Official BBR Tier List v5

[Shaya]

When dancing blade is fresh, each hit has 6 frames of shield stun (bar 4th hits). Otherwise 1.
(Like MK's tornado, if its fresh it has gay-amounts of shield stun, otherwise its 1 per hit)

 

[Nike.]

Oh, I see now.

 

[Pikabunz]

When dancing blade is fresh, each hit has 6 frames of shield stun (bar 4th hits). Otherwise 1.
(Like MK's tornado, if its fresh it has gay-amounts of shield stun, otherwise its 1 per hit)

That ain't true at all. D:

 

[Shaya]

That ain't true at all. D:

Have I got things mixed around then?

Pretty sure when DB is completely fresh there's 6 frames of shield stun (like this is me in frame data mode; hell it may be 6 frames of shield hit lag or something though, Marth doesn't experience 'whatever' that lag is though)
But after it gets staled there is only one.

Unless you're referring to Tornado

 

[John12346]

This is further evidenced by that glitch where Marth Counters something, but fails to hit the opponent.

When Marth uses DB first hit on someone after that, the opponent gets stuck in a LOT of hitlag, but Marth doesn't. From there, he can actually true combo into Fsmash, Dair, etc., during the opponent's hitlag.

 

[Shaya]

That has nothing to do with dancing blade specifically, and while it's the best move to use it with, he can do it with many moves...

 

[_Kain_]

I've never seen DB reliably DIed at all. The only part of DB that I've seen DIed SOMETIMES is DB4 down

 

[Pikabunz]

Have I got things mixed around then?

Pretty sure when DB is completely fresh there's 6 frames of shield stun (like this is me in frame data mode; hell it may be 6 frames of shield hit lag or something though, Marth doesn't experience 'whatever' that lag is though)
But after it gets staled there is only one.

Unless you're referring to Tornado

DB is not like tornado at all except for the fact that it doesn't have hitlag. The first hit of a fresh non-tippered DB does 6 frames of shield hitlag and 1 frame of shield stun. When staled once, it does 5 frames of shield hitlag and no shield stun only because it does less damage, just like any other move in the game. This is only for the first hit of DB, the other hits of DB may have more or less shield hitlag and shield stun since they all do different amounts of damage. Whether you tipper or not also affects the amount of shield hitlag and shield stun you do.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

SALTSALTSALTSALTSALT

LOL you're a funny guy orion XD

Sorry I couldn't get you more info than what I did, though, Pink Fresh. We currently have someone working on the data and I'll let you know as soon as it's up, promise <3

I might give you some before it's all "done" if you keep it a secret

I jest, I jest, but not really. :D

love ya orion

 

[DMG]

Olimar players hiding frame data and information about their character from people

 

[Technodeath]

Sounds about right.

 

[_Kadaj_]

They are scared to release that precious info

 

[DtJ Hilt]

oh you guys ^^

 

[Orion*]

There are a lot of matches with MK gimps. I've seen plenty of matches in person with MK getting those low percent kills offstage.

look at MOST top level match in tournament though, it doesnt happen that often, im just gonna pick 3 tournaments at random that happened this month and if its not m2k there probably will not be a gimp if the person that the mk is playing is about the same level lol

Fsmash has 15 frames of endlag.
It apparently takes 10 frames of human reaction to punish.
That gives 5 frames to punish if you're working off reaction. To cover the distance and counterattack... there aren't many characters who can do that in 5 frames...

mk can walk up and dsmash
falco can easily reflector
im pretty sure snake can walk and ftilt
ddd can tilt or gordo fish
it gives diddy time to pull out bananas if he doesnt have one, which is Gay >_>
lucario can aura sphere
marth can easily tipper


also no, its MUCH easier to react to something when you expect it.. if you cant realize that metaknight HAS TO release fsmash once he starts charging it then youre not talking about high level

its not like metaknights randomly releasing the charge, he has plenty of startup

The only way you can correctly punish it is if you correctly guess when MK releases the Fsmash, or if he fully charges it.

read about, although the above is true is probably true in some specific situation, like if you want to go for a grab

You also believe planking is too good, to the point that it gives him the best avoid game in Brawl?

no **** look at uair- but with a proper LGL metaknight cant abuse it the whole game, and when he is forced to come onstage, while he does have a lot of options, he has less than if he came from a nuetral or stage advantaged position

so you can take advantage of that

Plus MK can waste a lot of time off of just a few ledgegrabs, anyway...

read above

Ftilt hit 1 on shield to loads of Dtilt every time shouldn't be punishable. Even if you see it coming.
10 frames of lag on Ftilt 1
10 frames to react to that hit on your shield. Assuming you've established MK will Dtilt afterwards every time.
You have to punish in 3 frames or he'll hit you/your shield, which is just unreasonable for a lot of characters, considering shield drops take >3 frames, and most grabs can't cover MK's Ftilt/Dtilt distance.

dtilt has no vertical range, and i extend my hurtbox when i do it, so just jump over it and just hit me lol

marth can fair
wario can just jump and bite/dair whatever
falco can side B oos
snake can just lol dair

list goes on

Reaction times make it very hard for you to input SDI for Fair and Bair. And Uair is too good, since it has almost no hitlag to SDI on, but you seem to agree on that...

(outside of fair/bair and just buffering sdi up gets you out and DIs properly for all of the airs minus uair so its not that hard lol)

in other words if youre SDIing up you will get out of bair/fair and DI nair and dair properly if he hits you

makes sense?

I think Reflex meant when MK travels a large distance to avoid punishment on Nado by landing on SV's platform, it's hard to punish...

yes, im saying that any character with a good dash should just drop shield when they go for it, WALK forward incase they come back and then once they commit dash and platform cancel to punish them

There are also times where I've seen MK end Nado high enough over the ledge so they grab it out of the endlag.

yes but thats high enough that you can hit them before the ledge.... its about a BFs platform height above the ledge lol

Maybe for everyone except MK. >____>

He has too many tools, man. Planking, scrooging, air camping, EDC at times, SV platform stalling... of course it's all matchup dependent, but come on, you know he has what it takes to get the job done against any character.

im not saying its UNVIABLE im saying that its obviously less viable than it was with a proper LGL in place

you rarely see it anymore lol- even from myself

Except MK himself.

ive timed people out in this mu before, its not like its impossible *cough* inui
and he's timed me out in it to actually, on brinstar lul

Also, Orion, about what we discussed at VC9(?). Yes, NOW I'm taking a public offensive against MK.

And you can also find MK frame data here. You said you never had frame data.

i know where to find the frame data but why look it up when i have it generally memorized

i know the important ****, and if im wrong its by a few frames lol

i look at it often enough but thanks

I've never seen DB reliably DIed at all. The only part of DB that I've seen DIed SOMETIMES is DB4 down

if i see a situation and know its coming i can sdi out everytime-

problem im not smart enough to realize im about to get hit ALL the time

im definitely getting better at it living in EU though, hopefully im lucky and can get some times it happened vs mr.r next time we play

LOL you're a funny guy orion XD

Sorry I couldn't get you more info than what I did, though, Pink Fresh. We currently have someone working on the data and I'll let you know as soon as it's up, promise <3

I might give you some before it's all "done" if you keep it a secret

I jest, I jest, but not really. :D

love ya orion

LOOOOOOL

love you to,

but im still mad

not really lol

edit: SEE IM NOT THE ONLY ONE LOL

 

[Sky Pirate]

I don't understand why Potatoes aren't at the top of this list.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What is the fastest that you can do the second and third swings of Meta Knight's F-Tilt?

Have you ever seen a level 9 computer whiff it? It's...really fast.

EDIT: Never mind--According to that frame data post, all three attacks can be over and done with by frame 11. That's ridiculous.

 

[_Kadaj_]

As of late I've just been checking this thread to read Orion's post


Depends on what character you are talking about Luis

 

[Damix91]

Human reaction is actually averages at about 20 frames though as fighting gamers we should be a little quicker after continued practice. Perhaps 17-18. However as Orion says no-one reacts to F-Smash, it takes so long to start your predicting it. You don't need any frames to predict, you just have 15 to punish which is plenty.

 

[Luigi player]

Human reaction is actually averages at about 20 frames though as fighting gamers we should be a little quicker after continued practice. Perhaps 17-18. However as Orion says no-one reacts to F-Smash, it takes so long to start your predicting it. You don't need any frames to predict, you just have 15 to punish which is plenty.

Average reaction time is ~12 frames.

 

[Yikarur]

Average Reaction is 12-13 frames.


^ you suck D:

 

[Luigi player]

Average Reaction is 12-13 frames.


^ you suck D:

^u should get a better reaction time! :D

 

[Orion*]

As of late I've just been checking this thread to read Orion's post


Depends on what character you are talking about Luis

im super entertaining like that

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Human reaction is actually averages at about 20 frames though as fighting gamers we should be a little quicker after continued practice. Perhaps 17-18. However as Orion says no-one reacts to F-Smash, it takes so long to start your predicting it. You don't need any frames to predict, you just have 15 to punish which is plenty.

It's rather difficult to cover that distance with a decent attack in fifteen frames, especially when Meta Knight can stutter-step to throw off spacing, as well has has tons to options to punish people looking to wait and see what he does. Not to mention, since Meta Knight can hold the Smash, if his opponent tries to rely on the soonest possible cooldown frames, he will get punished for attempting to retaliate against something he doesn't actually know when will be vulnerable.

 

[Damix91]

Tbh your right Reflex. It was just theorycraft. I just roll/run away and arrow so i've never needed get in to punish.

 

[John12346]

look at MOST top level match in tournament though, it doesnt happen that often, im just gonna pick 3 tournaments at random that happened this month and if its not m2k there probably will not be a gimp if the person that the mk is playing is about the same level lol

Maybe at the top, and I mean the very tippy top level of play, this doesn't happen, but don't you think we should also take into account the high, or even mid levels of play, where they're all too common?

mk can walk up and dsmash
falco can easily reflector
im pretty sure snake can walk and ftilt
ddd can tilt or gordo fish
it gives diddy time to pull out bananas if he doesnt have one, which is Gay >_>
lucario can aura sphere
marth can easily tipper

Matchup specific. MK shouldn't be charging Fsmash against pretty much the 7 characters you listed. Also Olimar but w/e.

It's even worse if he hits your shield, because there's so much time involved in shieldstun and shield dropping, MK gets a -5 shield drop advantage... which is hard to capitalize on when the Fsmash just blew you away from shieldpush.

also no, its MUCH easier to react to something when you expect it.. if you cant realize that metaknight HAS TO release fsmash once he starts charging it then youre not talking about high level

its not like metaknights randomly releasing the charge, he has plenty of startup

MK isn't randomly releasing the charge, but there's no way for you to know if he'll release the smash at 50 frames of charging, or 90, etc(it takes 120 frames to fully charge a smash).

Unless you know exactly when he's gonna release the Fsmash, you can't punish him on reaction unless you outranged him to begin with(aka your aforementioned list of moves above).

no **** look at uair- but with a proper LGL metaknight cant abuse it the whole game, and when he is forced to come onstage, while he does have a lot of options, he has less than if he came from a nuetral or stage advantaged position

so you can take advantage of that

MK has tons of options in any scenario, just less if he's coming off the ledge? -___ -;

If he's got options, he's gonna use them...

dtilt has no vertical range, and i extend my hurtbox when i do it, so just jump over it and just hit me lol

marth can fair
wario can just jump and bite/dair whatever
falco can side B oos
snake can just lol dair

list goes on

Spoiler

Note down that the overlay of Dtilt in that image is for the first frame it's active. It might reach further horizontally than what the image shows.

Comparison between Ftilt1 and Dtilt. Pay attention to the hitbox closest to MK in both attacks. There's not much of a height loss in Dtilt from Ftilt1. Plus, MK crouches down a little during Dtilt, while MK's hurtbox moves up slightly during Ftilt1, so the hitbox's height change is more than compensated by MK's hurtbox movement. Mostly a deterrence for SOME SH approaches but not all.

The above is a pretty weak point, but what happens if MK starts mixing things up between Ftilt2 and Dtilt? Dtilt can't be used immediately after Ftilt1, but Ftilt2 can, at the cost of some endlag. If you try to attack under the presumption MK's gonna Dtilt, you're gonna get *****. And the opponent will still be left guessing whether or not MK's going to use Ftilt3 or not, all the while giving MK time to recover from Ftilt2. And it goes without saying if the opponent waits too long, BAM Dtilt.

Dropping your shield to attack at any point is risky because MK's other hits of Ftilt will hit you before you can get to him.

(outside of fair/bair and just buffering sdi up gets you out and DIs properly for all of the airs minus uair so its not that hard lol)

in other words if youre SDIing up you will get out of bair/fair and DI nair and dair properly if he hits you

makes sense?

Yes. But SDI'ing up will put you above MK which might make it harder for you to land...

yes, im saying that any character with a good dash should just drop shield when they go for it, WALK forward incase they come back and then once they commit dash and platform cancel to punish them

MK's Nado has a lot of speed to it, though. If you spend too much time worrying about whether or not he'll hit you with the Nado, I'm pretty sure you won't reach the platform in time.

Plus IF you could reach him in time, you don't really need to platform cancel to punish... just use an aerial...

yes but thats high enough that you can hit them before the ledge.... its about a BFs platform height above the ledge lol

This is somewhat on the same page as the SV platform business. MK only has 30 frames of lag after Nado. That's not a lot of time to punish if you've been hanging around in your shield for too long.

im not saying its UNVIABLE im saying that its obviously less viable than it was with a proper LGL in place

you rarely see it anymore lol- even from myself

Well, I just wanted to point out that timeouts still happen sometimes... MK DOES have the tools to do it, but I feel we see it less often because a lot of MK mains aren't patient enough to run away for 8 minutes, despite it probably being the best tactic...
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Also Orion wtf why is it you're the first person to ever actually give me trouble while discussing? ur2gud

 

[etecoon]

random note about reaction times is that typically people take their results from a twitch test where you're waiting for one specific action and have premeditated the response, *actual* reaction to something, including identifying what it is and then deciding on the appropriate response, tends to be much slower

 

[John12346]

So what you're saying is that it might be even harder to punish certain scenarios than what I made them out to be?

Or easier? Idk, you kinda confused me there.

 

[etecoon]

harder

this effect is reduced with experience, you predict things so it becomes more reflex, but any time you have to stop and think about what's happening, you're obviously going to react slower

 

[Goldenadept]

that quick draw game in kirby games da bess got a 10 reaction time once :O

 

[Yikarur]

I got 1 8)

 

[Coney]

how come zero suit's grab sometimes completely goes through someone?

i've had a friend get a really good read on me once, tried to grab and it literally just flew right past me without me spotdodging, rolling, even dashing or doing ANYTHING

 

[NickRiddle]

how come zero suit's grab sometimes completely goes through someone?

i've had a friend get a really good read on me once, tried to grab and it literally just flew right past me without me spotdodging, rolling, even dashing or doing ANYTHING

It has a "miss-box".
There is a part in the grab where the hit-boxes vanish, because Sakurai said so.
It's similar to her side-b hitboxes vanishing as well.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=141942

 

[phi1ny3]

how come zero suit's grab sometimes completely goes through someone?

i've had a friend get a really good read on me once, tried to grab and it literally just flew right past me without me spotdodging, rolling, even dashing or doing ANYTHING

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv286/EPsilon933/Lucario_Utilt.gif

edit: ninja'd by NR

 

[~Firefly~]

Yoshi has something similar on his dash grab. It's really lame. =/

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It has a "miss-box".
There is a part in the grab where the hit-boxes vanish, because Sakurai said so.
It's similar to her side-b hitboxes vanishing as well.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=141942

Hmm...Looking at some of her moves makes me wonder...

Like, on her ledge attack of over 100%, can, say, Kirby crouch under it?

It seems like this would be reasonable for a lot of her moves.

 

[John12346]

Z axis da bes

Yoshi Dtaunt can dodge Pit Arrows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIN_T9Tms0o&feature=related

 

[Poltergust]

oh btw. I has a question.

What type of priority does lucas' PK fire have?

it's not exactly transcendent, because you can clank w/ it using marth's sword.

butttttttt it does do weird things [I.E. it literally beats Falco/Fox laser and keeps going.]

it also beats stuff like Diddy's Banana and other stuff. ._.

I don't know how many people know this, but Lucas' PK Fire actually has two hitboxes: the firebolt and the flame pillar. The firebolt does 1% and the flame pillar does 7-8%, if I remember correctly. This is very similar to Yoshi's eggs, except that the flame pillar won't appear if it collides with a shield, but the explosion hitbox of Yoshi's eggs will still appear.

Also, Fox's and Falco's lasers are classified as "laser" projectiles and do not interact with other hitboxes.

Yoshi has something similar on his dash grab. It's really lame. =/

Actually, I don't think Yoshi's hitbox on his dash-grab disappears, it just comes out at a point a bit ahead of Yoshi's mouth. Thus, he's not able to grab slim characters with his dash-grab at point-blank range. This doesn't happen with his standing-grab and pivot-grab because he also has a hitbox near his mouth when performing them.

Of course, I can't confirm this because NO ONE HAS DONE A HITBOX VIDEO FOR YOSHI YET. -_-

 

[Xebenkeck]

Z axis da bes

Yoshi Dtaunt can dodge Pit Arrows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIN_T9Tms0o&feature=related

lol i remember a vid of luigi dodging falco's lasers bcuz his fireballs push his head into the z-axis. Ness's shielddrop animation does the same thing, pushes his head into the z-axis

Also a lil late but does snakes up-smash have shield-stun bcuz that is a move i do render as a projectile

 

[phi1ny3]

I think a better example of the strange relationship between a transcendent projectile and PK fire is Diddy's banana, iirc ADHD was talking about how the banana will collide with the fire.

lol i remember a vid of luigi dodging falco's lasers bcuz his fireballs push his head into the z-axis. Ness's shielddrop animation does the same thing, pushes his head into the z-axis

Also a lil late but does snakes up-smash have shield-stun bcuz that is a move i do render as a projectile

The little hit from the mortar launcher does but the mortar itself doesn't give him any.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's a part of Wario's mid-air jump that puts him in the Z-Axis. I've seen a video where ROB's Neutral-B goes through him with no interaction at all.