Flayl]

Jesus ****

MK doesn't need ledges to time out in Rainbow Cruise

He needs them to do it in any other stage that was used at APEX. If BBR recommended rules were in place, he would either be able to pick a stage where he wouldn't even need the ledge or he would've been able to plank.

How is this hard to understand?

 

[Crow!]

(Note: below, any instance of "you" is the hypothetical "you", not Flayl specifically).

For illustration purposes, consider the following game situation (which is obviously not recommended for tournaments, but you could run a tournament with these settings if you really wanted to.)

Timer at 8 minutes, 3 stocks, Smash Balls on low. 15 seconds remain on the clock, Bowser vs Ganondorf, Bowser's ahead in percents.

Bowser gets the smash ball and activates his Giga Bowser transformation. He then stands still on the opposite side of the stage as his Ganondorf opponent and keeps Ganon away with properly spaced attacks.

Recall that Giga Bowser can, in theory, take damage. However, Bowser has, if he plays even close to properly, zero chance of losing here. Still, Bowser is choosing not to fish for his final KO - it just won't happen at all unless Ganon decides to go through the pointless excercise of trying to approach. Bowser is not, however, doing anything competitively wrong. The Bowser is demonstrating good player skill by recognizing a victory condition and utilizing it - a chess playing Smasher might announce "mate in 15 seconds" upon grabbing the ball here.

Same with planking. Meta Knight, once ahead in percents and at a fairly normal ledge, should not lose as long as he plays right, so the theory says. Most people don't like to watch a game whose result is known so long before it concludes, but competitively speaking, the player is doing nothing wrong here.

Like Giga Bowser facing a Ganon, on stages which feature ordinary ledges, the character Meta Knight is just really good and has the tools necessary to ensure he won't take damage as long as he doesn't epically mess up. You can try to hit a planking Meta Knight, of course, just as you can try to hit a defensive Giga Bowser when you are Ganon. You just won't win because the character is really good at being defensive.

Heck, suppose an Olimar were a better character than he is, so much so that him camping in the center of FD was completely unbeatable as long as the Olimar played properly. Would you ban standing still in an open area? I sure hope not. And there is no reason to prefer that players play on top of a stage rather than at the stage's ledge, which is what a ledge grab limit explicitly does.

"Mate in 6 minutes. Fight me, or else this will take the full 6 minutes. Your move." - Meta Knight

 

[MetalMusicMan]

It's not just on Rainbow Cruise that he doesn't need the ledges to go for timeouts, though. M2K also timed out Ally on Battlefield right before he fought Brood. Metaknight can time anyone out just about anywhere without using ledges. So can plenty of other characters, but MK is one of the most notable.

Also, again, there is nothing wrong with timing someone out. It happens all the time in just about any competitive game, regardless of genre.

 

[Crow!]

Also,

He needs them to do it in any other stage that was used at APEX.

Um, Smashville? Again, it doesn't really matter, but MK can circumvent a ledge grab limit in a variety of ways on several stages. Which is not a fault of the player, but instead is smart play, and a player should not be punished for doing it. If a specific stage makes a character utterly broken, it can be banned - but I'm guessing nobody here is going to seriously start advocating a ban on Smashville.

If his various defensive strategies make Meta Knight broken, we face the same situation as, say, the various overcentralizing strategies present on Bridge of Eldin. We either need to ban all stages which enable the broken strategy or we need to ban the character - we should never be banning the player's ability to play intelligently.

Trouble in this case is, removing all the stages "broken" by planking and scrooging strategies would leave us with... um, Norfair, Port Town: Aero Dive, and Yoshi's Island: Melee? Maybe Castle Siege and Delfino?

 

[smashmachine]

m2k times every1 out on RC
you should know this already

 

[-Vocal-]

Perfect planking is stalling. Isn't it?
Non-perfect planking is beatable.

It's a debate, and I know you love debates so you'll probably eat this one right up ^_^

(Note: below, any instance of "you" is the hypothetical "you", not Flayl specifically).

For illustration purposes, consider the following game situation (which is obviously not recommended for tournaments, but you could run a tournament with these settings if you really wanted to.)

Timer at 8 minutes, 3 stocks, Smash Balls on low. 15 seconds remain on the clock, Bowser vs Ganondorf, Bowser's ahead in percents.

Bowser gets the smash ball and activates his Giga Bowser transformation. He then stands still on the opposite side of the stage as his Ganondorf opponent and keeps Ganon away with properly spaced attacks.

Recall that Giga Bowser can, in theory, take damage. However, Bowser has, if he plays even close to properly, zero chance of losing here. Still, Bowser is choosing not to fish for his final KO - it just won't happen at all unless Ganon decides to go through the pointless excercise of trying to approach. Bowser is not, however, doing anything competitively wrong. The Bowser is demonstrating good player skill by recognizing a victory condition and utilizing it - a chess playing Smasher might announce "mate in 15 seconds" upon grabbing the ball here.

Same with planking. Meta Knight, once ahead in percents and at a fairly normal ledge, should not lose as long as he plays right, so the theory says. Most people don't like to watch a game whose result is known so long before it concludes, but competitively speaking, the player is doing nothing wrong here.

Like Giga Bowser facing a Ganon, on stages which feature ordinary ledges, the character Meta Knight is just really good and has the tools necessary to ensure he won't take damage as long as he doesn't epically mess up. You can try to hit a planking Meta Knight, of course, just as you can try to hit a defensive Giga Bowser when you are Ganon. You just won't win because the character is really good at being defensive.

Heck, suppose an Olimar were a better character than he is, so much so that him camping in the center of FD was completely unbeatable as long as the Olimar played properly. Would you ban standing still in an open area? I sure hope not. And there is no reason to prefer that players play on top of a stage rather than at the stage's ledge, which is what a ledge grab limit explicitly does.

"Mate in 6 minutes. Fight me, or else this will take the full 6 minutes. Your move." - Meta Knight

I can appreciate this analogy.

However, in this scenario, all characters have access to the Smash Ball. In our current competitive scene, only Metaknight has access to invincible ledge play.

The player may not be doing anything wrong, but frankly I think it's wrong to allow them that possibility in the first place. Would you, for instance, allow Bowser and Bowser alone the privilege of having a Final Smash? Such a tactic sounds quick broken if I'm not mistaken.

I do agree with your assessment that banning ledge play is not a good idea. That would seem to leave us with only one way to remove Metaknight's invincible ledge play from competitive Smash, and I don't have to type it out in words.

 

[BSP]

Crow, what do you think about Sonic's HA under the stage? Stalling or legal?

 

[Flayl]

There are some stuff with Crow's post that I'm pretty sure are just wrong (like Olimar not being able to handle scrooging on Smasvhille), but I'm hopeful someone who plays in nationals over there in the USA will back me up.

 

[lordhelmet]

If APEX used these stages, game 5 Brood banned RC and M2K would've taken him to Port Town. Good Games.

Further more there was no Dave's Stupid Rule so he could've taken him back to RC.

 

[Espy Rose]

You missed the point. He did it once, and with the BBR's recommended stage list and no LGL he would have been able to do it again.

So...what exactly is the problem with that?

@lordhelmet: Wrong. There was an additional stage ban rule in effect at Apex that allowed Brood to ban Rainbow Cruise.

 

[lordhelmet]

So...what exactly is the problem?

@lordhelmet: Wrong. There was an additional stage ban rule in effect at Apex that allowed Brood to ban Rainbow Cruise.

Not that I heard of. So what two stages did Brood ban then?

I'm not trying to make an argument I'm just stating the facts.

EDIT:

I'm pretty sure you didn't read my full post because what you said doesn't really make sense so please elaborate.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm pretty sure you didn't read my full post because what you said doesn't really make sense so please elaborate.

Further more there was no Dave's Stupid Rule so he could've taken him back to RC.

I'm just focused on that. I don't care about the rest of your post, since there's nothing wrong with taking him to PTAD and winning there.

At apex, there was an interesting rule that determined the Japanese to fly to america. The rule is " in a bo5 set, you get to ban a stage every time you lose" which means in a bo5, you get to have 2 bans.

I'm not entirely sure what Brood banned in the first match, but before the 5th, M2K was going to counterpick back to Rainbow Cruise before this rule came into effect.

 

[lordhelmet]

He probably banned Brinstar or something.

But w/e not gonna argue I just rolflmao'd at "it's ok to get a free win on PTAD."

 

[Espy Rose]

You might as well be wearing a giant "I'm an instigator" sticker on your forehead.

lol.

 

[lordhelmet]

I would but I don't have any giant stickers on me

 

[Crow!]

The player may not be doing anything wrong, but frankly I think it's wrong to allow them that possibility in the first place. Would you, for instance, allow Bowser and Bowser alone the privilege of having a Final Smash? Such a tactic sounds quick broken if I'm not mistaken.

Allow me to slightly change the hypothetical to make the analogy more straightforward, rather than worrying about akward "character X is allowed to do actions A and B but not anyone else" situations, which is exactly the type of the special treatment we're explicitly trying to avoid.

Suppose Bowser had the inherent ability to use his Final Smash, and no other character did. If this ability caused Bowser to be broken (regardless of whether this is due to Giga Bowser's ability to score KOs or just his stupidly good defensive game), I would prefer to ban Bowser rather than requiring Bowser players to be scrubs and not use that excellent move.

Crow, what do you think about Sonic's HA under the stage? Stalling or legal?

Depends on the matchup and the stage. Vs R.O.B. on Smashville? Clearly legal (and, in fact, a terrible idea!). Vs Ganon underneath something more akward (maybe FD?), where Ganon can't even reach Sonic if Sonic maneuvers himself properly? Clearly banned. A case where one can suicide in order to successfully hit Sonic, but as a result will lose because Sonic started the procedure behind a stock? Now it's not so clear, and like the utterly unenforceable dimensional cape extension rule (that's a debate for another day), TOs are just lucky there aren't many people actively trying to push the rules in this area.

A cleaner example to study is parking yourself underneath the rudder on Pirate Ship (say, using G&W's DAir). If the rudder-staller's opponent has a projectile that can be angled downward sufficiently, it's not stalling (and it is, in fact, a terrible idea!). If the opponent has no such attack, then it is stalling. If a TO is to include Pirate Ship, he must be prepared to enforce the stalling rule if someone is enough of a jerk to break it in one of the matchups where it cannot be stopped - this is the main reason why Pirate Ship wound up in the counter/banned category.

 

[DMG]

Got back from vacation. Saw this revision. Good idea.

I would have Brinstar in the same group as RC TBH. That is my only real gripe so far. Frigate is fine in 1, Brinstar isn't as "nonchalant" and looks more like the stages with RC in Group 2. I also think FD should be suitable for a 5 stage starter list, but that's just my personal thought on that.

LGL is tricky, but I fully agree with the stance of discouraging using one that targets everyone in the cast. I also agree that if MK is a problem on the edge, that trying to limit his usage of the edge might not be the best solution.

 

[ADHD]

If these rules were in effect mew2king would have won the tournament, duh.

 

[Shaya]

How so?

Yeah maybe if apex used all counter pick stages in every group...
maybe...

on the other hand... brood would have had luigi's mansion.... which with his lack of experience on due to being from a region with no counter picks would have instantly shown the world how broken it is with olimar, amirite?

 

[Browny]

A case where one can suicide in order to successfully hit Sonic, but as a result will lose because Sonic started the procedure behind a stock?

lol @ how similar this is to approaching IC's, or DDD as DK.

 

[Mikey7]

question: NOT trying to flame


so why would any TO pick anything besides 5 starters + counter pick group 1?


kinda trying to flame but not really:

.......and the rest of those groups are just hilarious lol. which top USA placers had input on the stage list? ...if its metaknights i can understand

 

[Espy Rose]

I used a 9 stage Counterpick list in my last local event, and counterpick groups 1 and 2, while also allowing Port Town, Distant Planet, and Green Greens from group 3.

Only one person made any sort of deal about it. Everyone else gave positive feedback.

 

[Spelt]

I'm not entirely sure what Brood banned in the first match, but before the 5th, M2K was going to counterpick back to Rainbow Cruise before this rule came into effect.

Wasn't there the "If you've already gone to a stage you can't go to that stage again during the same set unless both players agree to it" rule preventing M2K from going to RC a second time anyway?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Dave's stupid rule was not in affect.

 

[Mikey7]

I used a 9 stage Counterpick list in my last local event, and counterpick groups 1 and 2, while also allowing Port Town, Distant Planet, and Green Greens from group 3.

Only one person made any sort of deal about it. Everyone else gave positive feedback.

im gonna look up the results thread to see who was there + how many ppl

and wasnt xyros rulesets in late 2008 as liberal as this so would texas be kinda used to it, think that still has an effect?

 

[Tesh]

DSR was not in effect, but 2 bans were given. Brood blocked RC and Brinstar and beat M2K on Delfino (M2K's CP). It doesn't really matter if brood would be able to take M2K to Mansion. He won BOTH times he cped BATTLEFIELD.

What we could infer from this is that on MK's 3 best stages (maybe), he was clearly beatable on his 3rd best. In a 2/3 set it won't matter if MK has more than 2 GREAT stages. But with more matches in a set, more good stages become a factor.

M2K would have easily won in PTAD, but brood didn't need anything except battlefield (his 3rd best?) to beat M2K. Although, Japan only plays 3 stages, so who knows how well an American Oli would do on MKs cps with Brood's skill level.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

question: NOT trying to flame


so why would any TO pick anything besides 5 starters + counter pick group 1?


kinda trying to flame but not really:

.......and the rest of those groups are just hilarious lol. which top USA placers had input on the stage list? ...if its metaknights i can understand

Well, first of all, every stage in groups 1 and 2 (and most of group 3, like PTAD) are legitimate counterpick stages with no truly bannable strategies. There is no reason to ban them, therefore we don't ban them; the same way there is no reason to ban FD, therefore we don't ban FD. Seems pretty **** straightforward to me.
Second of all, the more starters, the closer you get to an even stage on game one, instead of a stage which certain characters value highly in the matchup.

 

[-Vocal-]

Allow me to slightly change the hypothetical to make the analogy more straightforward, rather than worrying about akward "character X is allowed to do actions A and B but not anyone else" situations, which is exactly the type of the special treatment we're explicitly trying to avoid.

Suppose Bowser had the inherent ability to use his Final Smash, and no other character did. If this ability caused Bowser to be broken (regardless of whether this is due to Giga Bowser's ability to score KOs or just his stupidly good defensive game), I would prefer to ban Bowser rather than requiring Bowser players to be scrubs and not use that excellent move.

That's a cleaner example of what I was trying to say - I agree with you