Official BBR Tier List v5

[bigman40]

You clearly didn't notice all the faces that Orion had in his posts.

 

[Die !]

http://allisbrawl.com/medals.aspx?id=6609

While you're there, leave the ignorance and idiocy too please.
Or at least know what you're talking about.

I lol'd
I have much, better placings then he does


MM me at Pound 5 or Vc9

Though you'll prob go,

Oh dident know it was you (Anyone who wants to play me will find out who i am) trolling

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That being said, some people actually believe it, and some of those points are reasonable. Plus, I'd rather get trolled while calm than offend someone by taking something serious as a joke.

Regardless, it's still something to talk about.

 

[Deleted member]

Except...it -is- just ****ing Ness. :/

Getting molested due to obvious character limitations is different than simply being outplayed.

Except FOW wasnt trying because he had to wait 3 hours, it was 3am and he lost his controller?
for realz dudes

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Except FOW wasnt trying because he had to wait 3 hours, it was 3am and he lost his controller?
for realz dudes

I wouldn't say he wasn't trying, so much as he wasn't in the best condition.

Regardless, it happens to the best of us.

 

[Savon]

I hate when people just make a list of a chars pros and cons without weighing the significance of each one compared to the others. I am pretty sure that Orion is joking, but it is still something that people in this thread have a tendency to do. I could take that list of "cons" MK has and show to somebody with little knowledge about smash, and make MK look like complete crap.

Take Snake for example. His tilts are amazing, his kill power is great, his camping game is good, and his ability to rack up damage is almost unmatched. However is ability to be owned offstage and in the air is a big weakness. His pros are good and all, but that one weakness is a BIGGGG weakness.

I have a friend who plays Brawl casually and thinks that Luigi is broken because of his up-B and kill power. I told him Luigi has terrible mobility, but he does not see Luigis sliding as a real problem.

My point is that people need to stop cherry picking the pros and cons of a character without properly weighing the importance of them compared to other pros and cons. You can say that MK not having a projectile is a weakness, but is it really that big of a weakness compared to his pros?

 

[Spelt]

I have much, better placings then he does

As long as you didn't have to fight anyone in a mk ditto amirite?

 

[NickRiddle]

I lol'd
I have much, better placings then he does


MM me at Pound 5 or Vc9

Though you'll prob go,

Oh dident know it was you (Anyone who wants to play me will find out who i am) trolling

$10 MM at Pound?


Also, Ness is amazing!







































In doubles with ZSS.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, Ness is amazing!

In doubles with ZSS.

This. I do feel he's an above-average Teams character.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say the same applies to Lucas.

 

[Flayl]

Current populairty of low tiers and low-mid tiers (Without higher tier secondaries):

Character	Popularity	%
Yoshi	76	14,26
Sonic	67	12,57
Zelda/Sheik	52	9,76
Ike	46	8,63
Wolf	41	7,69
Lucas	36	6,75
Mario	34	6,38
Luigi	34	6,38
Link	28	5,25
Bowser	26	4,88
Ness	22	4,13
Pokémon Trainer	19	3,56
Samus	18	3,38
Ganondorf	13	2,44
Captain Falcon	12	2,25
Jigglypuff	9	1,69

Yoshi is more popular than Sonic.

I'm using Ripple's way of counting for popularity: 1 point for each appearance in a tournament with no differentiation between solo mains and secondaries

 

[Die !]

As long as you didn't have to fight anyone in a mk ditto amirite?

I just hate dittos in general
I handle myself just fine, It's just something I'd rather not do.

 

[Coney]

I just hate dittos in general
I handle myself just fine, It's just something I'd rather not do.

i'll mm you at pound but i reserve the right to say "oh, that's you," laugh once, and then dismiss said mm casually

 

[Ripple]

I have coney's hat!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Die !]

i'll mm you at pound but i reserve the right to say "oh, that's you," laugh once, and then dismiss said mm casually

Sounds good lol

 

[BSP]

I hate when people just make a list of a chars pros and cons without weighing the significance of each one compared to the others. I am pretty sure that Orion is joking, but it is still something that people in this thread have a tendency to do. I could take that list of "cons" MK has and show to somebody with little knowledge about smash, and make MK look like complete crap.

Take Snake for example. His tilts are amazing, his kill power is great, his camping game is good, and his ability to rack up damage is almost unmatched. However is ability to be owned offstage and in the air is a big weakness. His pros are good and all, but that one weakness is a BIGGGG weakness.

I have a friend who plays Brawl casually and thinks that Luigi is broken because of his up-B and kill power. I told him Luigi has terrible mobility, but he does not see Luigis sliding as a real problem.

My point is that people need to stop cherry picking the pros and cons of a character without properly weighing the importance of them compared to other pros and cons. You can say that MK not having a projectile is a weakness, but is it really that big of a weakness compared to his pros?

Or, we could stop talking about characters that we don't know about.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Who am I? lol it's a secret

 

[Orion*]

Ahh another idiot who assumes that someone wants attn. because they voiced their opinion

Go back to be being bad at brawl please, k ty

LOOOOL

Leave the 4chan @ 4 chan

4chans pretty cool bro

http://allisbrawl.com/medals.aspx?id=6609

While you're there, leave the ignorance and idiocy too please.
Or at least know what you're talking about.

i think like 1/10th of my tournaments are on that thing xD

You clearly didn't notice all the faces that Orion had in his posts.

i'll mm you at pound but i reserve the right to say "oh, that's you," laugh once, and then dismiss said mm casually

if he typed any worse i would say it bigm or ikon

i dont think anyone you couldnt beat would feed their ego on tier list thread by calling me bad xD

 

[John12346]

Edit: Nvm ninja'd by Spelt. Sorta...

 

[da K.I.D.]

As much as i dont like admitting to it. in terms of regular posters on this thread, Orion is probably the most skilled player here.

but aside from that. can some one re-explain to me why diddy would be the new mk with out mk around?

cause the stuff i saw seemed like some of the most terrible logic ive ever seen in this thread, but i want to make sure I heard it right.

 

[John12346]

I can hardly see Diddy being the next MK when people finally decide to buckle down and learn their characters' banana-footstool infinites. But like I said, Diddy will probably still remain high due to his massive item grab range.

It also doesn't help that Diddy actually has some counters that aren't MK.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If MK was banned there would definitely not be another "new MK." Other characters (all of them) have disadvantaged match-ups. Also, no other characters have two ways to indefinitely become invincible.

Also NickRiddle is better than Orion.

 

[Orion*]

The best gimp game by far, as well as nice KO moves in N-Air, Shuttle Loop, and F-Smash.
Smart use of Mach Tornado and generally super-safe moves makes getting grabbed by characters with grab-release potential really difficult.
He has a thirteen-frame U-Air animation, allowing him to jump earlier than anyone else, which greatly helps momentum canceling.
He has ridiculous aerials to prevent it from being punished, and his mobility becomes stupid whenever he wants it to due to Mach Tornado.
Transcendent priority is very rarely a problem, and it's hardly a clear weakness.
Again, his amazing gimping game allows for horizontal KOs to be no problem at all.
He has many moves that can function similarly, though.
Mach Tornado is a projectile, and transcendent priority could be argued as such.
Can't he just catch things with U-Air/D-Air?
Super distance, though; with his run speed, he hardly needs it.

IM GOING BY MEMORY SO IF IM OFF BY A FEW FRAMES I REALLY DONT CARE LOL, im generally confident i know approx where most of the frame data is so w/e

gimps =/= kill moves
nair has generally bad range, while being an amazing punish (oos if they mispace, or airdodge bad) its not going to just kill people without them already being in a awful awful position and making a mistake. Shuttle loop with correct DI really doesn't kill that well, but its still good. Fsmash while safe, is very reactable...

i think 23 frames startup? idk i may be wrong on that im not checking frame data thread lol. all i know is that once i here the "HUNG" sound MK makes i DIP lol

while maybe not getting grabbed after nado is pretty reasonable, even attempting it vs most grounded character minus ones with crap ground games already is generally not the best option. even if you dont get grabbed you probably will get punished

ftilt is great, but past the first one you are commited to the 3rd ftilt, both 2nd and 3rd having approx 20 frames of lag (first having 10 if you stop)

uairs not gonna help that much killing mk vertically. most good characters have this option

okay but once mk uses an air then he is FORCED to commit to something, which means that it is still quite punishable.

I didnt say clear, im just saying that its not some pure advantage and in some MUs can be taken advantage of, if even slightly.

Mach tornado and a SWORD being a projectile. If thats the case then snakes ftilt is a projectile. marths fair is a projectile. warios upair is a projectile. anything with a disjoint LMFAO, just because its better doesnt mean its a gun

catching w/ uair if their above you, and youre trying to juggle isnt so great, because then actually throwing the banana is worse than another uair probable -.-. maybe you could z drop it? idk its just not like the best solution but i can concede that

dashes are definitely very punishable :/ even if its fast theres lag before i can do anything, unless i want to upB or do any air, which are both beaten by shield

 

[TheReflexWonder]

IM GOING BY MEMORY SO IF IM OFF BY A FEW FRAMES I REALLY DONT CARE LOL, im generally confident i know approx where most of the frame data is so w/e

gimps =/= kill moves
nair has generally bad range, while being an amazing punish (oos if they mispace, or airdodge bad) its not going to just kill people without them already being in a awful awful position and making a mistake. Shuttle loop with correct DI really doesn't kill that well, but its still good. Fsmash while safe, is very reactable...

i think 23 frames startup? idk i may be wrong on that im not checking frame data thread lol. all i know is that once i here the "HUNG" sound MK makes i DIP lol

while maybe not getting grabbed after nado is pretty reasonable, even attempting it vs most grounded character minus ones with crap ground games already is generally not the best option. even if you dont get grabbed you probably will get punished

ftilt is great, but past the first one you are commited to the 3rd ftilt, both 2nd and 3rd having approx 20 frames of lag (first having 10 if you stop)

uairs not gonna help that much killing mk vertically. most good characters have this option

okay but once mk uses an air then he is FORCED to commit to something, which means that it is still quite punishable.

I didnt say clear, im just saying that its not some pure advantage and in some MUs can be taken advantage of, if even slightly.

Mach tornado and a SWORD being a projectile. If thats the case then snakes ftilt is a projectile. marths fair is a projectile. warios upair is a projectile. anything with a disjoint LMFAO, just because its better doesnt mean its a gun

catching w/ uair if their above you, and youre trying to juggle isnt so great, because then actually throwing the banana is worse than another uair probable -.-. maybe you could z drop it? idk its just not like the best solution but i can concede that

dashes are definitely very punishable :/ even if its fast theres lag before i can do anything, unless i want to upB or do any air, which are both beaten by shield

That's not fair, though. Being able to gimp incredibly easily is really helpful, especially with Shuttle Loop. N-Air is Airdodge/Spotdodge 2.0; there are plenty of good places to throw it in. F-Smash is nigh unpunishable; there's little reason NOT to do it.

Well, everyone has those 26 frames to wait before doing an aerial, but few people have an aerial that's even close to the thirteen that Meta Knight's U-Air takes; the frames shaved by using U-Air do help a lot.

Smart use of movement around platforms makes it pretty difficult to punish, regardless.

I maintain that Meta Knight's F-Tilt is probably his best move overall. You can cancel the first and second swing, or do the next swing at any time, so even if it's shielded, it turns into, "Will he continue the F-Tilt, or cancel into something else?" The opponent has to guess correctly at least twice before he has the opportunity to retaliate. This is further made awesome by his fast D-Tilt, which is also cancellable.

No other character has an aerial that takes thirteen frames to do the entire animation, or an aerial that comes out on frame 2. This, combined with the often-greater threat of the multi-hit/huge damage N-Air, and the very-powerful gimping machines of Shuttle Loop and D-Air, creates a situation where the guessing game is lost and works better than most characters as far as that goes.

Because of the floatiness of Brawl, multiple jumps, crazy range, and Meta Knight's Mach Tornado, trying to retaliate is usually a bad idea. That's why D-Airs at certain angles are so effective at bringing the match to a standstill.

Fair enough, but, what matchups would the opponent be gaining more out of Meta Knight having transcendent priority on his sword attacks than Meta Knight himself?

I often say that Snake U-Tilt is the best projectile in the game. The trancendent priority makes me want to single out Meta Knight's attacks over other disjointed hitboxes. Also, Mach Tornado is ridiculously good at being a projectile.

There are options, especially for a character with multiple jumps and excellent B moves. If you want to continue juggling, there's always Z-dropping, yeah.

But when you shield or jump just outside of their range, the fun starts...and few characters can reliably get past that.

 

[Orion*]

aight son imma wait but if i fall asleep ill answer tomorrow... 5:30 am here @_@

got back from a nice jazz club and watched terminator salvation

wanna go to bed soon class tomorrow lol

 

[demonictoonlink]

But really, MK's ftilt is definitely his best move.
Snake's is still better though.

 

[demonictoonlink]

If MK was banned there would definitely not be another "new MK." Other characters (all of them) have disadvantaged match-ups. Also, no other characters have two ways to indefinitely become invincible.

Also NickRiddle is better than Orion.

Well, planking isn't technically invincible...it just requires two characters to beat. Maybe IC's do to it lol

edit: damn, first double post in awhile.

 

[Orion*]

Also NickRiddle is better than Orion.

no ****

but Orion > ZSS so it doesnt matter

I cant remember playing him ever but I wouldn't be surprised if Reflex was better than me also, He's toogood

id even say that id win because he plays PT, but idk wtf to do vs that character LOL

idk how to beat squirtle at all, i kinda know what to do vs the other two?

DMG is also really good. plenty of good players in this thread lol, im not big on the whole meat ride ****, i think im a pretty good player but im not saint or something

i still see so many things to improve on in my gameplay- and thats even Before i get into my reads XD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He's toogood

id even say that id win because he plays PT, but idk wtf to do vs that character LOL

idk how to beat squirtle at all, i kinda know what to do vs the other two?

i still see so many things to improve on in my gameplay- and thats even Before i get into my reads XD

I hear that a lot, hah.

Just camp your heart out and tilt a bunch--You'll do fine.

I decided to main Wario again, though, and have won my last two tournaments as a result. Once I get back in shape with him, I'll probably feel a lot more confident about such a match.

As for the last bit, that's the sign of an excellent player, though--There's always something to improve on. The more you know about the game, the more you see that can be done to become better.

 

[Savon]

All of the people who mained lower tiered characters and did well with them are like "eff *insert lower tiered character* I wanna WIN."

 

[TheReflexWonder]

All of the people who mained lower tiered characters and did well with them are like "eff *insert lower tiered character* I wanna WIN."

I like winning. Also, there was a massive increase in Meta Knight usage in my area recently among people who have played me a million times, so...I figured I'd try to get serious with Wario again.

Besides, it's not like I quit PT completely.

 

[John12346]

Just some numbers I thought I'd throw out for fun

Knockback data collected with PSA

Spoiler

Note: In PSA, BKB and KBG are listed in hexadecimal, but I have converted them to plain 'ol decimal.

Meta-Knight

Glide Attack
Hits on frame 5
Base Knockback: 102
Knockback Growth: 30

Nair
Hits on frame 3
Base Knockback: 100
Knockback Growth: 30

Dsmash
Hits on frame 5
Base Knockback: 93
Knockback Growth: 50

Fsmash
Hits on frame 24
Base Knockback: 99
Knockback Growth: 28

Dair(sweetspot)
Hits on frame 4
Base Knockback: 105
Knockback Growth: 30

Grounded Shuttle Loop
Hits on frame 8
Base Knockback: 80
Knockback Growth: 90!!!

Aerial Shuttle Loop(sweetspot)
Hits on frame 8
Base Knockback: 80
Knockback Growth: 30

Ganondorf

Dash Attack(sweetspot)
Hits on frame 10
Base Knockback: 80
Knockback Growth: 60

SPARTA!!!(aka Ftilt)
Hits on frame 10
Base Knockback: 88
Knockback Growth: 30

Utilt
Hits on frame 81
Base Knockback: 80
Knockback Growth: 60

Fsmash(no angle)(sweetspot)
Hits on frame 21
Base Knockback: 83
Knockback Growth: 30

Usmash
Hits on frame 21
Base Knockback: 70
Knockback Growth: 40

Fair(sweetspot)
Hits on frame 14
Base Knockback: 83
Knockback Growth: 48

Poor Ganon, must be a real downer to find out a character with allegedly no kill moves is on par with the King of Evil.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Ganon is getting old now. Age taking effect. XD Or being sealed so dang much is slowing him down.

 

[da K.I.D.]

damage of a move also plays into how hard it hits, correct?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

damage of a move also plays into how hard it hits, correct?

At the very least, I believe that is a factor in how much shieldstun an attack causes.

 

[dean.]

damage of a move also plays into how hard it hits, correct?

I believe that's correct.
Coz like, MK's aerial Shuttle Loop and dsmash do about 10-12% whereas Ganon's dair and usmash do about 23%...

 

[da K.I.D.]

cus the kb numbers for both characters f smashes are very similar, yet i know mks kills at like 120 or so, while ganons kills at like 50 lol

 

[Pikabunz]

Damage of a move affects knockback, hitlag, and shieldstun.

 

[Tagxy]

hmm.

That's not fair, though. Being able to gimp incredibly easily is really helpful, especially with Shuttle Loop. N-Air is Airdodge/Spotdodge 2.0; there are plenty of good places to throw it in. F-Smash is nigh unpunishable; there's little reason NOT to do it.

Theres several characters that arent gimped when they recover correctly.

Well, everyone has those 26 frames to wait before doing an aerial, but few people have an aerial that's even close to the thirteen that Meta Knight's U-Air takes; the frames shaved by using U-Air do help a lot.

You didnt say it but since someone else did, MK definitely doesnt have the best momentum canceling in the game (I hate it when peeps exaggerate like this). His jumps are short, his ability to reverse momentum in the air is bad, and it honestly doesnt feel like it makes an obvious difference like with some characters. Its nice but it doesnt spare him that much.

Smart use of movement around platforms makes it pretty difficult to punish, regardless.

Its decently safe if it connects. But even if you get punished for a shielded tornado 1 out of 3 times, it really is not worth it. Getting grabbed or hit by a combo starter is not a worthwhile trade for what could end up being just a small percent. But I suppose it depends on the character too.

I maintain that Meta Knight's F-Tilt is probably his best move overall. You can cancel the first and second swing, or do the next swing at any time, so even if it's shielded, it turns into, "Will he continue the F-Tilt, or cancel into something else?" The opponent has to guess correctly at least twice before he has the opportunity to retaliate. This is further made awesome by his fast D-Tilt, which is also cancellable.

Completely agree (although shuttle loop might be his best move too). I dont know about guessing twice, but once it hits your shield you definitely need to guess their intention correctly or take damage.

No other character has an aerial that takes thirteen frames to do the entire animation, or an aerial that comes out on frame 2. This, combined with the often-greater threat of the multi-hit/huge damage N-Air, and the very-powerful gimping machines of Shuttle Loop and D-Air, creates a situation where the guessing game is lost and works better than most characters as far as that goes.

Gimping, yes. If characters only have a decent recovery and dont DI correctly MK has a good opportunity at a stock. But MKs poor aerial mobility makes it difficult to set up kills with aerials.

Because of the floatiness of Brawl, multiple jumps, crazy range, and Meta Knight's Mach Tornado, trying to retaliate is usually a bad idea. That's why D-Airs at certain angles are so effective at bringing the match to a standstill.

Difficult but not impossible or unlikely. Projectiles on the other hand are safe.

Fair enough, but, what matchups would the opponent be gaining more out of Meta Knight having transcendent priority on his sword attacks than Meta Knight himself?

I often say that Snake U-Tilt is the best projectile in the game. The trancendent priority makes me want to single out Meta Knight's attacks over other disjointed hitboxes. Also, Mach Tornado is ridiculously good at being a projectile.

I can speak from experience as pikachu. If I see MK start to fsmash, spam empty sh aerials, or come at me in the air I jolt. If it were marth he could swipe away the jolt and then hit me, instead he has to find a way to deal with the jolt. I prefer him to have it for this matchup.

 

[John12346]

Crud, I forgot about damage factoring into actual knockback.

Guess PSA isn't gonna help. >.<;