Official BBR Tier List v5

[~Pink Fresh~]

I thought a projectile was definied as a move, that when used the other player suffers from hitlag/shield lag, but not the player using the projectile.

 

[stingers]

thats a pretty good definition.

 

[DanGR]

Then again he dies at 50 from GR to Dair so there is still some kinda hope to recover if he's been gimped

People still die from that?

 

[_Kadaj_]

You're probably saying that because you don't know that there are ranges in which MK can't tech or SDI into the stage to actually be close enough to touch it.

But I mean hey I don't like sharing these kinda things so go figure.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I thought a projectile was definied as a move, that when used the other player suffers from hitlag/shield lag, but not the player using the projectile.

That makes plenty of sense to me.

 

[DanGR]

You're probably saying that because you don't know that there are ranges in which MK can't tech or SDI into the stage to actually be close enough to touch it.

But I mean hey I don't like sharing these kinda things so go figure.

Yeah, I figured excellent QCDI would be enough. Guess not, eh...

Edit:

I thought a projectile was definied as a move, that when used the other player suffers from hitlag/shield lag, but not the player using the projectile.

Then I guess if using this rule one would say most of Olimar's attacks are considered projectiles.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Depends on how far you are away from the ledge, the closer you are with the maximum amount of distance you have to run and spike the more abysmal QCDI is going to be

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Then I guess if using this rule one would say most of Olimar's attacks are considered projectiles.

Olimar doesn't suffer from hitlag on most attacks?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Then I guess if using this rule one would say most of Olimar's attacks are considered projectiles.

Does Olimar experience hitlag when he hits with his ground moves?

 

[DanGR]

No hitlag on pikmin attacks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No hitlag on pikmin attacks.

Even his aerials?

 

[_Kadaj_]

A bit on his aerials Luis, but not too much on his smashes. The only thing you'd really be punishing is his actual animation

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

need frame datas prease.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A bit on his aerials Luis, but not too much on his smashes. The only thing you'd really be punishing is his actual animation

I was gonna say, "Man, U-Air must be super-punishable if he whiffs..."

I've always thought of Pikmin as projectiles, so I guess his aerials are the exception to the rule.

 

[DanGR]

Pretty sure his smashes and throws have no hitlag, making his smash attacks 'projectiles' by all definitions of the word. And his aerials have a little hitlag... along with some other strange qualities like being able to clash cancel...
?

Ugh, I did all this testing a while ago, forgot some stuff, and don't feel like going through it again. Ask Hilt for frame data if you're interested.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pretty sure his smashes and throws have no hitlag, making his smash attacks 'projectiles' by all definitions of the word. And his aerials have a little hitlag... along with some other strange qualities like being able to clash cancel...

So his aerials are glide attacks now?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

oh btw. I has a question.

What type of priority does lucas' PK fire have?

it's not exactly transcendent, because you can clank w/ it using marth's sword.

butttttttt it does do weird things [I.E. it literally beats Falco/Fox laser and keeps going.]

it also beats stuff like Diddy's Banana and other stuff. ._.

 

[stingers]

isn't there like a 7% rule or something where like if a hitbox does 7% or more damage then another hitbox it overpowers it?

or something?

its like a really vague memory but I think I remember reading it in like '08 >.>

 

[Death Arcana]

sounds like toon links bombs lol

 

[DanGR]

So his aerials are glide attacks now?

That would actually make sense, except a part of their "priority," in that regard, depends on the health of the pikmin. :<

Or is that with his smashes... I don't remember, tbh. ._.

 

[Lokinario]

Brawl keeps getting more and more complex to me as I read about it. Oh, God. But let's not get off topic.

We desperately need a solid definition for "projectile" in Brawl so we can move on.

 

[stingers]

pink freshes definition is the best one, even though it's really not the way you'd ordinarily describe a projectile

sort of like how a second is defined as "The time needed for a cesium-133 atom to perform 9,192,631,770 complete oscillations."

 

[Lokinario]

I completely agree. But wouldn't this classify moves like Mach Tornado as a projectile? That would be kinda (kinda?) strange.

 

[John12346]

If it makes Pit say "Nice Try!" when it hits his Mirror Shield, it's a projectile.

Things like Ike's Aether, Falco's Reflector, and all of Olimar's smashes can be argued to be projectiles, but they're not considered projectiles by the game itself.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

"A projectile is an object or other attack that moves independently of the character that used it"

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Projectile

Does that work?

Edit: it also says Oli's smashes are considered projectiles.

Edit2: " Projectiles also cause the target to take hitlag while the user does not, which allows a few free frames of action."

:D

 

[Spelt]

olimar's smashes ARE projectiles, pretty sure even the game defines them as such.

 

[John12346]

Well, if they are projectiles, they're the only ones in the game that can't be reflected.

Lucky Olimar.

 

[Laem]

There's some others too.
Waddle dees and doos at least.

 

[Chuee]

"A projectile is an object or other attack that moves independently of the character that used it"

So by that definition Lucas' Usmash is a projectile lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So by that definition Lucas' Usmash is a projectile lol.

Doesn't the attack freeze due to hitlag, just like any other attack...?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Yes, yes it does.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

About Olimar, that's correct. Olimar doesn't suffer hitlag during his smashes or throws. But he does during his aerials, all of them.

 

[Orion*]

Melee banned lots of stages just to limit the laser camping potential of Fox.

We have banned stuff like Corneria and Norfair because of a small number of characters.

ban fox, stages are obviously more important

I\'d just argue that Meta Knight does a much better job at creating those opportunities for gimps than almost any character, and he certainly has the best ability to do so when they\'re offstage (outside of, like, Wario with a good Waft, maybe). The risk/reward factor is very heavily skewed in Meta Knight\'s favor when compared to others\' gimping game (where most characters still have it skewed in their direction at least a fair amount).

ill give you that his gimp games are definitely top, and its not unreasonable to set up into them even at high level matches

but its not something you see THAT often outside of m2k, (whos specialty is gimping- even in melee)

outside of him *cough outlier * i dont see mks gimping as often as you make it sound at high level play

It\'s one that he can use at virtually ANY time, though. If the opponent doesn\'t have his projectiles out already (Diddy and Snake both come to mind), why -wouldn\'t- you do this move? As if it weren\'t hard enough to get in on Meta Knight when he has the lead...Now opponents have to worry about running into a move that was done for no reason other than the fact that it\'s stupidly safe.

you can punish it by the HM sound on reaction (maybe mines really good? O_o)

every time i hear the sound and im shielding i usually just either grab or upB oos or dash attack/jab/tilt w/e

then again all of the characters i play have the frame data/speed to punish it easily minus maybe wario so idk ._.

i didnt factor in like kirby or something because, linear characters do in fact lose to the move.

I guess...I was under the impression that N-Air covered a lot of Falco\'s options, including his obnoxious spotdodge. It\'s pretty safe to \"just throw out,\" and make for a fantastic OoS option. Massive damage and shreds up shields. It\'s good for punishing a lot of things, \"mistakes\" or not.

it doesnt always beat falcos spotdodge unless you are reading the timing
and falco can wait to sideb until after the nair hitbox is out very easily-

i think in either situation tornado is soooo much easier to use unless you see a roll. especially because if you see yourself getting jabbed during the startup (youre mashing B) just di up and falcos jab is unsafe on hit so he will get shuttle looped LOL

I\'ll give you that; vertical KO characters can do a number on Meta Knight. That said, Meta Knight is really good at avoiding getting hit, too; among the best, for sure.

well obviously, falco, diddy, wario are all great evasion as well. its a solid top tier quality, lol

i think mks is the best (because planking) but its not the godsend if you have a LGL in place

I mean \"difficult\" as \"it gets to the point where all you can do is guess where he\'s gonna be when he lands.\" Miss your grab? Get the **** again. I guess if you say that \"if you can\'t punish a move, we\'re just not good enough at the game yet,\" then we should legalize the Infinite Dimensional Cape, too. The reason we can\'t reliably punish smart use of Tornado is because you -have to guess.- His mobility is too good to be able to judge reliably, since he could always go on the other side at the very last bit or land on the platform, etc.

IDCape is not comparable because you cant punish it if they keep doing it forever....

although its kinda gay i do want it to be legal. i wouldnt even stall w/ it i just like EDC it looks to cool

Very, very few characters can cover the distance of Meta Knight\'s F-Tilt in ten frames and punish, even if they know he\'s going to cancel it. That being said, even if they could (and they certainly can for the twenty frames of the second swing), you still have to watch out for the rest of the attack, potentially. You shouldn\'t have to make that many reads just to get around a single move. >_> Also, situation reset isn\'t going to help much when Meta Knight has the lead. Why would Meta Knight give chase like that? He\'s Meta Knight. Players should be smarter than that.

because you have the advantage of being able to safely reset until you see a pattern, therefore metaknights gaining no direct advantage from it and it becomes a reading game?

you can argue advantage of the timer but you have 8 minutes to properly guess when he's gonna ftilt- not that hard LOL

The trouble comes in with the fact that Meta Knight has multiple jumps, and his fastfall speed isn\'t so similar to his normal fall speed. They make all the difference as far as timing goes. Mix it up, and there isn\'t much chance for most characters to deal with U-Air, let alone all his other moves.

all FFed airs as far as a juggle or nuetral situation goes outside of up air are pretty situational...

they all have significant ending and FFed lag (outside of fair/bair and just buffering sdi up gets you out and DIs properly for all of the airs minus uair so its not that hard lol)

Choosing ****tier options can be better when it makes other characters have ****tier options, too. Compared to Meta Knight, most characters\' option pool become much smaller in that case. After all, there\'s always using Mach Tornado to go to the Smashville platform, right?

platform cancel

inb4wario

You could always time the opponent out. Meta Knight is really, really good at that, even without ledge abuse. More often than not, Meta Knight will have the lead throughout the match (that\'s my understanding, at least). If you use other things beforehand, D-Air camping can make all the difference as far as keeping that lead goes.

timeouts are really becoming less and less viable in brawls metagames imo (coming from someone who relied on them ), but i will leave that for another discussion lol

It\'s okay--There\'s no real arguing against the fact that some characters prefer it. However, I still feel that the good outweighs the bad, for sure.

of course the good outweighs the bad, he's the best character in the game, nobodys trying to argue that xD

Well, out of curiosity, what do you feel makes a move a projectile?

PF has me

As far as dashing being risky goes, a quick shield or jump just outside of an opponent\'s range allows you to use all of the options available to your character, which is risky for the opponent, given the fact that Meta Knight\'s number of options is far higher in most situations...But, if we were talking about the glide toss options (I forget, hah), he gets a whole lot out of the slide itself. Squirtle does, too.

shield < grab

so once again beaten lol

jump works, like empty sh and then you can jump dair, ff ftilt or nado or w/e

but it still all loses or goes even w/ a properly spaces running shield

need frame datas prease.

Pretty sure his smashes and throws have no hitlag, making his smash attacks 'projectiles' by all definitions of the word. And his aerials have a little hitlag... along with some other strange qualities like being able to clash cancel...
?

Ugh, I did all this testing a while ago, forgot some stuff, and don't feel like going through it again. Ask Hilt for frame data if you're interested.

About Olimar, that's correct. Olimar doesn't suffer hitlag during his smashes or throws. But he does during his aerials, all of them.

SALTSALTSALTSALTSALT

 

[Spelt]

ban fox, stages are obviously more important

and while you're at it, ban sonic and keep hyrule legal instead.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i cant speak for the old school meleers.

but theres a lot of things that were or are ignored for good reasons.

platform canceling was discovered i think in early 09 or late 08 but people havent been able to apply in a skillful manner until a couple months ago.

Cause when people tell them it's important most people ignore em.

Then 2 years down the line people see players win tournaments with it and are like lolwut?

 

[John12346]

ill give you that his gimp games are definitely top, and its not unreasonable to set up into them even at high level matches

but its not something you see THAT often outside of m2k, (whos specialty is gimping- even in melee)

outside of him *cough outlier * i dont see mks gimping as often as you make it sound at high level play

There are a lot of matches with MK gimps. I've seen plenty of matches in person with MK getting those low percent kills offstage.

you can punish it[Fsmash] by the HM sound on reaction (maybe mines really good? O_o)

every time i hear the sound and im shielding i usually just either grab or upB oos or dash attack/jab/tilt w/e

then again all of the characters i play have the frame data/speed to punish it easily minus maybe wario so idk ._.

i didnt factor in like kirby or something because, linear characters do in fact lose to the move.

Fsmash has 15 frames of endlag.
It apparently takes 10 frames of human reaction to punish.
That gives 5 frames to punish if you're working off reaction. To cover the distance and counterattack... there aren't many characters who can do that in 5 frames...

The only way you can correctly punish it is if you correctly guess when MK releases the Fsmash, or if he fully charges it.

i think mks is the best (because planking) but its not the godsend if you have a LGL in place

You also believe planking is too good, to the point that it gives him the best avoid game in Brawl?

Plus MK can waste a lot of time off of just a few ledgegrabs, anyway...

because you have the advantage of being able to safely reset until you see a pattern, therefore metaknights gaining no direct advantage from it and it becomes a reading game?

you can argue advantage of the timer but you have 8 minutes to properly guess when he's gonna ftilt- not that hard LOL

Ftilt hit 1 on shield to loads of Dtilt every time shouldn't be punishable. Even if you see it coming.
10 frames of lag on Ftilt 1
10 frames to react to that hit on your shield. Assuming you've established MK will Dtilt afterwards every time.
You have to punish in 3 frames or he'll hit you/your shield, which is just unreasonable for a lot of characters, considering shield drops take >3 frames, and most grabs can't cover MK's Ftilt/Dtilt distance.

all FFed airs as far as a juggle or nuetral situation goes outside of up air are pretty situational...

they all have significant ending and FFed lag (outside of fair/bair and just buffering sdi up gets you out and DIs properly for all of the airs minus uair so its not that hard lol)

Reaction times make it very hard for you to input SDI for Fair and Bair. And Uair is too good, since it has almost no hitlag to SDI on, but you seem to agree on that...

platform cancel

inb4wario

I think Reflex meant when MK travels a large distance to avoid punishment on Nado by landing on SV's platform, it's hard to punish...

There are also times where I've seen MK end Nado high enough over the ledge so they grab it out of the endlag.

timeouts are really becoming less and less viable in brawls metagames imo (coming from someone who relied on them ), but i will leave that for another discussion lol

Maybe for everyone except MK. >____>

He has too many tools, man. Planking, scrooging, air camping, EDC at times, SV platform stalling... of course it's all matchup dependent, but come on, you know he has what it takes to get the job done against any character.

Except MK himself.
.
.
.
.
.
Also, Orion, about what we discussed at VC9(?). Yes, NOW I'm taking a public offensive against MK.

And you can also find MK frame data here. You said you never had frame data.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

See, there is a problem, more people whom are pros play as Link, than any other character. Smash boards, either get your fact straight, or I will shut this down with the FCC's help. 3/4 of the world's people play as Link.

Lol what...

 

[Shaya]

Marth v MK has always been about what happens first:

(Marth gets grab release dair spike or fsmash tipper LOL against MK gimping us; the latter is more likely to happen, hence slight advantage).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Marth v MK has always been about what happens first:

(Marth gets grab release dair spike or fsmash tipper LOL against MK gimping us; the latter is more likely to happen, hence slight advantage).

I'm glad the Marth boards have guides created specifically for the Meta Knight matchups. That's being proactive about the situation.

 

[Nike.]

Yo dawg, I hear people were talking about Marth 3 pages ago, and I can't really keep up with this thread in its entirety at the moment.

Marth's dancing blade has 1 frame of hit lag on each hit.
Some character's just naturally have weird hurtboxes that can actually just hold back and somehow avoid 'traditional' db. Those characters are Zero Suit, Diddy and Pikachu. Maybe Lucario too.
The BBR has been doing a match up project for a bit now, and I've found it quite humorous that some people have argued with me match ups saying that dancing blade was easy to DI.

A while back, I took the time out to publicly mention hundreds of millions of times that dancing blade should not be getting di'd out of reliably as long as you do the second hit upwards, as the direction of the move sends them towards Marth.

Also Marth's 3rd hit downwards can clash, it's a weird exception that I believe has to do with it being a spike. I also believe it has more than 1 frame of hitlag to it as well.

Doing DB1 > DB2 UP > DB3 Down > DB4 Neutral is pretty much a guaranteed tipper on the last hit, which is pretty meh but its interesting.
Dancing Blade is still probably one of the individual best moves in the game.

------------

If anyone has any Marth related questions or any BBR related questions (I gotz da authoritay~) feel free to ask.

I thought only Shield Stun was 1 frame, and that the hitlag itself was 4ish frames (depending on which one you used)?

Tired of random techs before DB4, so I've been looking at Dancing Blade alot the past week.