Official BBR Tier List v5

[da K.I.D.]

It's still at least 40-60, which makes it a hard counter. When we're talking about hard counters is that the ratio involved?

lol...

where did you get the idea that 6-4 is a hard counter?

 

[Lenus Altair]

Sonic: Espy, X, top 8 at the same national
Fox: TKD, NAKAT, Trevonte, beating top level players across a span of about a year now.
Ike: San, 9th place at multiple nationals. Mr. Doom, Ryo. Beating top calibur players of multiple regions and multiple characters across the span of about a year.
Pit, One dude from a completely isolated region that wins in a ruleset completely seperate than the established norm.

One of these things is not like the others.

If you want to put the accomplishments of these similarly placed character against each other., it seems like pit has proven himself the least of the 4. and should be below the other 3.

Just going to throw out there that this comparison is unfair in that it doesn't take into account Earths accomplishments in Japan. I have little doubt he could make similar claims. It more comes down too...

We don't have much experience with Japan as a region to judge accurately.

^^^This

 

[da K.I.D.]

It was more just reference to the at a glance bullet points that most people refer to for those characters.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I see what you meant. No worries. I agree Pit has done little of note in the West and there is currently no accurate way to judge his abilities based on his success in the East.

 

[Seagull Joe]

From what I've heard it's not as bad as previously thought.
@seagull: hard counters are 65-35 and up.

lol...

where did you get the idea that 6-4 is a hard counter?

Then Wolf has 0 hard counters.

 

[Spelt]

Again, there's NO way pikachu vs wolf is better than pikachu vs falco.


lawd, character board matchups get more and more idiotic everyday.

 

[Laem]

Again, there's NO way pikachu vs wolf is better than pikachu vs falco.


lawd, character board matchups get more and more idiotic everyday.

Is it possible that wolf does better vs IC's than falco?

 

[Spelt]

I haven't even seen any wolf vs ICs matches nor i have heard any opinions about the matchups from anyone notable so i can't say for sure, but at first thought it doesn't seem quite as crazy as vs pikachu.

 

[Pikabunz]

Falco is a lot harder than Wolf for Pika.

 

[Hylian]

I haven't even seen any wolf vs ICs matches nor i have heard any opinions about the matchups from anyone notable so i can't say for sure, but at first thought it doesn't seem quite as crazy as vs pikachu.

[yt]Up4JpL2eDcw[/yt]

Granted kain beat me last time we played, but I also dropped 4 grabs last stock last game lol. It's winnable but very very hard for wolf and he usually has to hope the IC's drop grabs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL Wolf posters are funny people.

 

[_Kain_]

I beat Lain too the next week after I beat Hylian. I think just how IC's drop grabs people who play against IC's make mistakes too that get them grabbed. I mean, does IC's force certain characters into grabs? Are they just a character that profits off of players mistakes? If so then as long as you play a perfect game IC's shouldn't win. This is why I don't think Falco vs ICs is bad cause when I watch DEHF play against ICs he flys all over them and only gets grabbed cause HE made a bad decision

 

[Seagull Joe]

Again, there's NO way pikachu vs wolf is better than pikachu vs falco.

lawd, character board matchups get more and more idiotic everyday.

Do you use the character to know enough to declare what you say or do you just say "Wolf is bad" without explaining?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rktShtXpzIQ

Wolf is very good at avoiding the cg by Pikachu. He also kinda destroys Pikachu without the cg.

I've played Meep and GIMR a lot in Wolf vs Ics and we usually go even. Wolf has the tools to avoid Ics cg pretty easily.

Blizzard wall loses to laser. Wolf can shine gimp popo out of his up b when they recover or Wolf can shine side b. As long as Wolf doesn't use Fsmash like at all in this matchup then he can easily avoid getting grabbed. I watch too many Wolf's think Fsmash is godlike and always combos from Bairs, yet it doesn't always combo and it isn't an amazing move for anything other then punishing. I just space bairs, laser plank, and jumpshine.

I'm not going to argue Wolf's placement in the tier list because I only think he deserves to be in C tier, but no one is gonna listen to what I say, so I'll just let results speak for themselves.

 

[Vinnie]

@DMG: ZSS/G&W gets destroyed by double Meta, actually, but is otherwise a stupid broken team. A few months ago I watched in horror as Vinnie and Snakeee 3- and 4-stocked Will and Kirin like 3 times in a row, it was ridiculous. Will looked so frustrated, and rightfully so.

Then, they played Inui and Atomsk (double meta) and got stomped.

We lost to inui nairo, mk mk can lose to gw zss, we beat inui/atomsk recently.

 

[Deleted member]

Its weird that people bring up WGF as an example of fox doing badly, while trevonte beat tearbear, tyrant, and TKD with fox in that same tournament and got 7th xD

 

[JayBee]

A ledge grab limit really is necessary, though only because of Meta Knight.

I'd much prefer it if we just bit the bullet and banned the character altogether.

basically this. I've always thought this, but i was tired of saying it, only to have people who are anti-ban not give me anything in response usually, other than, "get better." Im tired of hearing that. its 2011 that's how many years of people "getting better" and its still an issue worth discussing over and over every month?

SiiS4 was 2 weeks ago. After M2K beat Ally in the finals (which were a joke because there was no LGL), Ally said he had "literally no chance to win" because of the lack of LGL. Then everybody complained (more for Coney's sake than Ally's, don't forget that Coney JV3ed M2K game one with DDD and was already ****ed because of the rules). M2K says it's needed, and proved it when he reduced the one-time best player in the world to "no chance." We don't need to continue this anymore. Either have the LGL or ban MK, I don't care which.

It sucks because this is true. the LGL in my opinion does little to slow MK down in the right hands because he can basically do the same darn thing in the air, albiet slightly less effective. and without it, M2K apparently is unstoppable, not to ignore the many capable MK players that can just as easily do the same (all they would need to do is decide to do it, all the time.)

1) Employ LGL, and give MK a lower LGL than everyone else
2) LGL only for MK

They're both a little lulzable, but I don't think they're too unreasonable. Whether or not you enforce an LGL isn't what makes the big difference, it's the actual value you choose.

I'm not sure what is an effective number to place a LGL anymore. I rarely think it matters in most matches that do not involve MK anyways.

Sounds to me like Ban MK.

Planking isn't the problem, Metaknight's Planking is.

Fighting from the ledge is a universal tactic in brawl just like fighting in the air or on the ground. If a characters Air/Ground tactics made them unbeatable, then it's the character that needs to be banned. You wouldn't say that ALL Characters can only stay in the air/touch the ground X number of times would you? If you make it Character specific instead, it just goes to say he breaks the system and should be banned.

Just one of many thoughts on the issue, but smash boards doesn't like it when people talk about MK bans right?

Whatever. On topic.

I think Luigi is overrated and needs to drop. Sonic should rise. I love Pit but he hasn't been doing much. Is he a better or more viable character then Peach, DK, or Wolf? I'd like to say yes, but that's pure bias.

Thoughts?

Smashboards, or many many people in smashboards get thier panties in a bunch when you talk about MK being banned, whether you have data to support it or not. But they want him in, so of course they'd be so strongly against it, can't be too mad at them. On the flip side, I feel that MK's dominance plays a role in certain characters rise in the tier list due to players being forced to focus mainly on him. I strongly believe Sonic is one of those characters.

Seagull, i dont think Wolf is that bad, its just that people see flaws in a characters that is more noticable than others and they usually make quick judgements. It was similar with Sonic actually, and I think that wherever Sonic is, Wolf should probably right next to him, 1-2 spots no more or less.


Can someone help me find Coney vs M2K match please?

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's still at least 40-60, which makes it a hard counter. When we're talking about hard counters is that the ratio involved?

*facedesks and shatters his laptop*
NO!

Hard counters are 7-3 or WORSE.

Not 6-4

7-3

 

[Deleted member]

IC vs. Wolf isn't bad for Wolf. It's an even MU.

Also, what Seagull said on the Pika MU. Wolf doesn't have a hard time avoiding Pika's grab, and without the CG, the MU would clearly be in Wolf's favor.

@SFP, you're one to talk.

 

[BSP]

Its weird that people bring up WGF as an example of fox doing badly, while trevonte beat tearbear, tyrant, and TKD with fox in that same tournament and got 7th xD

Not that anyone wants to keep talking about Sonic but...

X just pulled 5th (or was i 7th? gotta check again) out of 140

What MU johns are we going to see this time?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not that anyone wants to keep talking about Sonic but...

X just pulled 5th (or was i 7th? gotta check again) out of 140

What MU johns are we going to see this time?

They misjudged Sonic's ability to stall the match?

I didn't see the matches, so I wouldn't know, but I hear that it played a role at MLG Dallas.

That being said, Espy put in some serious work there, too, and that wasn't his strategy.

 

[John12346]

JayBee, not for nothing, but all that stuff you just said is probably best left to this thread, because it talks about rulesets rulesets rulesets, rather than this one that talks about how good or bad all of the characters are.

Copypasta it over there or something? Iunno.
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Anyway onto Wolf. I personally think he's got a lot going for him. A really strong kill move and damage racker in Bair where AFAIK the hitbox comes out one frame before his foot does... A shine with some serious invincibility frames as a pseudo counter and an annoying interruption tool... Reliable and fast kill moves in Dsmash and Usmash. Plus his gun and reflector give him the ability to camp.

He has issues, though, like his lack of disjoint on everything except Bair and his blaster. Shieldgrabbing also does Wolf dirty iirc. And of course, he does have a mediocre recovery that gimping characters can, well, gimp. Plus he has to worry about being chaingrabbed to the ends of the earth and back by a lot of characters.

Imo he should stay or go up only a bit. There are a few too many chaingrabby and gimpy matchups for Wolf to really show his skills.

 

[Deleted member]

They misjudged Sonic's ability to stall the match?

I didn't see the matches, so I wouldn't know, but I hear that it played a role at MLG Dallas.

That being said, Espy put in some serious work there, too, and that wasn't his strategy.

Its not X's strategy either, he doesnt run away a lot, he just doesnt approach when he doesnt have to. He beats lots of good players without going to time.

Espy times people too

 

[Tesh]

They misjudged Sonic's ability to stall the match?

I didn't see the matches, so I wouldn't know, but I hear that it played a role at MLG Dallas.

That being said, Espy put in some serious work there, too, and that wasn't his strategy.

Espy and __X__ were both timing people out at Dallas. Its something Sonic does very well. From what I saw of __X__ at WGF, he was pretty aggressive and the matches were like 4-6 minutes on average.

A little late on this but to all the folks that say Japan's metagame doesn't matter because their ruleset is different...

Its not like they play coin/stamina/special brawl or something that would truly change the metagame alot. So what if they only play on what we call "starters". You can still win a set in the west by winning on starters (game 1 and 3).

 

[John12346]

I never actually saw Sonic as a stally character.

He just seems to have too much awkward mobility for that. Not slow mobility, obviously, but I think it's strange enough to the point that time outs aren't as likely as, say, Wario or MK are.

It's just that the matches tend to become long winded due to Sonic mains usually avoiding a lot of hits and being unable to kill before like 400% or something. That's usually where the time-outs come from.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lucario needs Zelda's dtaunt so he has a follow-up for his dtilt. Thoughts?

 

[Tesh]

Well that is part of the reason. Timeouts are usually last stock and with Sonic in the picture that could easily be 5-6 minutes into the game. Then its just a matter of getting decisive lead and not taking any risks.

 

[Espy Rose]

burnt and Tesh have no idea what they're talking about.

I can't speak for X, but I under no circumstances was intentionally "stalling" anyone at MLG Dallas.
Tyrant and I only went to time because I managed to snag the lead away with, what, FIVE seconds left? Guess those five seconds I was in the lead were enough to qualify?

Only TWO of my games went to time out at MLG Dallas, burnt/Tesh, and they were both brought about by the campiness of my opponents (Olimar never has to approach, and Meta Knight can box Sonic out all day).

Having said that, I rarely EVER time people out, if at all. Aside from those two games out of...what, 34 games (2 vs. PeachGuard, 2 vs. Dakpo, 2 vs. Mr. Doom, 3 vs. DEHF, 2 vs. Zac, 2 vs. Shaky, 5 vs. Rich Brown, 3 vs. Tyrant, 5 vs. ESAM, 3 vs. Ally, and 5 vs. X) total, the last time I remember timing someone out in tournament was Dekar in Game 3 at ALS, which was SIX months ago.

Case in point, it's fairly rare for me to time someone out, so to Tesh/burnt/whoever, quit insinuating that it's the time out aptitude of my main that gives me the majority of my success, because that's just not true at all.

Yes, I'm mad. Pass the salt.

 

[Tesh]

No johns Espy, if you had approached harder during those last 5 seconds, you might have scored the kill before time. YOU HAVE NO HONOR!!!!!!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Espy times people too

All of our sonics time people out from time to time, and the VAST majority of the time, its due to the ******ry and campiest of our opponents rather than us.

I mean, if were in the lead by 50%, and the other guy is playing rediculously defensive on the other side of the stage, you expect me to attack him anyway?

no! im just going to sit back with my lead and wait for him to come over and give me an opportunity to hit him. if he decides to wait until theres 30 seconds left to do so, and I find that its easier to just avoid him for the next half a minute instead of trying to force a kill, that doesnt mean im playing a campy character.

I never actually saw Sonic as a stally character.

He just seems to have too much awkward mobility for that. Not slow mobility, obviously, but I think it's strange enough to the point that time outs aren't as likely as, say, Wario or MK are.

It's just that the matches tend to become long winded due to Sonic mains usually avoiding a lot of hits and being unable to kill before like 400% or something. That's usually where the time-outs come from.

also, this.

 

[Savon]

I played my friends Diddy with my Sonic and it was then that I realized that Sonic is a character that will not often time people out purposely. It just kinda happens. The simple fact of the matter is that Sonic is not a killer, and when you can't kill fights last for a long time. Just put A and B together. You might find a Sonic who intentionally times people out, but Sonic fights have a natural tendency to drag on for obvious reasons.

 

[da K.I.D.]

only person who goes into matches intending to purposely time people out is speed.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

must... sig...

 

[Coney]

i don't think speed actually goes into matches trying to time people out

he's just scared as **** of whoever is on the other end of the stage

true story, at sassy's house once while teaming with speed in a friendly, i told him to take chris (our crewmate, a ganon)

he was like WHAT?! as if i'd just sentenced him to be burned at the stake

 

[-Mars-]

Sonic is stronger when running away. Whether or not Sonics actually intentionally try to drag the match out or not...... is irrelevant. Most of Sonics approaches can be dealt with by the majority of the cast. But the majority of the cast cannot play hit and run with Sonic.

 

[DMG]

ROFL. Me too.^

Also, TKD not using Fox matters more for himself then anything else. Maybe he didn't feel like putting into a lot of work at WGF because using Fox, consistently Short hop triple laser, and other precise techs are very draining. I don't think Fox is underrated. I think he belongs where he is at this moment.

Wolf is only hard countered by D3, Wario (With cg) and Pikachu in reality. And those matchups are all 40-60. Wario without cg is even.

Fox gets hard countered by Sheik, Fox, and Ice climbers.

Falco gets hard countered by Pikachu and Ice climbers.

Your matchup ratios are incredibly bad. Having 6:4 as a hard counter on a scale of 1-10 is silly lol. The long time standard for MU ratings goes something like this:

5:5 completely even

55:45 sometimes lumped in with even, neither character has a noticeable advantage over the other. 1 character might have 2+ clearly better stages to play on, with other stages tending to go even or close to even

6:4 Soft counter/Soft advantage

65:35 Approaching Hard counter/matchups that are slightly harder than Soft counter but not quite a hard counter. Some people label anything past 6:4 as hard counter

7:3 Hard counter/Hard advantage

8:2 Very Hard counter

9:1 Extreme/Basically impossible if anyone with a brain is playing


Now, let's go over Wolf's matchups:

As you said yourself, Wolf HAS hard counters. Throw ratios out the window for a second. Hard counter means what? Hard counter. If you talked to someone about those matchups in terms not related to numbers, you would say "Yeah that's a hard matchup for Wolf".

Now, our standard matchup ratio list would have hard counter at 7:3, or 65:35 for the lower end. Wolf DEFINITELY has some hard counters, let's not kid ourselves. Going by those ratios, Wolf would be something like:

65:35 / 7:3 Wario's Favor

65:35 Pika's Favor

7:3 Dedede's Favor


Wolf also has soft counters. If we used your list, Im guessing 55:45 is a soft counter? I mean if you labeled all of Wolf's soft counters as 55:45 or 5:5, then god damn his matchup spread looks GREAT. You would see a bunch of 5:5 and 55:45 everywhere if we used your ratios. No wonder Wolf mains think their character is great when you have disadvantages mislabeled loool.

lol...

where did you get the idea that 6-4 is a hard counter?

Idk, that's the first time I've heard someone say 6:4 is a hard counter. I mean what's the point of a 100 range scale if every 5 points represents a new level of counter? Lol TRIPLE DECKER COUNTER, DOE-DECAGON COUNTER, etc

Then Wolf has 0 hard counters.

Nope. Like we talked about earlier, throw numbers out the window. If someone asked you in laymen terms how the Dedede matchup is, you would say "That's a hard matchup for Wolf." AKA, hard counter.

Now, add in ratios. 7:3 or 65:35, accepted Hard Counter. So yes, your character has some 7:3 matchups because that represents what? A Hard Counter.

Its weird that people bring up WGF as an example of fox doing badly, while trevonte beat tearbear, tyrant, and TKD with fox in that same tournament and got 7th xD

On the flip side, people point to FOW doing good with Ness as "OMG Ness so good". Even after M2K and Larry showed people why... it's just ****ing Ness lol. The smash community is too fickle when it comes to evaluating characters, regardless of where they truly should be on the tier list.

 

[-Mars-]

Wolf has bair.

No hard counters dood.

 

[Spelt]

Those ratios look a lot more reasonable.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Well Sonic is his name and speeds his game...or stalling I should say...

 

[Browny]

On the flip side, people point to FOW doing good with Ness as "OMG Ness so good". Even after M2K and Larry showed people why... it's just ****ing Ness lol. The smash community is too fickle when it comes to evaluating characters, regardless of where they truly should be on the tier list.

I hate this argument

Players on their sort of level can make ANY character look like garbage with rapid 3 stocks etc and they have done so countless times in the past vs other top players. So what if m2k ***** a ness, hes also ***** top snakes, diddys, marths, falcos, warios, IC... EVERYTHING. And its not even unique to him, many characters do it to all others.

God if you made a tier list based off how badly some characters get demolished in tournaments it would be like

top
MK

A
Snake Diddy Falco

F
everyone else

 

[da K.I.D.]

Real talk thats basically the metagame right now browny