Official BBR Tier List v5

[John12346]

Falco and maybe Peach? Just guesswork.

 

[Juushichi]

Man, Fuujin has the best callouts ever.

Oops, better be on topic. Diddy doesn't really lose to either of those characters, John#'s. He might be disadvantaged on neutrals against Falco. Maybe.

 

[Savon]

Diddy has a very INTERESTING MU with Luigi because of his sliding, but I cannot honestly say what characters Diddy flatout loses to. Snake does NOT beat Diddy from the experiences I have had playing Diddy. The MU is a fun one, but by no means is it in Snakes favor. I say it is even and if not even SLIGHTLY in Diddys favor.

I am not sure if Diddy has any characters who beat him, but Diddy does not invalidate most of the cast the way MK does.

 

[Chuee]

okay yeah but honest question

who does diddy lose to? i can't think of anyone off the top of my head except maybe snake, right?

Maybe add Wario and Falco, don't know of anyone else though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you know what coney

that the beauty in the whole situation

THERES NO CONSENSUS.
we cant all agree on who beats diddy or goes even with him. and you know what thats gonna do?

its going to result in a flood of people trying every character under the sun to try to beat him.

Diverse Metagame.

 

[Coney]

you guys see my point though, right?

i mean i'm a pretty heavily anti-MK just because absolutely anyone can beat my character with him regarded they know the MU

but i feel like people talk about his MU spread like it's the main problem, when there's a dark horse two spots below him who has the same dominance, albeit in a different way

sure, diddy has more near-even matchups all down the tier list as opposed to MK who has a few near-evens at the top, but many of the issues with MK were the fact that he can't be CP'd by anyone but himself, no disadvantageous matchups and all that, and i'm not so sure if diddy has any either. sure, diddy might have a harder time with mario than MK does, but he's still got the advantage

get what i'm saying? better the devil you know, and all that

EDIT - also @ kid, that's not really fair though

we still can't decide whether MK beats everyone or goes even with diddy and falco, and remember the wario squirtle yoshi bowser snake jigglypuff and now FOX crazes? that stuff's already happening, in a sense without him the situation has a possibility of just resetting the metagame

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I dunno. I feel that Diddy loses to Wario, even if it's still close to even. Squirtle (yeah, I went there) probably has a slight advantage. Peach, yeah. Perhaps Olimar. Perhaps Falco. Don't the Ice Climbers do alright, as well?

 

[Espy Rose]

I would think that another thing Diddy has that Meta Knight doesn't is that Diddy could be stage counterpicked as well.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Diddy doesn't really **** many though, he goes even/has a slight advantage over most of the cast.

 

[Savon]

Not to mention the fact that even when Diddy counter picks he does not DEMOLISH characters on his Cps the way MK does

 

[Coney]

I would think that another thing Diddy has that Meta Knight doesn't is that Diddy could be stage counterpicked as well.

absolutely true, didn't even consider it. good point.

Diddy doesn't really **** many though, he goes even/has a slight advantage over most of the cast.

yeah but that was my point, if you're going to ban a character for having no bad matchups and destroying bad characters, but allow a character that has no bad matchups but barely beats bad characters, that's not fair. they both possess the same characteristic of just beating everyone, whether it's just-barely or complete domination.

and i mean if you're actually just upset at MK's dominance and his safety as a character that's cool, whatever, but don't take issue with his MU spread

 

[Sinister Slush]

i mean i'm a pretty heavily anti-MK just because absolutely anyone can beat my character with him regarded they know the MU

sure, diddy has more near-even matchups all down the tier list as opposed to MK who has a few near-evens at the top, but many of the issues with MK were the fact that he can't be CP'd by anyone but himself, no disadvantageous matchups and all that, and i'm not so sure if diddy has any either. sure, diddy might have a harder time with mario than MK does, but he's still got the advantage

get what i'm saying? better the devil you know, and all that

we still can't decide whether MK beats everyone or goes even with diddy and falco, and remember the wario squirtle yoshi bowser snake jigglypuff and now FOX crazes? that stuff's already happening, in a sense without him the situation has a possibility of just resetting the metagame

As much as I hate MK, I think Diddy Kong isn't at his level of MU's yet. Since some characters can actually go even with him depending on the stage, while MK here has little to no bad CP's if i'm correct.

Also Isn't MK dittos 60:40 though?

 

[Savon]

How the hell can a ditto be anything but even?

 

[Coney]

also, one more thing i forgot to mention: only three or four diddys have ever really dominated, ever, as opposed to the amount of MKs that have done exceptionally well. maybe this is an ease-of-use thing, but maybe not.

How the hell can a ditto be anything but even?

for snakes, port priority!

 

[DMG]

Diddy has a few near 6:4ish. Snake and Wario probably are the only ones (outside of MK unless you think Diddy goes even with him) that could do it imo.

The only other thing I could think of would be Kosmos's Peach against Diddy. Good ****ing GOD he was sick against Diddy. IDK if that was because Peach does extremely well against him, or if that was just Kosmos ****ing up people near his prime, but yeah.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Peach seems to have at least a slight advantage, it seems.

I see Diddy's matchup spread and like to compare him to Marth. His fundamentals are excellent, he has a small handful of characters that have a slight advantage against him and manages to go even or slightly better with most of the cast. Still, the weaknesses are there, and I would hardly call him "dominating" in that.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol if by small for Marth = 2 then ok

 

[bigman40]

yeah but that was my point, if you're going to ban a character for having no bad matchups and destroying bad characters, but allow a character that has no bad matchups but barely beats bad characters, that's not fair. they both possess the same characteristic of just beating everyone, whether it's just-barely or complete domination.

and i mean if you're actually just upset at MK's dominance and his safety as a character that's cool, whatever, but don't take issue with his MU spread

The difference with MK is that in this kind of metagame, it's almost a requirement to have a pocket MK due to the fact how he interrupts most of the balance. He's not in a legitimate place to be CP'ed (character wise and stage wise) as Diddy and Marth can (I included Marth cause the discussion about this before had Marth this slippery slope scenario), then MK has **** stages he can choose to straight up nearly turn matchups into a temporary un-winnable scenario. Diddy isn't known MU spread wise because Diddy is shadowed by MK.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

lol if by small for Marth = 2 then ok

Yeah. Two is a small number, after all.

That said, Marth has some 50-50 matchups, I imagine. Snake is arguable, Diddy Kong is arguable, maybe Ice Climbers, maybe ROB. It's hardly an "I RUN THIS ****" sort of thing, especially when Marth is sitting on more than a few potential 55-45 matchups, as well as a clear disadvantage against King Dedede. I don't know too much about Marth; which characters would you call outright even?

 

[Espy Rose]

Donkey Kong...and Wolf...maybe Zero Suit Samus?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I thought dk beat marth?

 

[Espy Rose]

Even better if he does.

 

[Exdeath]

I thought dk beat marth?

Pierce thinks that it's 65-35 in Donkey Kong's favor...

 

[_Kadaj_]

For Marth I'd say the only even mu's are Falco, and Diddy

Pretty much everyone else either outright loses or barely loses like Rob, DK, Ic's, wolf, Zss, Snake, Pika etc.

The ones he loses to MK and D3 both 55/45


lol @ 65-35. Definitely NOT the case :laughs:

 

[Juushichi]

Somehow, I really don't think characters like ROB, DK or Wolf lose to Marth. It seems as even as even can be. Not going to lie, I don't know what ZSS vs Marth is like, but I've seen the three that I mentioned before being played.

Maybe not at the highest level Marth can be played, but again... I somehow doubt the best Marth's vs the best ROB's, DK's or Wolves would be anything but even.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How is Falco even? Marth seems to be a step ahead of Falco throughout--I imagine it as a slight advantage for Marth.

Some of those slight losses are arguable, too. I feel you may be a bit too optimistic about the character. Marth is quite good, but I see some of those as 50-50, like Ice Climbers and Snake. ROB, too. Perhaps I just don't know enough, though.

 

[etecoon]

Maybe not at the highest level Marth can be played, but again... I somehow doubt the best Marth's vs the best ROB's, DK's or Wolves would be anything but even.

this depends largely on how good the players are, just because you take the best of one character and pit them against the best of another character does not mean they are equally skilled

I think those MU's are pretty close to even but more likely to lean against marth than for, with DK and ROB at least

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why do people think Peach beats Diddy again?

 

[Luigi player]

I don't really think you can CP Diddy without MK, except maybe with Wario on a few stages where you might be able to "run away" or something. Not sure on which stages that is possible though but I guess Wario could try it on all stages that aren't SV or FD anyway and I don't think any (CP-)stages would really help him exceptionally well with that.

And it's not MKs fault that you don't ban broken stages like RC/Brinstar so everyone get's ***** by MK.


All those Diddy "counters" don exits.

MK is the only one that slightly beats him.

Snake/Falco are even, and Diddy beats Peach. (imo) Have you heard of a Falco that mostly beats (one of) the top Diddys? Felix says the MU is really even and also beat DEHF (who, admittedly, probably didn't know the MU that well though). Diddys lose games to Falco (but really, that happens to every char), but nearly never Sets.

In europe the hardest MU for me is Marth (well, obvious, since Ramin and Leon are just too good!), but I still feel Diddy beats him 55:45 (not to mention ADHD, Gnes AND Felix already beat Mikehaze the last times they played (MLGs/etc) and Felix also said in the old Marth MU thread that he doesn't think the MU is even (after he beat MH)).

 

[_Kadaj_]

Idk man I have winning records over those 3, including some of if not the best over those 3 characters

 

[Abel1994]

Wario lol no one uses him n wolf should be C tier and make pit in front of Rob

 

[etecoon]

marth beats snake cleanly IMO

no idea about IC's, stupid character I would never use anyone but MK against them

 

[MJG]

Is it true that Wolf's fair has a bigger hit box than Marth's fair (no trolling intended)?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Why do people think Peach beats Diddy again?

She's never on the ground, trades with Diddy well in the air, can use items rather well against him, and edgeguards him pretty well.

 

[Luigi player]

Idk man I have winning records over those 3, including some of if not the best over those 3 characters

Really? And when was this? ADHD thought Marth beats Diddy some time ago (well like 2 years lol) and thought he was his hardest MU or something... did you beat them recently?

 

[_Kadaj_]

Luis it'd be easier to have Larry explain it. Although some of those 55/45s have some goo things going for them they fall short in a few areas.

Some very general ones would be none of them can land safely, they all get edgeguarded very badly by Marth, more often then not they all have trouble safely landing hits on Marth. They also have to fully commit to certain actions which often times than not are very unsafe especially considering Marth has one of the BEST defenses in the game.

on another note, if zoned properly they don't have any or very minimal answers to deal with Marths attacks (not to be confused with whiffing)


LP I was referring to the characters Juu named. Last time I played ADHD was a long time ago on wifi lol

 

[_Kain_]

Is it true that Wolf's fair has a bigger hit box than Marth's fair (no trolling intended)?

Yes. And Kadaj really your saying Marth beats Wolf just cause you beat Seagull? Beating one person =/=adv. Was it close? Maybe your a better player? The MU is even, Marth's spacing game is nullified cause Wolf's bair is just as good.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

She's never on the ground, trades with Diddy well in the air, can use items rather well against him, and edgeguards him pretty well.

I don't see how she trades well with him in the air. I think a Diddy who knows the match-up can shut her approaches down without too much trouble.

MK and maybe Snake appear to be the only characters that beat Diddy Kong - backed up by results in high level play [although recently Snake seems to be more even]. Everything else is more or less up in the air, especially the assumed advantages of Falco and Wario. Most of that seems to be based on clichéd "they can deal with bananas kind of well"-talk. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here but in almost all cases:

- The usage of key tools in the Diddy match-up is argued overly simplified
- Other key parts like Diddy's overpowered boxing game and his absurd radius of punishment are not taken into account enough
- Few of these match-ups can be backed up with results as they are typically still in Diddy's favor when the other party claims the match-up to be even.

Snake and MK being the only arguable exceptions.

Kadaj, I think you are really optimistic about Marth's match-up =/
Imo he loses to MK, DDD, DK, Diddy and is even at best with ICs. Then I'd put him as even against Wolf, ROB, Kirby, Snake.
Results vs other characters like Olimar or ZSS aren't favorable either and I can see why.

 

[_Kain_]

Omg he justs said if he zones we can't do nothing...well not gonna argue then LOL

 

[DMG]

I don't see how Marth loses or goes even with IC's. That matchup feels like you gotta do TOO damn much with IC's.