Official BBR Tier List v5

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is a horrible character.

Really? He's WAY better than Wolf.

 

[Browny]

I know that in spite of his MU spread, Marth is almost unviable because of the MK matchup and have seen it in person a handful of times.

Except when you watch live streams of all the big tournaments, you see the marths being taken out by a whole range of characters including his supposed heavy advantage matchups like pikachu.

TBH people john about his MU vs metaknight way too much as an excuse for his poor placings yet however bad that MU might be, it doesnt change the fact that IRL he really doesnt beat some of the characters he supposedly does in theory >_>

 

[Thebest1pj]

So if legan somehow beats m2k,larry,ally or atosmk does that mean link doesn't suck anymore?

 

[Juushichi]

Except when you watch live streams of all the big tournaments, you see the marths being taken out by a whole range of characters including his supposed heavy advantage matchups like pikachu.

TBH people john about his MU vs metaknight way too much as an excuse for his poor placings yet however bad that MU might be, it doesnt change the fact that IRL he really doesnt beat some of the characters he supposedly does in theory >_>

No, I agree with you too. Marth mains don't perform up to the level that he's supposed to, but I mean. He has the tools to. So what if the players aren't using tue tools right. We just need a top-level player to come around or come back to show us what we know about this character.

Just like Peach (idk, lol) and Pit (who has at least has a main that's won a tournament in the last three months).

 

[DMG]

Why can't the next tierlist be completely different from the previous one?
Is it because we would admit we were all *******es a year ago(which is, imo, a fair hypothesis)?
To be fair, dmg and moreso reflex, perception is illusion and you don't know what the future's gonna hold. Results = objective; looking at tools is way less objective, but admittedly not entirely subjective.

I don't think we were arguing that a characters placement on the tier list is set in stone. The tier list can, and inevitably, WILL change. I don't think we're arguing against that at all.


What we were talking about is the notion people seem to have, that tournament results fully or near fully dictate how good your character is. Not matches of the players duking it out, not a sitdown where you talk about the characters tools or talk to the players about their character/matchup, just simply the numbered result at the end. Ness - 3rd for example.


Even if you pair the result with information like who they played in Bracket or what stages were played on, it doesn't paint a very informative picture for you. All it tells you is that "Ness got 3rd and played these people to get there." What would that inform you of? You wouldn't know the following:




Character attributes/frame data/matchups/anything related to this subject


Information about the matches (How big of an effect did stages have on the matches? Were the matches close? How were both players playing during those matches? What specifically did the players do during the match? Did either player come up with something new that changes the matchup? etc)




If all I tell you is FOW placed 3rd and beat this list of players, what exactly have you learned about how good Ness is as a character? Well... the only thing you know basically would be "Hey look, Ness got 3rd". You wouldn't know anything about how FOW or his opponents played, and you certainly wouldn't learn anything about the character.






Genesis: Mango beats Armada. This is the only thing you have read: you were not able to attend the tournament, you haven't seen any matches. All you know is that Jiggs got 1st and Peach got 2nd. Now, tell me what you have learned about Jigglypuff or Peach as a character? Could you accurately judge how good those characters are based on this? You wouldn't know how much hype there was for the set, or how crazy those two played in their matches, or how clutch of a comeback Mango made that you can't even fully describe in words. You wouldn't learn anything about that matchup or the metagame. All you would have is that void, empty representation of who placed what, not how they did it or what transpired during the events.







Now, if his matches were recorded, and we sit down to watch them, and FOW displays a brilliant work around for his character's flaws in the most creative majestical way, then I will start to tap dance to La Cucaracha while shouting "NESS DA BESS". BUT, from what I saw of FOW's matches that were on livestream, I cannot reasonably say that I expect him to have worked around his characters flaws in that manner in those other matches.

 

[Shaya]

Marth ***** MK.

Loses to Dedede, Diddy and maybe ROB.

 

[-LzR-]

Rob? That MU is damn dead even.

 

[clowsui]

marth and ICs are both the same type of character, incredible potential but in terms of consistency require far more than even some of the best marth/ICs players have

 

[-LzR-]

Well yeah, too hard and no real reason to see the effort.

 

[Juushichi]

Marth ***** MK.

wakarimasen, lol​

 

[Orion*]

Why is the BBR discussing the banning of MK again? Shouldn't the BBRRC be doing that? I thought the old BBR's job was to post tier lists.

LOOOOOOL

This kind of trolling...
too much.

really...

When has DEHF ever even lost to a pikachu.

after 3/2 stocking rich brown game 1-3 he lost to rich's pika game 2 on FD LOOLLL

I once played FOW in a money match. We played for about five seconds. I grabbed him with Squirtle, and he said, "Oh, so you know about that," and forfeit the game.

Grab-releases on their own really invalidate Ness's bid as a decent character.

what can squirtle do? O_o

Yeah, I'mma do that!

hyped, just do what you would do with ZSS, and itll work but better

People waited on the stream for 5 hours to see that match.

The resulting **** and lolz were completely worth the wait.

Grab release to dash grab, to immediate grab break pushing both characters offstage to immediate mk down air stage spike.

It was so cash.

was their vids?

How does he approach characters with safe anti-aerials? Falco / Diddy utilt? Hell, even Mario utilt goes through his aerials and don't require the opponent to leave the ground or force them in their shields. Same goes for GW nair, Peach / DDD bair, not to mention MKs wall of anti-aerials.

*Edit* LP with that hard read <_<

this is like the WORST theory craft ive ever seen gotta be honest LOOOOL

there's something called airdodging, or even a bait. if wario gets in its SOOO much damage, its not that simple

Also, I think Wario's jab is underrated.

its pretty gay >:[

combos into like everything

I've watched it and it doesn't make any sense at all to use it as anti-Pit propaganda. Maybe if you showed him doing even worse as Pit?

agreed

lol...

where did you get the idea that 6-4 is a hard counter?

i was thinking the same thing....

burnt and Tesh have no idea what they're talking about.

I can't speak for X, but I under no circumstances was intentionally "stalling" anyone at MLG Dallas.
Tyrant and I only went to time because I managed to snag the lead away with, what, FIVE seconds left? Guess those five seconds I was in the lead were enough to qualify?

Only TWO of my games went to time out at MLG Dallas, burnt/Tesh, and they were both brought about by the campiness of my opponents (Olimar never has to approach, and Meta Knight can box Sonic out all day).

Having said that, I rarely EVER time people out, if at all. Aside from those two games out of...what, 34 games (2 vs. PeachGuard, 2 vs. Dakpo, 2 vs. Mr. Doom, 3 vs. DEHF, 2 vs. Zac, 2 vs. Shaky, 5 vs. Rich Brown, 3 vs. Tyrant, 5 vs. ESAM, 3 vs. Ally, and 5 vs. X) total, the last time I remember timing someone out in tournament was Dekar in Game 3 at ALS, which was SIX months ago.

Case in point, it's fairly rare for me to time someone out, so to Tesh/burnt/whoever, quit insinuating that it's the time out aptitude of my main that gives me the majority of my success, because that's just not true at all.

Yes, I'm mad. Pass the salt.

LOOOOL

omg ****

only person who goes into matches intending to purposely time people out is speed.

this was entertaining

must... sig...

and then...

i don't think speed actually goes into matches trying to time people out

he's just scared as **** of whoever is on the other end of the stage

true story, at sassy's house once while teaming with speed in a friendly, i told him to take chris (our crewmate, a ganon)

he was like WHAT?! as if i'd just sentenced him to be burned at the stake

LOOOOL i died XDDDDDDDDDDD

@DMG yet you blatently disregard characters who switch for match two of a set, and still proclaim they are good. They seem more restricted/limited than Ness. Interesting logic

yeah DMG explain this

And heres the supermassive black hole of logic - YOU DONT KNOW HOW GOOD/BAD NESS IS.

if i want to go by your crap logic that you use to "disprove EVERYTHING" then i can apply that to everything that you post as well unless you want to waste time giving me a large *** post of graphs and **** that i wont actually read.

youre ******** bro

It's not about poor results in the past. It's about glaring, massive flaws of the character.

reflex is so simply... right LOL

OK, but you can't prove this, you're just pretty sure because Ness is bad. Browny's right, you're wrong, suck it up.

you read a lot but you really dont understand very much about what Actually happens in this game yet i think :/
here comes another BPC/Jack keiser ect. i kinda just throw you all in the same boat. youre not stupid, you kinda know whats going on, but you dont actually understand what happens past the first layer of depth in this game, and then you think you can tell people that do know that theyre stupid because you have some conceived notion you actually understand more than them LOOOL

I suppose it takes a certain amount of understanding of how characters function in this game when their players know all of the options available to them.

maybe youre nicer about saying it though

This is surprising to me coming from someone who in the past has always preached mobility and movement being some of the best attributes in this game. Doesn't ness fit that criteria?

completely unrelated posts?

SFP and Browny present, the official IRC SSBB Tier list version 1.0, based on the USA metagame as of 25th January 2011.

wow really LOL, lets throw in shadowlinks theorys while youre in there

That list would be good, if Ness and Ike were better than characters like ROB, and if Pikachu and Olimar weren't worse than characters like Marth and Wario.

I mean I get what you're trying to do, but to be fair you know I'm gonna have to criticize that.

LOL

Hey Marth mains stop saying you're 6/4 with the whole cast and then like losing to Peach and getting 17th thanks

do you actually think when you try to look witty when making a post xD its so bad

Because ZSS has a good matchup on Diddy and can't lose to anything besides MK?

I'd take Marth's matchup spread over her's anyday. He's a better character with better tools, but okie dokie let's put her in front above him. I mean by that logic of Marth having bad placements means he's worse, then why was he not put under Fox? Fox definitely has better placements lately than him.

thank you

He doesn't even follow his own criteria

its because they dont understand their criteria LOL

 

[da K.I.D.]

Death: The real question is how did his opponents play? If they failed to abuse his flaws, well no johns but shame on them. If he completely circumnavigated his flaws with other tools and beat his opponents, you would see them unable to abuse his flaws because of that. I doubt he beat people because he came up with something for his character that others couldn't abuse his static flaws, so I'd have to guess they didn't abuse the characters weaknesses to a sufficient degree.

If you watched the stream it would have made complete sence. when FOW was in his zone, and in the positions he wanted to be in, he was definitely going even with m2k. but then m2k would get a grab in, or get ness offstage and it would be like a 10 second stock loss. same for dehf

the thing you have to realise, is that m2k and dehf both thoroughly crushed fow. But they did it using things THAT ANY AND EVERY PLAYER COULD DO.

quite honestly, any reasonably skilled player could beat fows ness if they played the right character and camped for grabs hard enough.

But do you know why ness wins? its because people go into the match thinking, 'oh, ness is bad, I dont need to try or have any plan in place going into this match. i can just steam roll him' and then they play without taking advantage of any of the things that make the character bad in the first place. and that can AND HAS happened with every character. If you are overly aggressive and try to shield everything and dont think about your tech rolling. your still going to lose to ganon no matter who you play, because those things play DIRECTLY into ganons strengths. ive seen it happen and ive done it myself.

They didn't. Not from what I saw. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for FOW and it's good to see Ness doing some work, but at the same time I know that Ness isn't exactly super viable. Not to mention the last like, 5 things I've heard from people were, "The West Coast has no idea what to do against B Tier and lower".

I was there for this and the first thing I said when i go to that chat room was:

'Tyrant loses to so many mid/low tier characters that its not even an accomplishment to beat him anymore'

It doesn't matter whether or not he lost to Mew2King or CharizardTrainer94--It's what's exploitable that counts. Did you see what happened in those matches?

this, see my above comment.

I beat ESAM. It was easy.


Seriously though, I think ESAM gets these big wins because people don't know the Pikachu MU.

very very few people know how to fight pikachu.
I will admit thoroughly up and down that esam is probably a better player than me. but I still beat him because I knew everything about his character, and he knew next to nothing about mine.

So im going to help you guys out.

If you have to fight a pikachu. Hes going to spam grab at the beginning of every stock. dont let him grab you.
and dont momentum cancel when you get sent up, thats just going to get you thundered.

So if legan somehow beats m2k,larry,ally or atosmk does that mean link doesn't suck anymore?

psh, legan mains zss now anyway...

Well yeah, too hard and no real reason to see the effort.

The Golden Rule of Brawl.

@orion, I believe that m2k vs fow didnt get recorded because the live stream set up wasnt set up to record the matches, they turned the stream off after dehf vs fow and I believe that the m2k vs dehf finals WERE recorded. at least thats who it was described to me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

what can squirtle do? O_o

Squirtle has a grab-release -> small step -> regrab almost-infinite (Squirtle's grab range is better than Marth's, you see). There is a small window between pummels where Squirtle cannot force a ground release, so while it's possible to get out that way, it requires luck. Also, if Ness manages to air release, I believe Squirtle gets a free F-Air. It's pretty discouraging and usually ends up dealing a lot of damage, if not taking a stock outright on its own.

maybe youre nicer about saying it though

I try to be civil.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Few people main Dedede at this point in Brawl, because it's become evident that the character's linearity is an issue, and people are negating his strong points by camping hard. Most Dedede mains since Brawl, have quit or moved on to better characters. When's the last time you heard Atomsk or Seibrik or even Lain really using Dedede as a main option in tournament?

DDD is still a character that i use for most matchups. I'd much rather go DDD vs Snake, Pikachu, Marth over Metaknight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

when I watch coney play, its like he knows that the character is super straight forward.

And he turns that into the characters main strength. his spacing is always tight and top notch. he very rarely messes up inputs technically. and he has stronger basics than almost anyone out there. thats why he beats people.

its like if you have him in the the air, hes either going to fall down and bair, fall down and inhale, or airdodge into an up tilt or something, but thats all he needs because those 3 options cover everything he needs to be safe on landing.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Hey Marth mains stop saying you're 6/4 with the whole cast and then like losing to Peach and getting 17th thanks

Is it my imagination or doesn't it seem like there is constant arguing between Marth Versus Peach?

 

[NAKAT]

People have mad time on their hands I see lol! 6-4 isn't a hard counter...at least in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

God, get over it people. He made an error, and it was corrected.

Big freaking deal.

 

[DMG]

No. I'm sorry, but him thinking 6:4 is a hard counter... explains ALL of his ramblings and bad matchup labeling. I've seen him put 65:35 and 6:4 matchups as 55:45... "Oh yeah it's only a soft counter".

 

[Poltergust]

Because 1 out of 7-ish sets vs. Polt's Yoshi is majority, right Slush?

I'M STILL EMOTIONALLY SCARRED! ;__;

But yeah, that was my fault for Egg Roll suiciding at like 6%. I almost brought it back, though. That was the first time I've ever gotten timed out in a tournament match, actually. It felt... weird.

Yoshi is a horrible character.

Go play Wolf.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle has a grab-release -> small step -> regrab almost-infinite (Squirtle's grab range is better than Marth's, you see). There is a small window between pummels where Squirtle cannot force a ground release, so while it's possible to get out that way, it requires luck. Also, if Ness manages to air release, I believe Squirtle gets a free F-Air. It's pretty discouraging and usually ends up dealing a lot of damage, if not taking a stock outright on its own.

Not sure why I didn't post this, too, but--

Charizard has a grab-release -> re-grab that inches him forward about one Ness length. At the edge, you can get a guaranteed sweetspotted D-Tilt (kills at ~100%) or just grab-release him off the level, forcing a REALLY bad situation.

If Ness tries to come up with an immediate aerial, it can get shieldgrabbed -> grab-released or F-Tilt'd, which is basically the end of Ness's stock.

If Ness uses his double-jump and immediately uses PKT1 to try to snap to the ledge, F-Tilt will hit him.

If Ness tries to wait and space his ledge grab, Charizard gets a fairly easy D-Air or practically guaranteed B-Air as he comes up (which will probably stagespike), or can simply Flamethrower or Rock Smash for lots of damage, to cancel his jump, and to prevent a ledge grab.

If Ness tries to airdodge onto the stage, he gets grabbed the other way, and the same thing happens.

If Ness tries to move away from the stage to recover with Up-B, Charizard's sourspot F-Air will cancel PKT1, and sweetspotted F-Air (for the bold) will knock Ness too far away to recover. B-Air will work well, too, as the great range and good power do their job here.

It's not a foregone conclusion, as Ness's fast, ranged aerials and variables in-between these situations must be accounted for, but it's reasonable to assume that this can be the end of many a stock.

 

[Deleted member]

@Polt: Yeah, Wolf is trash. G-tier.

 

[Tesh]

Originally Posted by Tesh

When has DEHF ever even lost to a pikachu.

*Orion

after 3/2 stocking rich brown game 1-3 he lost to rich's pika game 2 on FD LOOLLL

Are you talking about WGF? Thats not what happened at all. Rich brown got his olimar *****, then he went pika and his pika got ***** too, then he went back to olimar for the loss. It was 3/5 and he did worse with pika than he did with olimar game 3.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wolf up smash out of shield is one of the best punishing options in the game and is far better of a reasoning for moving him up the tier list than anything else.

It is a frame 5(?) long range move that hits both sides, does a rediculous 18% and sets up for wolfs aerials and at low percents, more up smashes.

discuss.

 

[Deleted member]

.AC. is the king of Wolf's upsmash.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wolf up smash out of shield is one of the best punishing options in the game and is far better of a reasoning for moving him up the tier list than anything else.

It is a frame 5(?) long range move that hits both sides, does a rediculous 18% and sets up for wolfs aerials and at low percents, more up smashes.

discuss.

It's pretty nice because of its range and safety, but the first hit comes out on Frame 13. It's hardly a godsend. >_>

 

[JCav]

Wolf up smash out of shield is one of the best punishing options in the game and is far better of a reasoning for moving him up the tier list than anything else.

It is a frame 5(?) long range move that hits both sides, does a rediculous 18% and sets up for wolfs aerials and at low percents, more up smashes.

discuss.

Frame 13 http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194120

Yes, it does 18%

Yes, it is a solid punisher.

It does a lot of damage, if both hits connect.

The problem is, while it is not slow, it's not THAT fast either.

Also, the second hit is very DI-able, and against a knowledgeable opponent, just settling for the second hit may be the best option for Wolf.

It is a good move, I agree, but there are a few things to look at

 

[Chuee]

Frame 13?
Even with JC Usmash OoS?
It never seemed that slow to me ;_;

 

[Die !]

Man, DMG made this thread not suck.

Wanna stop meat riding someone for once ?

 

[da K.I.D.]

frame 13 seems slow but when your basic method of punishing things is 7 frame unshield to whatever you wanna do. all of a sudden wolfs up smash is punishing stuff at almost the same speed as snakes f tilt.

 

[Chuee]

frame 13 seems slow but when your basic method of punishing things is 7 frame unshield to whatever you wanna do. all of a sudden wolfs up smash is punishing stuff at almost the same speed as snakes f tilt.

Can't you do a jump canceled Usmash OoS?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Frame 13 isn't too bad ... because the hitbox is so huge it punishes lots of moves regardless. He can use Nair OoS to punish quick close range moves where Usmash doesn't work. Wolf's DACUS is imo up there with Snake's if used right ... if you space it well you can safely hit a shield while sliding away from the opponent with a big hitbox behind you [it's not even that hard to do]. If you read a spotdodge, airdodge or roll you can punish it even from a distance. That move is so good.

Edit @ Chuee

Yes, you can...and it hits on frame 13.

 

[DMG]

Frame 13? Not impressed.

 

[Chuee]

Frame 13 is 1 frame short of Lucas' shieldgrab.

 

[DMG]

I think Wario can hit with the back part of Dsmash by that time

 

[TheReflexWonder]

frame 13 seems slow but when your basic method of punishing things is 7 frame unshield to whatever you wanna do. all of a sudden wolfs up smash is punishing stuff at almost the same speed as snakes f tilt.

But even Snake's F-Tilt isn't that great at punishing on shield against the better characters. These moves pale in comparison to the really good ones, like Olimar U-Smash, various Up-B's, and shieldgrabbing. People shouldn't be leaving themselves so open on shield often, anyway.

Frame 13 isn't too bad ... because the hitbox is so huge it punishes lots of moves regardless. He can use Nair OoS to punish quick close range moves where Usmash doesn't work. Wolf's DACUS is imo up there with Snake's if used right ... if you space it well you can safely hit a shield while sliding away from the opponent with a big hitbox behind you [it's not even that hard to do]. If you read a spotdodge, airdodge or roll you can punish it even from a distance. That move is so good.

Edit @ Chuee

Yes, you can...and it hits on frame 13.

Snake's DACUS is in a class of its own. You can't use Wolf's to get out of as many pressuring situations. Wolf's ground game doesn't warrant taking as much care to avoid, so people have fewer things to fear in general and can be deal for his DACUS much more readily. You can SDI out of the second hit if it's being used to attack, and if the first hit is avoided, it's pretty punishable.

Also, wouldn't the jump cancel take at least one frame to do before U-Smashing? Or can you buffer it into one continuous move?

 

[JayBee]

i don't think speed actually goes into matches trying to time people out

he's just scared as **** of whoever is on the other end of the stage

true story, at sassy's house once while teaming with speed in a friendly, i told him to take chris (our crewmate, a ganon)

he was like WHAT?! as if i'd just sentenced him to be burned at the stake

OMG i must sig this. poor speed what the hell man.

 

[Abel1994]

You guys are Pit haters!

 

[Spelt]

13 frames isn't that great when you compare it to the 2-3 frame up-b's.

 

[Die !]

You guys are Pit haters!

No, It's just Pit is a Meh Char.