Official BBR Tier List v5

[TheReflexWonder]

I hate this argument

Players on their sort of level can make ANY character look like garbage with rapid 3 stocks etc and they have done so countless times in the past vs other top players. So what if m2k ***** a ness, hes also ***** top snakes, diddys, marths, falcos, warios, IC... EVERYTHING. And its not even unique to him, many characters do it to all others.

God if you made a tier list based off how badly some characters get demolished in tournaments it would be like

top
MK

A
Snake Diddy Falco

F
everyone else

Except...it -is- just ****ing Ness. :/

Getting molested due to obvious character limitations is different than simply being outplayed.

 

[Spelt]

A
Snake Diddy

Speaks for itself.

 

[Browny]

oh ffs i dont care which order the characters are in

 

[~TBS~]

only person who goes into matches intending to purposely time people out is speed.

Actually, Vex told me to adopt this mindset as a playstyle at pound because he saw my matches. Now, im not gonna lie, i took this mindset for a while and actually was doing pretty dang good. I stopped and i did worse. Now im going back to it because it freaking works, but only if the other person is playing gay/if i have a sizable lead. But yeh, i go aggro if i know somethings going to work.

i don't think speed actually goes into matches trying to time people out

he's just scared as **** of whoever is on the other end of the stage

true story, at sassy's house once while teaming with speed in a friendly, i told him to take chris (our crewmate, a ganon)

he was like WHAT?! as if i'd just sentenced him to be burned at the stake

...sorta. Ganon is scary dude, no lie.

 

[Sinister Slush]

burnt and Tesh have no idea what they're talking about.

I can't speak for X, but I under no circumstances was intentionally "stalling" anyone at MLG Dallas.
Tyrant and I only went to time because I managed to snag the lead away with, what, FIVE seconds left? Guess those five seconds I was in the lead were enough to qualify?

Only TWO of my games went to time out at MLG Dallas, burnt/Tesh, and they were both brought about by the campiness of my opponents (Olimar never has to approach, and Meta Knight can box Sonic out all day).

Having said that, I rarely EVER time people out, if at all. Aside from those two games out of...what, 34 games (2 vs. PeachGuard, 2 vs. Dakpo, 2 vs. Mr. Doom, 3 vs. DEHF, 2 vs. Zac, 2 vs. Shaky, 5 vs. Rich Brown, 3 vs. Tyrant, 5 vs. ESAM, 3 vs. Ally, and 5 vs. X) total, the last time I remember timing someone out in tournament was Dekar in Game 3 at ALS, which was SIX months ago.

Case in point, it's fairly rare for me to time someone out, so to Tesh/burnt/whoever, quit insinuating that it's the time out aptitude of my main that gives me the majority of my success, because that's just not true at all.

Yes, I'm mad. Pass the salt.

Yes.. i'm quoting the whole post.
Either way you timed Polt out at JUJment Day 2, but that doesn't really matter, just throwing it out there. Not trying to pour more oil into the fire in any way.

 

[DMG]

You kinda listed the tier list LOL

As for Ness, basically what Reflex said. It's not hard to look at the character and determine "Well you're boned". Let's run through some scenarios:

A. Ness doesn't show at the tournament at all. No body comes and plays him.

B. Ness comes, but doesn't make it out of pools/loses instantly in bracket.

C. Ness gets a pretty decent placement. (Out of pools, 2-3 rounds through winners before knocked out)

D. Ness gets a good placement. (gets a mid or slightly above mid attendance placing)

E. Ness gets a great placement. (Top 12)

F. Ness gets a breakthrough placement. (Top 4)

G to L. Varying situations related to the above, where you change who Ness beat and lost to as a player or as a character.



Now, out of all of those scenarios, do any of those make Ness a better character? The answer is no. Regardless of what Ness did or did not do, the fact remains that he's a pretty subpar character. Because of this, I don't care if FOW didn't go to the tournament or if he won the whole damn thing. The character is straight up bad. You can call that being stubborn or closed minded, I call it being truthful and not changing my entire evaluations of characters on a tournament to tournament basis.

 

[Spelt]

I call it being truthful and not changing my entire evaluations of characters on a tournament to tournament basis.

This should be everyone's mentality.
Sadly, that's not the case.

 

[Xebenkeck]

@DMG yet you blatently disregard characters who switch for match two of a set, and still proclaim they are good. They seem more restricted/limited than Ness. Interesting logic

 

[Espy Rose]

Because 1 out of 7-ish sets vs. Polt's Yoshi is majority, right Slush?

 

[Browny]

Now, out of all of those scenarios, do any of those make Ness a better character? The answer is no. Regardless of what Ness did or did not do, the fact remains that he's a pretty subpar character. Because of this, I don't care if FOW didn't go to the tournament or if he won the whole damn thing. The character is straight up bad. You can call that being stubborn or closed minded, I call it being truthful and not changing my entire evaluations of characters on a tournament to tournament basis.

And heres the supermassive black hole of logic - YOU DONT KNOW HOW GOOD/BAD NESS IS.

This argument just does not stop coming up and holy **** it gets torn to pieces every few months.

Not long ago, everyone KNEW that Peach was a very good character. The 'truth' as everyone saw it, pointed to Sonic being a low tier character. This **** applies to practically every single one except the extremes of the tier list, characters are simply assumed good/bad because... nothing. There is no proof, and the only proof is disgustingly outdated data. You saw my big thread about it late last year, because Ness had poor results in 08, people seem to think that any recent good results dont matter, because his tier position was set in 08 therefore we cant stray too far from it. If you want to have any hope of forming an accurate, RELEVANT opinion to the 2011 metagame, you need to forget EVERYTHING from mid '10 and before. If ness is still bad by those standards, then about a third of cast is worse at the moment.

This applies to Sonic, Ike and Yoshi especially with Rob/peach in reverse.

Christ if I had a dollar for every time someone made a statement like this "fact remains that he's a pretty subpar character." and then in a few months time, that 'fact' is completely reversed (whether the character is better/worse) Im quite sure I could buy this good laptop im looking at getting.

Yes I will call that close minded coz if you think you know how good Ness is based off you OUTDATED opinions and refuse to accept 2010/2011 results, that is the only word to describe it.

I dont think Ness is like omg mid-high tier coz of Fow or anything, but I look at what I KNOW AND NO ONE CAN DISPROVE, which is that in recent times, no lucas/sheik/pt has pulled off that sort of results.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not about poor results in the past. It's about glaring, massive flaws of the character.

I've always thought ROB, Peach, and G&W weren't good characters. Same with Ness. I place more stock in potential than most people do.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah, I hate outdated opinions. I think we should forget everything about 2010 and get to the present. If Sonic is placing well all the time, he must be a good char. Forget the 1st tierlist lol.

It's like "We didn't know Sonic is good at that time so of course he still sucks now that we know he doesn't".

Stop the old dated mindset. People say character X lacks results to rise and the character Y places really well and then they say "Doesn't change the fact he still sucks" >_>

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, when Sonic's bunch of ATs were discovered, his potential for success grew a great deal. That, on top of his already-extreme speed meant a lot as far as potential goes.

It's not about past results. It's about what we see in the character itself.

 

[-LzR-]

Always mix you up with DMG because of your avatar >_>
But yeah, give Sonic a chance, Espy and x can't be so good they can both place well with a crappy character.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Because 1 out of 7-ish sets vs. Polt's Yoshi is majority, right Slush?

Nope, not at all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not about poor results in the past. It's about glaring, massive flaws of the character.

I've always thought ROB, Peach, and G&W weren't good characters. Same with Ness. I place more stock in potential than most people do.

I'm actually among this group.

This is one of the few times I disagree with Browny, which surprises me.

Oddly enough I don't think Peach is a bad character in retrospect.

 

[Yink]

Except...it -is- just ****ing Ness. :/

Getting molested due to obvious character limitations is different than simply being outplayed.

I really have to agree. As much as I love Ness, I really don't ever see him getting any better.

If you look at it, like Reflex said, Ness just simply gets hit hard because of his limitations. Sorry Browny, I have to agree with Reflex.

 

[Death Arcana]

If he has such limitations why did ness even make it that far????
m2k is just that good
It's because ness has the tools to not get exploited by those flaws thus proving he can be used in high level play.
The question is did fow use secondaries?
If so when and how many times?

 

[DMG]

And the characters you listed are also bad. Lucas, PT, Shiek, etc. You could even stretch that up as far as Luigi if you wanted to. I'm not talking minor placement changes, but rather people completely shifting characters upwards towards that magical "viability" cutoff and having their opinions completely shift from tournament to tournament if anything changes.


The "negative 08" effect you noted is even stronger when it comes to recent positivity. "ROB won 3 tournaments that weekend, there's no possible way he could drop." "But Yoshi did well at some tournaments, he's not bad at all!" "NESSSSSSSSSS".


Death: The real question is how did his opponents play? If they failed to abuse his flaws, well no johns but shame on them. If he completely circumnavigated his flaws with other tools and beat his opponents, you would see them unable to abuse his flaws because of that. I doubt he beat people because he came up with something for his character that others couldn't abuse his static flaws, so I'd have to guess they didn't abuse the characters weaknesses to a sufficient degree.

 

[Tesh]

Losing to DEHF and M2K means your character isn't viable? I guess that means..... well no one is viable.

 

[Yink]

Death: The real question is how did his opponents play? If they failed to abuse his flaws, well no johns but shame on them. If he completely circumnavigated his flaws with other tools and beat his opponents, you would see them unable to abuse his flaws because of that. I doubt he beat people because he came up with something for his character that others couldn't abuse his static flaws, so I'd have to guess they didn't abuse the characters weaknesses to a sufficient degree.

They didn't. Not from what I saw. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for FOW and it's good to see Ness doing some work, but at the same time I know that Ness isn't exactly super viable. Not to mention the last like, 5 things I've heard from people were, "The West Coast has no idea what to do against B Tier and lower".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Losing to DEHF and M2K means your character isn't viable? I guess that means..... well no one is viable.

It doesn't matter whether or not he lost to Mew2King or CharizardTrainer94--It's what's exploitable that counts. Did you see what happened in those matches?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I doubt he beat people because he came up with something for his character that others couldn't abuse his static flaws, so I'd have to guess they didn't abuse the characters weaknesses to a sufficient degree.

OK, but you can't prove this, you're just pretty sure because Ness is bad. Browny's right, you're wrong, suck it up. Even if you saw the matches you couldn't be sure, because honestly there's more to this game than frame data and "he could have X move at Y time." There's a psychological component that is pretty significant, plus there are a whole host of characters that can't really abuse Ness' grab release problem anyway.

Here's how i read your posts: "Ness is bad, his results don't matter because we already know Ness is bad." The worst kind of awful circular logic.

 

[DMG]

Losing to DEHF and M2K means your character isn't viable? I guess that means..... well no one is viable.

I don't think people understood what I said, so let me clarify:

M2K and DEHF demonstrated WHY Ness is a bad character. Not through the very fact of beating him, but by HOW they beat him. Did you see the match of M2K vs FOW? Did you see how M2K abused Ness's grab release weakness, his off stage trouble recovering safely when being edge guarded, his difficulty in approaching, his standard walls insufficient at stopping the opponent from breaking past?

It's not because M2K and Larry beat FOW that Ness is bad, but through the means and tactics they used to demonstrate "Hey everyone, this character is named Ness and we're gonna abuse the fact that he's a bad character with noticeable flaws. Watch me grab release or abuse his poor range or his recovery or X facet of Ness."

It doesn't matter whether or not he lost to Mew2King or CharizardTrainer94--It's what's exploitable that counts. Did you see what happened in those matches?

Exactly. M2K and Larry played him and I think they fairly demonstrated that Ness was a bad character. Not because they 2 stocked him or beat him period, but because they abused Ness's flaws to do so.



Let me also clarify on the tournament results part: I'm not suggesting tournament results do not count period. What I AM suggesting is that it's silly for people to base their evaluations of a character over the short term instead of looking for consistency. I'm not talking about LONG LONG term like back in 08 or early 09, but there's a difference between "Hey Ness got 3rd at a large tournament" and "Ness sure has been tearing through the scene lately. He got 3rd at that tournament, does really well at locals and regionals, and people are even picking him up for a secondary".

Im not interested in how characters do on a monthly or bi weekly basis. If Ness was being incredibly impressive over the span of 6 months or so, that would be obvious. But what do most people want to base their views on characters off? How they are doing for that month, or how they are doing in the short term.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

OK, but you can't prove this, you're just pretty sure because Ness is bad. Browny's right, you're wrong, suck it up.

If you feel that "it can't be proven" is why we should ignore common sense, then I suppose there's no point in arguing about it.

Meanwhile, I hope people take a little time to learn what they can do against obscure characters to make the matchups much less troublesome for themselves if they have to play a good user of one.

 

[Shaya]

Falco having grab release to bdacus on ness is pretty lame for the kid.

poor ness.

 

[Death Arcana]

Um I'm pretty sure tyrant knows how to abuse ness's flaws
Your forgetting how good m2k and Larry are.
Did you see how bad m2k beat X? It wasn't close m2k hard read everything
And the last time they played it was close
Did Fow go all ness or not?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you feel that "it can't be proven" is why we should ignore common sense, then I suppose there's no point in arguing about it.

Meanwhile, I hope people take a little time to learn what they can do against obscure characters to make the matchups much less troublesome for themselves if they have to play a good user of one.

Uhhh I'd rather ignore your vague notions of character quality than the results staring you in the face. Hey, FOW won a lot of money this weekend. Other low/mid tier characters didn't. There's your proof. If Ness' great results, ones like the one that JUST HAPPENED aren't good enough for you then I'm not really sure what else can be said. You will continue to delude yourself into thinking Ness can't work around his weakness and get 3rd at a national while it's actually happening. Right now. Today. RIGHT NOW.

 

[DMG]

Falco having grab release to bdacus on ness is pretty lame for the kid.

poor ness.

But Ness got third at that tournament, he's good!


Welcome to the Smash Community. This moment brought to you by The League of Unimpressive Characters.

Hi Yink!

 

[Shaya]

Just about every person who's ever played m2k for the first time gets absolutely butt *****. Except for characters that require match up knowledge (Diddy, Olimar come to mind, others are tricky without knowledge... like Ice Climbers, Squirtle.... rofl)

He is on an entirely different level, but players can learn to beat him as a player.

(Beat is probably not the right word, more like 'compete')

 

[Reyney]

Falco having grab release to bdacus on ness is pretty lame for the kid.

poor ness.

he still has dat bthrow!

nah..
i followed the whole ness argumentation and was rooting for him all the time...
the thought that he was a viable character, was very likely but unrealistic.

now i see no light at the horizon as reflex and dmg got their arguments right.
i also saw the matches of fow and can agree to them 100%.

poor ness

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But Ness got third at that tournament, he's good!


Welcome to the Smash Community. This moment brought to you by The League of Unimpressive Characters.

Hi Yink!

Uhh, Ness is just OK, but it's not just because of this tournament, although it definitely helps. And this isn't even about Ness. It's about people who still think characters like Ike and Ness are bad when they outplace characters like Wario (LOL) at high-level events without breaking a sweat and lose only to amazing players like DEHF and M2K.

 

[DMG]

And despite all of this, Wario is a better character than Ness.

Unless you want to say that Ness is good for outplacing other good characters at this tournament instead of looking at the big picture?

 

[Yink]

But Ness got third at that tournament, he's good!


Welcome to the Smash Community. This moment brought to you by The League of Unimpressive Characters.

Hi Yink!

Hello DMG! lol.

Uhh, Ness is just OK, but it's not just because of this tournament, although it definitely helps. And this isn't even about Ness. It's about people who still think characters like Ike and Ness are bad when they outplace characters like Wario (LOL) at high-level events without breaking a sweat and lose only to amazing players like DEHF and M2K.

However, you have to think about how they're placing. Does Ness place that well a lot, or just now and then? Things like that.

 

[Death Arcana]

InB4Fow = outlier

 

[_Kain_]

InB4Fow = outlier

Outliers are a trend most people love to follow in this thread. Makes me laugh

 

[DMG]

Inb4 this tournament = Ness is good

Oh would you look at that, it swings both ways?

 

[Browny]

It doesn't matter whether or not he lost to Mew2King or CharizardTrainer94--It's what's exploitable that counts. Did you see what happened in those matches?

This just in: every character in the game is Falco/MK

I guess DDD is now bottom tier?

whoopdee-****ing-doo A ness got ***** by the #1 and potentially top 3 player in the entire country. Heres something for you; WHY THE HELL WASNT EVERY OTHER 'GOOD' PLAYER AT THAT TOURNAMENT ABLE TO DO THE SAME THING? Inbe4 FOW is a better player. I counter that argument with Ness is a good character. We both have 0 quantifiable proof coz theres WAYYYY too many variables to consider, so dont even waste your time trying to say that.

If it took some of the best players in the entire country to expose a characters weakness, why doesnt that horrid argument apply to like EVERY OTHER CHARACTER that mk2/dehf routinely destroy whenever they come across them?

This isnt about how good/bad ness is as a character, its about how impossible it is for characters to break out of their 08/09 stereotypes of bad characters and the same in reverse when people refuse to accept that good characters actually suck now. Ness is still a highly limited character ok thats fine. Now how about the characters above him who are ASSUMED not to be limited in 08/09, but are completely unviable in 2010/2011, yet maintain their position above him?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Does Wario place EVER?

I'm not even saying Ness is a better character than Wario. I don't think he is.

I do think it's hilarious though that we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to Wario, even keeping him in Top Tier, when he's a character that is so irrelevant in the current metagame that I sometimes forget he exists. With Ness on the other hand, a character that gets consistent results, we're reluctant to even admit he's serviceable and cling to him being bad because of an issue that FOW apparently didn't have a problem with until the last match of a ****ing 140-person tournament with amazing players present. I'm not sure how else I can say this.

 

[Death Arcana]

Go browny go

I agree ness is better than where he is now