Official BBR Tier List v5

[da K.I.D.]

@ the yoshi matchup discussion

sonic has pretty terrible match up spreads but is still considered a good amount better than yoshi.

id be willing to bet that yoshi has a better matchup spread than sonic does.

in which case, yoshi mains (along with the mains of about 3/4th of the characters in this game) seriously need to stop lying to themselves and inflating their matchup numbers.

thats why Im normally against using matchup numbers as an indication for things.

 

[Ripple]

this PSC thing doesn't exist.

shield drop faster. there is no change. you can do the exact same thing with shield drop

 

[BSP]

The ones in the sonic boards are pretty old though.

 

[Mr.-0]

Eh, but infinite, tornado vs grounded opponent is still a fairly common MK approach, and tornado is a pretty broken move as a whole. PSC, if it does become that common, essientially shuts it dwon unless your opponent is in the air. And against Snake, for instance, moves like holding a grenade shut it down there, so I can really see this PSC thing buffing Snake and making MK not as good, or at least tornado not as good. Think about it, tornado to PSC snake = utilt, tornado in the air against a Snake holding a grenade= uair or bair. Ouch.

Edit: Ripple, did you watch the vids? It looked to me like it allowed for a near instant move out of a power shield against moves like tornado. I'd be sad if it was just, like... nothing much really lol. But from looking at the vid, it definitely looked like characters like Snake could abuse it.

 

[bigman40]

Mr.-0, its a regular PS. Stop calling it PSC when there's no cancel that can happen.

 

[Mr.-0]

? Bigman, it cancels the sheild drop animation, I think. I'm not exactly sure, It just looked like it was helluva lot faster than a normal power shieild, and allowed for moves to interrruput MK's nado.

 

[NickRiddle]

Well, M2K and alot of other good Metaknights spam the tornado in a variety of matchups, particularly the Snake matchup, though I haven't seen M2K do it since MLG colombus/orlando. Still though, it renders tornado a much worse move, seeing as how it's now very risky to approach with it, expecially against characters like Snake with broken tilts.

And delta: I've seen many signatures like that lately, where tf do u get them?

Except, good MKs do high-tornadoes... which doesn't get hit by PSC > grab/jab.
Only people who can PSC > u-tilt gain a big advantage with that.

I mean, it'll work on "normal" tornadoes, but... yeah...

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah he does, ask pretty much any other Yoshi main >.>

And lucario isn't COMPLETE ****, we still have options, setups, and speed to position and such.

Otherwise, sure, I guess.

EDIT: @-0: They were gifts.

No he doesn't. Maybe once we get a lead, but the problem is getting that. It's pretty hard to get in safely on a good ICs player.

Lucario blocks all our conventional kill options. This means he lives long. This means he's at high aura for a REALLY long time. That's REALLY bad. We also don't really have a good answer to Fsmash spacing, which is awful.

@ the yoshi matchup discussion

sonic has pretty terrible match up spreads but is still considered a good amount better than yoshi.

id be willing to bet that yoshi has a better matchup spread than sonic does.

in which case, yoshi mains (along with the mains of about 3/4th of the characters in this game) seriously need to stop lying to themselves and inflating their matchup numbers.

thats why Im normally against using matchup numbers as an indication for things.

Actually, I tend to do really well in tournaments until I hit MK. The problem with Yoshi is that MK ***** the **** out of him. He has absolutely no options in that MU. XD

 

[Ripple]

? Bigman, it cancels the sheild drop animation, I think. I'm not exactly sure, It just looked like it was helluva lot faster than a normal power shieild, and allowed for moves to interrruput MK's nado.

there is no shield drop lag when you PS. GIMR isn't doing something right.

rewatch the video, and watch the first up-tilt. after the PS the up-tilt looks delayed as hell. I know for a fact you can do anything frame 4 out of a PS.

there is no 7 frames of lag

 

[bigman40]

? Bigman, it cancels the sheild drop animation, I think. I'm not exactly sure, It just looked like it was helluva lot faster than a normal power shieild, and allowed for moves to interrruput MK's nado.

Anytime you PS, you can do a move instantly after the hitlag. Shield drop is negated when a PS is done, so unless there's another term to name PS, there's nothing else that can be canceled.

 

[C.J.]

Which is why this helps characters w/ low crouches the most. ZSS/Snake/Sheik can duck forcing the MK to lower the nado so they can jab/grab it. @ nick

 

[BSP]

-0 i think you're overating tornado a tiny bit, at least on the ground. Most characters have something they can do to knock MK right out of it if he just tornado's straight at them while they're standing in the nuetral position. Or, they can just shield, or just dodge. Basically, most people have an answer for it.

 

[Mr.-0]

Eh, ur right. Still, Snake, like you mentioned indirectly, will pwn with it. PSC> u-tilt. Dang, that looks nice when I read it.

Well, even if it only works on "normal" tornadoes, It'll still boost Snake up. A free up-tilt is a free... well... how much damage does that thing do? And if i's like 105%, than a PSC for Snake is like a free kill.

And ripple/bigman, I have no idea how it works, bring it up with godismyrock. To me, It just seemed like it made the moves come out like instantly.

Edit: Okaaaay, lots of posts above me, this last one was directed to Riddle.

BSP-Tornado eats shield, lasts way to long to doge. Most characters do have some Nado deterrent, but it's sitll really good. If PSC is real, than it kills normal tornadoes, and even some high ones for characters like Snake with awesome u-tilts. Anyway, little as it may be, I'd love for a little edge on nado. Even if Nado isn't that good.

Bigman/Ripple-Now I'm confused. So, you're saying, PSC is the same thing as PS? If that's the case, then I just got hyped for nothing.

 

[Ripple]

Bigman/Ripple-Now I'm confused. So, you're saying, PSC is the same thing as PS? If that's the case, then I just got hyped for nothing.

yes, its just another (slower) way to PS

 

[Pikabunz]

If you hit Lucas's Rope Snake as soon as it tethers the edge, it counts as you hitting Lucas.

Lucas' rope snake counts as being part of Lucas' hurtbox so when he uses it, hitting the snake hits Lucas.

Not true exactly. When Lucas retracts himself to the ledge, his big head goes above the stage for a few frames and that's what you're hitting.

Also, Ripple is right. PSC doesn't exist. PS'ing has always canceled shield drop lag. What'd you think PS'ing was for?

 

[_Kadaj_]

What you're doing is buffering actions out of the PS which is a faster and effective way to punish. It's called PSC because the buffered input cancels out the shield drop visibly

 

[bigman40]

The problem is that you can't buffer anything out of a PS (or PSC). He's mashing the A button to get the move out on the first possible frame he's in control of his character. The game's engine literally will not allow you to do anything until hitlag is over.

 

[_Kadaj_]

You're buffering the move out of the shield drop lol

It's kinda like BDacusing out of Shield drop

 

[bigman40]

You have instant movement from a PS the very second hitlag is done. You don't have any buffering available because shield lag is negated also with shield drop (if you look at it, you can see yourself dropping the shield, but anything you do during the shield drop goes straight into the move). BDACUS is doable from regular shield drop because you have 7 frames to buffer. PSC is no different than PS.

 

[Mr.-0]

I... you know what, I don't really care. Someone should go lock that thread, way to hype torture GIMR

 

[GimR]

@Bigman: how sure are you that you can do an attack during the shield drop animation after power shielding?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Not true exactly. When Lucas retracts himself to the ledge, his big head goes above the stage for a few frames and that's what you're hitting.

Also, Ripple is right. PSC doesn't exist. PS'ing has always canceled shield drop lag. What'd you think PS'ing was for?

K Prime that's not true, his Rope Snake extends his hurtbox and always has. There's a video of Nick Riddle dsmashing Galeon from like two dsmashes away with a dsmash because Galeon started his Rope Snake.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Also (LOL double post) when I tried this PSC thing a few minutes ago ZSS could down-b through the high nado using intang frames and kick him.

 

[bigman40]

@Bigman: how sure are you that you can do an attack during the shield drop animation after power shielding?

Enough to have done frame advance on it to confirm my guesses long time ago, and do it during matches. PS allows you to do w/e you want after hitlag is done. You only see the shield animation because you haven't done anything to interrupt it. If you could cancel hitlag, then the C would be justified, and, even if you can't PSC the hitlag, you can't buffer anything due to shield lag and shield drop being taken out.

 

[Pikabunz]

@Bigman: how sure are you that you can do an attack during the shield drop animation after power shielding?

I'm 100% sure. That is the purpose of power shielding.

K Prime that's not true, his Rope Snake extends his hurtbox and always has. There's a video of Nick Riddle dsmashing Galeon from like two dsmashes away with a dsmash because Galeon started his Rope Snake.

Vid?

 

[Mr.-0]

Okay, brining up PSC in this thread was a bad idea. I think it shoud be tested more until it's brought up again.

Also: Where are those cool yoshi sigs from?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWAOoJ0YVxQ#t=4m0s

 

[KillerJawz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWAOoJ0YVxQ#t=4m0s

...Oh wow O.o...

This is for Lucas only right? It doesn't effect other zairs in this way?

 

[Mr.-0]

It's only for lucas.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, it's just Lucas because he's bad.

 

[Kole]

Lucas has the best tether because it's an aminal

 

[Pikabunz]

Something else is happening in the video. His snake doesn't extend his hurtbox.

 

[Mr.-0]

That's whats bad about it, cause it's an animal they're linked or something. Look at the vid above, Lucas has the worst tether cause of that IMO.

Talking to Kole.

 

[Chuee]

That's whats bad about it, cause it's an animal they're linked or something.

lol @ being linked to an animal.

 

[Poltergust]

Something else is happening in the video. His snake doesn't extend his hurtbox.

What's your explanation for it, then? I don't have a clue as to what else it could be.

 

[Mr.-0]

Okay, seriously, this might be spam, but where the **** are all those cool sigs above me from?

 

[GimR]

Enough to have done frame advance on it to confirm my guesses long time ago, and do it during matches. PS allows you to do w/e you want after hitlag is done. You only see the shield animation because you haven't done anything to interrupt it. If you could cancel hitlag, then the C would be justified, and, even if you can't PSC the hitlag, you can't buffer anything due to shield lag and shield drop being taken out.

Yeah your right, so basically Innocentroads technique is just attacking on the first frame possible after Power shielding.


So I guess the name doesn't make 100 percent sense but it's still very important

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I actually found this a long time ago (not to be all ninjalink about it) but it's what ripple says, that's just how PSing functions. It's for for it to have a name though. It helps describe the phenomenon and also makes people aware of something very important.

 

[Mr.-0]

No, it's not. It's just powershielding. Attacking on th first fram possible is just attacking. If I attacked on the first fram possible of a match, should I get some fancy, misleading, hype inducing name for it? No. Take the thread down, it's JUST powershielding.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh, it isn't that simple. It is buffered powershielding.