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Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Let me explain it this way. How polar is FD? How much do grounded chars love it, how much do aerial chars hate it? Is this a good starter stage? Now compare to Brinstar. And let's remember the following, shall we:
-Brinstar has no randomness whatsoever
-It has no excessively obtuse elements
-Only hazard won't kill you until like 200%
Nothing in there that pins it as a counterpick. So what makes it a counterpick? Oh right, it's stupidly polar and something that a lot of characters will automatically ban in several matchups. See also: FD.
If you're going to have a 5-stage starter list, it should look something like this:
-BF
-Frigate
-Halberd/CS
-LC
-SV
None of those stages are excessively polar. You can always strike to a stage that is at least not horrible (relatively) for your character, regardless of who you are. Notice: no matter who you are up against, you're going to be striking to a stage they aren't wonderful on. Facing MK? You can force him to YI (not great for him), BF (if he wants it), or LC (if you don't want to face him elsewhere; this is not a really good MK stage, this is an average MK stage). Facing ICs? Again, you can force them to an average stage for them. Compare this to a 5-stage starter list with both FD and SV on it, where these are essentially forced strikes against grounded characters (you know, the same way having Brinstar or Norfair in the list would force a strike against MK, Wario, or G&W) and one of them is virtually an auto-ban against them.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10832913&postcount=2056 <- 9-starter is still good for ground chars
Read that.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I can only wait till more of these flood in.
Oh, and I kinda agree with BPC on "If FD is starter then so is Brinstar." FD heavily favors ground characters, and Brinstar is the opposite. Kind of an extreme example, but you can get the comparison.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
Strangely enough, he was able to actually reach Meno, even though he was camping it out.
Oh, and the rain came out at 7:23. Just sayin'.
Luxor
Smash Champion
BPC's points are all correct.
-CS (pretty neutral)
-LC (slightly air biased)
-PS1/PS2 (pretty neutral)
-SV (somewhat ground biased)
-BF (neutralish)
You know what I would like to see is this hypothetical air-ground stage continuum filled out with real stages.
Eh. Frigate is a decent CP for many characters (Lucario, Snake) and an autoban for others (Olimar, even if he does good on the flipside); that's fine for 7 or 9 stage starters but a bit much for a 5 starter list IMO. I'd rather see
-CS (pretty neutral)
-LC (slightly air biased)
-PS1/PS2 (pretty neutral)
-SV (somewhat ground biased)
-BF (neutralish)
You know what I would like to see is this hypothetical air-ground stage continuum filled out with real stages.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Lol I love your signature especially since I'm the one that created it ^_^
I kind of think the five starters they have listed in 3.0/3.1 work well too.
Luxor
Smash Champion
Yeah, that list is pretty balanced with regards to air vs. ground. I might switch up Delfino to offset FD on a 7-starter list, or vice-versa, so that with each expansion you get one new aerial stage and one new grounded stage.BBR 3.1 said:
I was really impressed with the new ruleset, actually; I was surprised anyone didn't like it. I understand Bowser/Gannon mains whining, but the reasoning behind it won me over. You go BBR :D
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
The fact that acid doesn't kill doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's a "combo move", it starts, continues, and finishes sometimes. It helps with recoveries and more stuff.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Who said it didn't exist? I think I'm missing the point of your post.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Was more in response to cadet who ignores acid alltogether by saying it doesn't kill till 200+
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Good point. Acid combos Oli to hell and back >.<
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Pit too, to some degree. Other characters like ZSS, Kirby and GaW can also take advantage of the sharking properties.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I think you missed the point of my post...
Leaning grounded.
Definitely grounded. Have you seen the kind of stuff that you can do under that platform?
Amen.
Not that aerial. It's certainly not on the aerial half, or if it is, around where BF is.
GROUNDED. PS1 is pretty heavily grounded.
Just mentioning this.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I'd have to disagree with you about BF, YI, and Lylat.
Platforms are always good for aerial characters. Why? Where do ground characters want to be? On the ground. If they're on a platform, they'll have to go through the air to get there, and aerial characters can put SOOO much pressure when someone is on a ledge above them - just look at the shield **** Metaknight can do with Uair>Uair>Nair. That's why BF seems neutralish to me, and Lylat is great for aerial characters because they can SH aerials on any one of those platforms. The same can be said for YI, but can change depending on the tilt, which makes it neutralish.
Just my thoughts, though I haven't thought very hard about it.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Luxor
Smash Champion
You're late lol.
As far as Brinstar goes, isn't it already pretty well established that it's polarizing? Get past that. What BPC was saying (correctly) is that iff polarizing stages are present in a starter list, they need to be present in equal and opposite numbers because of this amazing post you should all read.
That's it. I don't give a baboon's behind if Brinstar happens to have hazards or not (as long as they're not totally OP) or whether it allows sharking. All that matters is where it falls on the continuum that T-block hypothesized; you have to add a grounded stage for every aerial one.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I agreed with him from the beginning
lilseph
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 971
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Um, you missed this.
Luxor
Smash Champion
When you get towards the middle, the advantages or disadvantages for either side even out- i.e. the median stage approaches a true "neutral," even if such a thing does not exist. Heck, infinity doesn't exist either, but you can approach that.
I'm going to order the new starter stages from most to least ground based:
Grounded
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Aerial
I kind of got lost towards the middle there because it's pretty ambiguous as to whom PS1, CS, BF, and Lylat favor- they are pretty "neutral." (Please help correct me, guys.) Would ICs really mind playing MK on PS1? Not really- There's only two plats for him to hide on! Would MK mind playing them there? No! He has two different plats to hide on and a bunch of transformations that are in his favor. Towards the middle of the list a near "neutral" is achieved. IMO, we want to start the smaller starter lists with the more "neutral" stages, so 3-starter would be like
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Battlefield
Castle Siege
Battlefield
, 5-starter like
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
, and 7-starter like
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
And now since I know someone will say "hey luxor why don't you just pick one stage in the middle and start EVERY match there," we don't do that because of benefits particular stages give to particular characters. BF is pretty "neutral," but gives an extra edge to Marth that his/her air/ground balance doesn't predict. If CS was the "one" stage, D3 would be buffed. You therefore want the stagelist to be balanced with respect to air vs. ground but large to eliminate outliers like these; that's why the 9-starter list is probably the best option.
/wall of text and colors
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Luxor, I have only begun seeing your posts today, but I think I love you. (I also like your signature.)
That is one of the most logical ways that someone could have phrased what I already thought; you've also kind of convinced me of CS's possibility as a starter (though factors like the statues and walkoffs on the second transformation still hold me back). Nothing's perfect, but that's the reason we try get as close to a neutral in the middle as possible, and your post explains that quite well.
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,861
- NNID
- RicardoAvocado
There certainly seems to be a lot more freedom with this list...looks nice though. I'll have to start relearning some stages it would seem xD
What was the difference between 3.0 and 3.1? I wouldn't mind knowing due to all the chatter over it cause I was away when this was first posted
What was the difference between 3.0 and 3.1? I wouldn't mind knowing due to all the chatter over it cause I was away when this was first posted
I specify the main differences within the first few posts.
Luxor: That is kind of misleading. The polar opposite of an aerial stage wouldn't be final destination, it would be a large stage that had hazards that only appeared in the air.
I know you're doing it in relative terms, but I thought I should say something anyway.
I know you're doing it in relative terms, but I thought I should say something anyway.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
There isn't any, outside of how they formatted it
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
But those don't exist in Brawl, not that I can remember anyways. This continuum is based off of stages in the game.
Also with some talk on Distant Planet...
I'm not exactly for the stage being legal in singles (in my region it isn't), but I can blatantly see that from the two videos posted that you guys are doing it wrong.
The point on the slope that is under the main platform is not only a "camping base" but also an approaching one.
You fight for that position, and the one who's attempting to circle camp (if they are) will attempt to secure it. However that limits their movement. Once in that vicinity, a lot of characters have nearly complete access to the rest of the stage nearly instantaneously. People hanging on the ledge are free to have projectiles thrown at them... characters with good mid air jumps can jump out and cut, literally, through the middle of the circle to catch someone who's committed themselves to go upwards.
It's a counter pick in nature... not all characters have the tools to be successful on it at all. Even though the pellets are helpful for those characters, they aren't exactly reliable enough.
Characters like ROB, Falco, Diddy have strong enough control from the hot spot to cancel out someone's attempted circle movement. Fox due to his fair rising has a couple of strategies as well.
meta knight obviously has shuttle loop and uair... which is all he needs to stop any other character from running in circles whilst he's around.
Snake can hurl grenades in a lob shot such that the cover the ledge and going "above".
However, I'm not sure about Wario on this stage in terms of being able to circle camp... his general uber aerial mobilty plus biking could make things exceedingly awkward and I'd need to see how wario vs anyone is played out against people who know the stage
my character opinions are from what I've seen and what not. I used to play on this stage a lot.
Let's just say it's not the best for marf.
I think the stage is fairer than Jungle Japes though. King of the castle extreme with no real disadvantaged positions for some characters at all. In comparison to one hot spot that upon escaping from is... no longer putting yourself somewhere safe... nice strategies that can have you live for longer periods of time (hey guys, whos DI'n DOWN so they can tech the slope?); nothing that can result in instant death other than the bulborb which is either an object your character can handle going towards or one you need to avoid completely.
Jungle Japes "omg I got hit into the water, 90% of the cast just lost their stock"... and SIX ledges... lol ledges.
I'm not exactly for the stage being legal in singles (in my region it isn't), but I can blatantly see that from the two videos posted that you guys are doing it wrong.
The point on the slope that is under the main platform is not only a "camping base" but also an approaching one.
You fight for that position, and the one who's attempting to circle camp (if they are) will attempt to secure it. However that limits their movement. Once in that vicinity, a lot of characters have nearly complete access to the rest of the stage nearly instantaneously. People hanging on the ledge are free to have projectiles thrown at them... characters with good mid air jumps can jump out and cut, literally, through the middle of the circle to catch someone who's committed themselves to go upwards.
It's a counter pick in nature... not all characters have the tools to be successful on it at all. Even though the pellets are helpful for those characters, they aren't exactly reliable enough.
Characters like ROB, Falco, Diddy have strong enough control from the hot spot to cancel out someone's attempted circle movement. Fox due to his fair rising has a couple of strategies as well.
meta knight obviously has shuttle loop and uair... which is all he needs to stop any other character from running in circles whilst he's around.
Snake can hurl grenades in a lob shot such that the cover the ledge and going "above".
However, I'm not sure about Wario on this stage in terms of being able to circle camp... his general uber aerial mobilty plus biking could make things exceedingly awkward and I'd need to see how wario vs anyone is played out against people who know the stage
my character opinions are from what I've seen and what not. I used to play on this stage a lot.
Let's just say it's not the best for marf.
I think the stage is fairer than Jungle Japes though. King of the castle extreme with no real disadvantaged positions for some characters at all. In comparison to one hot spot that upon escaping from is... no longer putting yourself somewhere safe... nice strategies that can have you live for longer periods of time (hey guys, whos DI'n DOWN so they can tech the slope?); nothing that can result in instant death other than the bulborb which is either an object your character can handle going towards or one you need to avoid completely.
Jungle Japes "omg I got hit into the water, 90% of the cast just lost their stock"... and SIX ledges... lol ledges.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
From the OP:
That being said, I'm still on the fence about that issue, so I'm kinda just for keeping a LGL. I do understand where the BBR is coming on their anti-LGL policy, though.
Hasn't planking already proven to be technically unbeatable? Judging by this statement, MK should already be banned according to the BBR.
That being said, I'm still on the fence about that issue, so I'm kinda just for keeping a LGL. I do understand where the BBR is coming on their anti-LGL policy, though.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Is this really what the nature of our competition is supposed to reflect? Someone has out-played you, so you take them somewhere that their character must overcome mountains to succeed?
I've been thinking a lot about this lately, and I still have to solidify exactly what it is that I'm trying to say, but when using a quirky stage to beat someone as opposed to beating them in combat becomes a large focus, we must ask ourselves what is really competitive here. I've begun to think that our stage lists run the risk of placing less importance on being the best player and more importance on knowing how to abuse a unique stage's qualities (as opposed to qualities common between them, such as ledges and platforms). I'm just beginning to question all of this...
Luxor
Smash Champion
They really should have just recommended an MK-specific LGL, it's really the only thing that works while still letting G&W/Pit/Rob have their fun.
@Vocal- Stages are an inherent part of smash. This isn't Street Fighter Bros. Brawl. The PvPvS dynamic is something this game has that sets it apart from other fighters; see BPC's sig for further details. As far as your point about CPs... if you can win Game 1 without any extra "advantage," you can always just blow Game 2 and r@@@pe Game 3 on your CP. The system balances itself, since it's impossible to win without trumping your opponent in at least one neutral or disadvantaged scenario.
@Vocal- Stages are an inherent part of smash. This isn't Street Fighter Bros. Brawl. The PvPvS dynamic is something this game has that sets it apart from other fighters; see BPC's sig for further details. As far as your point about CPs... if you can win Game 1 without any extra "advantage," you can always just blow Game 2 and r@@@pe Game 3 on your CP. The system balances itself, since it's impossible to win without trumping your opponent in at least one neutral or disadvantaged scenario.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
But what if someone is off of their game during Game One? For some characters it becomes nearly impossible to recover after that...is this even fair? Wouldn't it be better to play on a stage where they at least stand a chance of showing that they are a better player even though they didn't show it during the first match?
I understand that certain stages are always going to favor certain characters. Marths love Battlefield and Falcos love Final Destination for a reason. However, when we start getting into things like "MK loves Brinstar because he can always stay in the air" and "Olimar loves Distant Planet because his tether gives him ridiculous mobility" and "Pikachu likes PTAD because he doesn't need a ledge to recover," I feel like it gets just a tad out of hand.
I need to think a lot more about the matter.
Why does the rule set cater to someone who only uses one character?
that's stupid.
the best player wins with this rule set.
Your ideals of what the best player is is different from what it really is.
If I say "distant planet" and you're using Ganondorf (bad example, he does okay here) and stay ganondorf, that is your problem, that is your weakness, I am abusing it.
However, if I say "distant planet" and you were using ganondorf and go "well my character doesn't do well here, best use my brain and pick ROB" than you are playing to win.
Rule sets being shaped because someone doesn't want to play to win to the full extent available to them is silly.
But it really comes down to what people consider winning in this game, what is the goal of competitive smash?
People still seem to think that anything that favours time outs, a completely fair and readily available method of winning the match that has been apart of every competitive fighting game like EVER should be instantly removed/nerfed/banned/ridiculed/etc.
Distant Planet is a chase game; you have to be smart about reading your opponent's movements, as your opponent has various options in doing so. The way the stage centralises this bait and run game is in my opinion, fair, as it is beatable by many characters in the cast... unlike how I feel about Jungle Japes.
that's stupid.
the best player wins with this rule set.
Your ideals of what the best player is is different from what it really is.
If I say "distant planet" and you're using Ganondorf (bad example, he does okay here) and stay ganondorf, that is your problem, that is your weakness, I am abusing it.
However, if I say "distant planet" and you were using ganondorf and go "well my character doesn't do well here, best use my brain and pick ROB" than you are playing to win.
Rule sets being shaped because someone doesn't want to play to win to the full extent available to them is silly.
But it really comes down to what people consider winning in this game, what is the goal of competitive smash?
People still seem to think that anything that favours time outs, a completely fair and readily available method of winning the match that has been apart of every competitive fighting game like EVER should be instantly removed/nerfed/banned/ridiculed/etc.
Distant Planet is a chase game; you have to be smart about reading your opponent's movements, as your opponent has various options in doing so. The way the stage centralises this bait and run game is in my opinion, fair, as it is beatable by many characters in the cast... unlike how I feel about Jungle Japes.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
This is why I said I needed to think a lot more on the matter
Your opinions are definitely interesting though, and they definitely give me more of an idea of what exactly I need to ponder upon.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
the front is so much better now, thank you