Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Yukiwarashi]

Someone posted a question on my wall, and I figured my response was interesting, so I might as well post it here.

The question:


My response:

*wonders why this was completely ignored*

Some characters on this list concern me. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on why some of those characters are even? I always thought characters like Kirby, Pikachu and Olimar had tons of trouble against Metaknight. o_o

 

[Dynamism?]

*wonders why this was completely ignored*

Some characters on this list concern me. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on why some of those characters are even? I always thought characters like Kirby, Pikachu and Olimar had tons of trouble against Metaknight. o_o

Kirby and Pika can stand their ground. Olimar has to play a different game against MK (and a few others) to do well unlike his usually self. I don't think Oli would be a good fit to "beat" an MK but he can still come close for the most part.

I'd throw Wolf on that list too. The dsmash and reflector can match MKs best.

 

[Mmac]

*wonders why this was completely ignored*

Some characters on this list concern me. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on why some of those characters are even? I always thought characters like Kirby, Pikachu and Olimar had tons of trouble against Metaknight. o_o

Kirby I know does pretty well. Pikachu I think so too. Olimar..... not so much

And he forgot Yoshi ;_ ;

He's probably the only one who has a true advantage over him now.

Thank god for Grab Release to Fair Spike

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, Metaknight is an oddity for sure. At first I thought both him and Snake would go down from being "OMG crazy good" to being "Good, but definitely beatable." Snake has gone down for sure, and people are finally starting to see what I meant when I said that he wasn't that good at all. But Metaknight... has gotten better. He's broken for sure but not broken enough to ban. He doesn't have any bad matchups right now, and his worst matchups are even.

A few characters that, IMO, can go even with MK at high levels of play: MK, Snake, Diddy, DK, Bowser, Marth, G&W, Pikachu, Kirby, Falco, Wario, Lucario, Fox (?), Zelda (??), and Olimar (???).

More may pop up down the line, and I'm sure I missed a couple. But keep in mind that the list may seem large right now, but thats only if the people using those characters are extremely knowledgeable in the matchup against MK. Otherwise, they're screwed.

Ok... MK is obvious, Snake no, Diddy possibly, DK no, Bowser I highly doubt it, Marth no (I'm absolutely positive on this one, you can ask EL to explain if you don't believe me, but the longer dtilt is critical), Zelda I also highly doubt. Can't really comment on the others without studying the match-up


Realistically however, in Mk's case I'd say it's more of an issue of how many characters he basically eliminates from tournament viability then how many characters can beat him.

 

[Mmac]

DK no, Bowser I highly doubt it,

DK's Priority, Speed, and Range does very well against him.

Bowser is just like Yoshi in the sense that he can Chaingrab him, and has a Dtilt on release that can kill at reasonably low %'s. Also his Airgame and Ground game is pretty solid

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't know how to do that multiquote single quote thing so sorry if this is confusing lol

Just CTRL+C the first part in your case

then end it with the tag/

1. Yes that applies to every character. That's the point, it's a balanced scale taking only the peak of that character. A very common example is Chu and the ICs. There was 1 of him, 1 ICs, he reached the peak with them to match the many MANY other players for the many other characters. Just because there is only 1 ICs doesn't mean the ICs aren't good. People recognized this and that's why the ICs were known to be good, even after 1 ICs, 1 player, reached that potential. And through Brawl, at this very moment, there is at least 1 good player with each individual character that have come closest to this "peak" with the given character. 20 Falcon, 1 ICs, Falcon isn't 20 times better than the ICs. Follow 1 player with each character. This is the only way to determine this tier just as it was the past tiers, facts* :D

Chudat did indeed prove that the IC's were better than originally thought. however despite what he did they never went beyond mid tier despite how amazing he did. Simply because other IC mainers simply did not have the same results. The results did improve but there weren't many replicating Chudat's results.

2.Sonic is hit and run.

No and frankly you shouldn't compare him to melee falcon since they both work entirely different.

For one Sonic can't just hit and run like Falcon did n melee due to the limits of dash dancing.

not only that he is a baiting type not a hit then run type. He baits, then punishes then chases. There is not much hit and run because not only is shieldstun lesser making the hit part more vulnerable.

You CAN do some hit and run tactics, but otherwise they won't work very effectively.

Falcon was hit and run in melee yet he still needed to follow and had to pressure and chase. Starting over happens a LOT. It's the neutral state in the game and you must get an advantage from there. That's where the need to approach comes into play. It's the nature of the game.

You don't listen very well do you?
Starting over is a natural part of the game yes, but the issue is that you want to maintain that advantage as long s you can.W ,hen you face marth and Snake, the speed of their attacks as well as the priority makes this an issue.

Not only is returning to a neutral state bad when they get away from a disadvantage, but it's good when you get away from a disadvantage. Being at a distance is also one of Sonics more advantageous points because of his speed game in approaching.

Once you lose that advantage and return to that neutral slate it means thats depending on what character your opponent is using, you will either have an easier time gaining that advantage or being at a disadvantage.

The whole point of the argument is to maintain the advantage you gain.
This goes for your opponent as well, if they already have a natural disadvantage they should be striving to maintain that moment of advantage.

If you are playing Marth and have the advantage, don't start over. If you're going to get punished, move away. Hit and run doesn't mean waiting for long periods. The hit and run involves the chase and the moment between the hit, the run to avoid the counter attack or not miss a dodging opponent then hitting again is only a split second. Sonic is hit and run, he speed is his greatest asset and used accordingly that is what his speed is for.

Yes Sonic 's speed is his greatest asset. however that speed is best taken advantage of when you are chasing the opponent after you have attacked them or popped them into the air. Not running.

Yeah can jab spot dodge jab spotdodge jab run away but that gets sonic nowhere.
You can use spincharge ~homing attack then back away but again that drags the match along and Sonic is not the type of character who can wait out his opponent.
You can use hit and run on the slower characters but even the slower characters have methods of dealing with hit and run behavior.

Sonic baits and punishes. He doesn't conduct hit and run int he manner you are thinking.
He limits.

if I ASC a DDD he does't have many options.
If he dodges in the direction I am moving he will get hit if I continue the ASC.
if he shields he gets his shield eaten and I can footstool him in case he goes for a shield grab.
If he spot dodges he will get hit.
if he dodges opposite of where I am moving I can continue moving and avoid getting punished or cancel, turn around and dash attack him and maintain pressure.


As I mentioned he can use hit and run tactics, but that generally doesn't work too well for him because while he does look like he is moving very quickly, he isn't getting to his goal quickly enough.

With low shield stun the opponent has a much shorter amount of time to attack or move away and ease the pressure.
With the contraints on dash movement you can't just rush in as quickly either.
Sonic travels a long distance with his dash animation and he slides a noticable distance when he stops.

To get through Marths "wall" and Marth to catch you in the small distance that is his "wall" is both the reason Sonic uses the hit and run inside then outside the wall to avoid is swipes for the advantage and the same reason Marth tries to stop Sonic in the wall to get his own advantage. In and out, hit and run, back and forth with advantage and disadvantage. And ultimately Sonic can hold the say in when you get the "advantage" because his speed to get from a distance to inside is the tool that will beat the Marth.

You must be joking. Why would I repeatedly place myself in his wall and not take advantage?
Why not grab him and go into a Dthrow then CHASE him with a spincharge or CHASE him for a D throw and continue CHASING him.

running in then running out accomplishes nothing because for oen, while Sonic's dash speed is great he doesn't have the same agility that Captain Falcon did in melee due to dashing restraints.

Not only that it does nothing in anyway to limit Marths options at all. He can use all his safe moves and by the time you turn around to hit him he can easily just jab at you again and keep you away.

That hit and run tactic isnt going to accomplish what needs to be accomplished in the time you need it.

3.C4, motor slide etc will not stop Luigi. A neutral B will stop him from sliding, he can do so out of range from his tilts and it might not be versitile but Snake isn't one that's going to jump over. Luigis attacks (almost all of them) come out so quick that if Snake tries Snake dashing he'll get down smashed into the air (if there is no fireball) and nearly everything has knocks into the air which is exactly where Snake is bad and Luigi thrives. The only thing that keeps Snake in this match up at all is his tilts. Really, Luigi can nearly camp Snake. :O

Why would Snake DAC TOWARDS Luigi?
mortar slide has crap priority he isn;t going to use it as a means of attacking the opponent. The offensive options for it are bad.

Luigi will be forced to approach because snake can easily use a Nikita and there goes your fireball.
Luigi cannot camp Snake. Luigi cannot approach Snake.
yes once you get Snake into the air you will have a large advantage, but the difficulty is actually getting close to put him into the air.

Trading hits with Snake is never good so an aerial approach isn't best and Down B will trade with a tilt if the Snake is ready. A simple fireball will make Snake shield or at least screw Snakes chances of evading it every time (unless Snakes missles through it which would in turn give Luigi significant time to aerial approach even at his speed or Snake can roll/jump away which will set up an easy move for Luigi to get Snake in the air anyways).

Or he can use a nikita or he can use his grenades to cover himself up clsoe. or he can cook grenades then toss them at you.

Luigi has slow movement speed so by the time you get in range for your fireball Snake already has everything set to counter the fireball and ensure that he is not harmed.

If Snake gets below Luigi, utilt destroys him but an SideB will give Luigi plenty of room to land.

yes lets ignore the long start up and the long cooldown time.

Even a timed dair or nair will actually trade with utilt and that can pull Snake into the air in itself.

considering how far you'll go up and how fast Snake can fall that is unlikely.

And DownB upon landing works wonders to get to and away from Snake.

until you his a claymore, C4, grenades, nikita, or trae with a tilt as you mentioned earlier (which contradicts you).

Luigi can take Snake into the air easily enough

how he cannot even approach Snake that well.

and once Snake is in the air it's a ton of damage or a stock.

Or Snake can drop grenades and C4 or nikita to cover himself from below.
Considering Luigi's low aerial speed he isn't going to be capable of taking off a stock. Yeah you will do damage but after a certain percentage you don't have much of a mehod to rack up damage.

let alone the fact its difficult getting him into the air.

Luigi is also one of the few that can kill Snake regularly at very low % and has everything in his moveset to set the various finishers up.

no I wont provide that lol

Frankly because of how improbable it is?
Ike can kill everyone at low percents but do you know how low the chances are off killing someone at 70%

4.

Dedede is considered THE only true Pikachu counter. Pika does not have the advantage there, that's possibly the only significantly difficult match up for him. Bair, utilt and grabs... >_>
How do Snake, G&W and MK out do him by a significant amount? Whatever, that's not even a statement or anything that has anything to do with something being in their favorlol

Snake beats out Pikachu in terms of ground work.
Mk beats him in terms of... everything else 9except Pikachu has a projectile).
G&W outdoes him aerially, priority.


All three beat him out in terms of matchups and TOURNAMENT RESULTS.

Pikachu has matchups that go hand in hand with MK and G&W as the best overall match ups in the game.
Dedede is close but against him, then even with about a half a dozen that include characters like Zelda and G&W, them advantages over everone from big guys to spacies.

meanwhile MK, G&W and Snake do better than Pikachu in the number of advantage and neutrals (which they have shown) and have less disadvantages and no hard counters. (except maybe Snake)

You say "just as well tournement wise" like it's the only thing that matters. Do you not see the flaw in this? I don't think I need to explain but I'll just give the little speal that has debunked the whole concept a thousand times already.

you would be best in explaining because it sounds highly unliely for you to debunk the whole tournament rankings.

shall i pull up the numbers again?
Here let me say it for you.

THERE IS TOO MUCH OF A GAP BETWEEN THOSE CHARACTERS FOR PIKACHU TO BE CONSIDERED TOP TIER.

Got it? Good.

There are many very good MKs and very good Snakes. Each win 1 major tourney and continue to do so. Then there are the other Snakes and MKs you say are "not very good" and those surely place somewhere in the upper part of tourneys occasionally. Then all of the sudden some good players with other characters begin to emerge, only a few with each. They start behind and fall further behind because there are so many of those big 2.

This means that pikachu and Tl just do not do well against those characters at high levels of play or other characters besides MK and Snake (since face it, the tournaments aren't so clogged with KM and Snake's that they are the only characters you soo)

So if all of those Snakes are in tourneys, shouldn't Snake be highly ranked in that tourney list thingy you keep referring to? It wouldn't make sense for 1 Ness to get more points than 30 Snakes. I makes sense this way but doesn't even create accurate data...unless you devide the nuber of players by the number of the other. Even better would be to take the Ness players that placed on that chart to get points and take that same number of players from the best of the Snakes on the and devide that by the number of tourneys that were ranked on the list that each went to.

The tournament data goes on the following.

The number of entrants.
The cost.
Each placement gets a certain number of points.


Look at Fox and Sonic. Fox has won more tournaments and placed better than sonic more often.
ye he is below Sonic why?

Since sonic places high in LARGE tournaments.
So the points he gains is greater because it means he has to get past a larger amount of people.

The fact you d not know ths means you have either never gone and looked at wht the rankings is composed of, or frankly ignore it.

Get it yet? I kind of doubt it, nvm if you don't. No biggy. :\

Don't know your arguments are starting to bore me.

A person by person basis means nothing? So you take the top 20 Fox and the top 20 ICs and it means something but the top 5 ICs (the ones that have come even close to his peak) and the top 5 Fox (if you can narrow it down that much) then it means nothing?
The only accurate way is the peak players. This is fact, a tier list is the best of the character not the average of the masses using said character.

If you have 1000 Fox users.
10 of them get 1st place wins consistently.
The other 990 get 2nd place wins consistently.

Where do you think Fox will go? Second or first place?

If 100 people beat MK With Yoshi 100% of the time.
And 1000 people beat MK with Yoshi only 10% of the time which do you think will create a greater influence?

you don't just hand select the best of each character, since this does not reflect the may playstyles of the character and doesn't go through on how good the character is, it only falls on how good the player is.

you never look at the few you always look at the whole of things to get an accurate picture.

Pikachu in 13th place actually means something to you? Hopefully that was just a little thing you threw in for fun. That means about as much as "Snakes bair has landing lag" in terms of making the character worse than they are.

it means a lot considering this is how well he is doing NATIONWIDE.
Its means much, much more than Snake having land lag.

That means actual capability rather than theory capability.

His match ups overall are actually possibly the best in the game including more one sided match ups in his favor than anyone else and very few against him.

I am calling you on this, proof now.

His gameplay has been developed only by few and he has great room to grow being so underused by great players.
Just because there are few does not mean the character is worse, even if tourney rankings are bad. Even if there are only a few good Pikachus and you say it's the player winning, couldn't you say the same about Snake? Yes.

No.
you have a greater variety of Snake mainers winning than you do pikachu mainers.

So if Pikachu had exactly the same number of wins as Snake (including high placement in tournaments) but less people maining him who do you think will be higher in the tier list?
Snake. It shows much more character ability than player ability.

And some Snakes aren't very good but in the masses of them they still do alright, couldn't you say the same about the not so good Pikas? Yes.

no. Cuase those not so good snakes are still doing better than the not so good pikachu's.

So a good Pika will get first everywhere they go and a good Snake will get first everywhere they go. Why is Pikachu considered barely high tier when this is the case.

Except it isn't. Now you are just blatantly lying.

If pikachu was as good as you say then every single tournament where Pikachu appears (a good number) why is he not placing as well?
if he was top tier material why does he not pop up along with the Snake and Mk's more often than he does now? Why are there other characters above him?

Is it simply because more Snakes exist so the tourney ranking results change the game so Snake is better?

no because Snake isn't the only character being used.

There is Mk G&W, DDD, Lucario etc etc.
Snake and Mk don't warp the tournament scene so badly.
The rest of your post is just fluff frankly and its to late for me to entertain it.

in anycase your arguments are flawed and starting to border on being ignorant (seriously comparing Snake's Bair to pikachu's placement? sk tsk)

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Ok... MK is obvious, Snake no, Diddy possibly, DK no, Bowser I highly doubt it, Marth no (I'm absolutely positive on this one, you can ask EL to explain if you don't believe me, but the longer dtilt is critical), Zelda I also highly doubt. Can't really comment on the others without studying the match-up

ROFL. You don't think Snake does well against MK? Alright.

And a few notes:

- NinjaLink's Diddy 2-0'ed M2K's MK. M2K then said that Diddy has the advantage in the matchup for now, but with more experience it'll probably straight even. Diddy is the only character that could possibly be said to have an advantage over MK.
- Snake vs MK is very difficult for Snake in higher levels of play, but its definitely possible, and without a doubt is somewhere near an even matchup (note that I said near).
- DK can KO MK at 80% with the downsmash. This matchup is all about spacing and using attacks with little lag after them until you can catch MK with his pants down for a free KO.
- I saw Sliq's Bowser beat DSF's MK on Rainbow Cruise. There is even a video of it. 'Nugh said.
- Marth isn't even, but only a slight disadvantage when compared to other characters. He definitely has the potential to put MK on the ropes.
- The reason that Fox/Zelda/Olimar had ??? after them was because I'm personally not too sure about them. I've never seen a high-level player that uses one of those three, and I've never seen these characters vs good MKs, so those 3 are pure conjecture on my part.

 

[Dynamism?]

wow, I'm almost cringing at your lack of intelligence. no offense, reading this was just, odd. For the most part it was just, I don't even know. I suppose I'll comment though. But seriously ew man, you don't know what you're talking about.

Just CTRL+C the first part in your case

Thanks here though. I thought there was an easier way but if this is the only way (which I actually used to do but found it annoying) than so be it. :D

Chudat did indeed prove that the IC's were better than originally thought. however despite what he did they never went beyond mid tier despite how amazing he did. Simply because other IC mainers simply did not have the same results. The results did improve but there weren't many replicating Chudat's results.

That's the point, one player reaches the peak, the character reaches the peak. It goes hand in hand. It doesn't matter if ICs went to top of high or top of bottom, they were placed according to their peak game, which was ONLY MANAGED by 1 player. (foresighttopikacough)

No and frankly you shouldn't compare him to melee falcon since they both work entirely different.

For one Sonic can't just hit and run like Falcon did n melee due to the limits of dash dancing.

not only that he is a baiting type not a hit then run type. He baits, then punishes then chases. There is not much hit and run because not only is shieldstun lesser making the hit part more vulnerable.

You CAN do some hit and run tactics, but otherwise they won't work very effectively.

You don't listen very well do you?
Starting over is a natural part of the game yes, but the issue is that you want to maintain that advantage as long s you can.W ,hen you face marth and Snake, the speed of their attacks as well as the priority makes this an issue.

well of course they do, it's an entirely different game to begin with. lol
Sonic is hit and run. This isn't an opinion, that's just what he does. And dash dancing has nothing to do with it, don't know where you got that idea from. Maybe the bait thing? Irrelevant.
With both shieldstun and hitstun very small, this encourages hit and run.
I'll use Falcon as an example again lol.
Falcon grabs an opponent and chases, comboing them with out escape and constantly persues and follows maintaining that advantage as long as he can (usually finishing in a knee lol) yet he is STILL and hit and run character. It's the nature of a fast character with no projectiles. It's not a choice or anything, that's just what it is. There is no other way because they are fast and have to projectiles. It's not complicated >_>
And right back at you listener...

Once you lose that advantage and return to that neutral slate it means thats depending on what character your opponent is using, you will either have an easier time gaining that advantage or being at a disadvantage.

The whole point of the argument is to maintain the advantage you gain.
This goes for your opponent as well, if they already have a natural disadvantage they should be striving to maintain that moment of advantage.

Yes Sonic 's speed is his greatest asset. however that speed is best taken advantage of when you are chasing the opponent after you have attacked them or popped them into the air. Not running.

Agreed! This essentially what I said but to elaborate...
both running AND chasing AND more. To get in close for that grab (you later mention) his speed is best used there as well, is it not? And is that not what Falcon uses? lol just thought I'd throw that in there.

Yeah can jab spot dodge jab spotdodge jab run away but that gets sonic nowhere.
You can use spincharge ~homing attack then back away but again that drags the match along and Sonic is not the type of character who can wait out his opponent.
You can use hit and run on the slower characters but even the slower characters have methods of dealing with hit and run behavior.

Sonic baits and punishes. He doesn't conduct hit and run int he manner you are thinking.
He limits.

if I ASC a DDD he does't have many options.
If he dodges in the direction I am moving he will get hit if I continue the ASC.
if he shields he gets his shield eaten and I can footstool him in case he goes for a shield grab.
If he spot dodges he will get hit.
if he dodges opposite of where I am moving I can continue moving and avoid getting punished or cancel, turn around and dash attack him and maintain pressure.

Those first examples are horrible tactics for Sonic, glad you don't do that because that's just bad lol.
He can however, out wait his opponent. He can sit on the other side of the stage and wait because he's so fast he can hit even from there once the orportunity comes up. He can even bait from there.
The highlighted part is called hit and run btw. I didn't really follow the other examples on that DDD list I admit though. :\

As I mentioned he can use hit and run tactics, but that generally doesn't work too well for him because while he does look like he is moving very quickly, he isn't getting to his goal quickly enough.

With low shield stun the opponent has a much shorter amount of time to attack or move away and ease the pressure.
With the contraints on dash movement you can't just rush in as quickly either.
Sonic travels a long distance with his dash animation and he slides a noticable distance when he stops.


You must be joking. Why would I repeatedly place myself in his wall and not take advantage?
Why not grab him and go into a Dthrow then CHASE him with a spincharge or CHASE him for a D throw and continue CHASING him.

running in then running out accomplishes nothing because for oen, while Sonic's dash speed is great he doesn't have the same agility that Captain Falcon did in melee due to dashing restraints.

Not only that it does nothing in anyway to limit Marths options at all. He can use all his safe moves and by the time you turn around to hit him he can easily just jab at you again and keep you away.
That hit and run tactic isnt going to accomplish what needs to be accomplished in the time you need it.

Some of that at the beginning was just random things that didn't provide anything worth of input to the discussion but most is true.

You must be joking lol. You have to take advantage of getting to Marth, that's the point of getting inside. I know you know this, I think you may have interpreted something poorly. When you chase an attack, ANY attack, you wait for the reaction THEN chase or if it's shielded you don't keep attacking. As you said, shieldstun is too low. Instead you stay away, then attack again.

And when you're back out, you wouldn't rush in again because he would fair or whatever, THEN you hit again in the moment you get. That's called hit and run.

The highlighted part is a perfect example of hit and run and what I explained about why to do so. I think you're agreeing but don't see it and are just trying to argue. ;P

He might not have dash dancing, but his speed is what makes his approach, chasing, punishing after baiting, getting away from danger, getting them into it and everything else possible for him.

Why would Snake DAC TOWARDS Luigi?
mortar slide has crap priority he isn;t going to use it as a means of attacking the opponent. The offensive options for it are bad.

Luigi will be forced to approach because snake can easily use a Nikita and there goes your fireball.
Luigi cannot camp Snake. Luigi cannot approach Snake.
yes once you get Snake into the air you will have a large advantage, but the difficulty is actually getting close to put him into the air.

Or he can use a nikita or he can use his grenades to cover himself up clsoe. or he can cook grenades then toss them at you.

Luigi has slow movement speed so by the time you get in range for your fireball Snake already has everything set to counter the fireball and ensure that he is not harmed.

yes lets ignore the long start up and the long cooldown time.

considering how far you'll go up and how fast Snake can fall that is unlikely.


until you his a claymore, C4, grenades, nikita, or trae with a tilt as you mentioned earlier (which contradicts you).

how he cannot even approach Snake that well.

Or Snake can drop grenades and C4 or nikita to cover himself from below.
Considering Luigi's low aerial speed he isn't going to be capable of taking off a stock. Yeah you will do damage but after a certain percentage you don't have much of a mehod to rack up damage.

let alone the fact its difficult getting him into the air.

Frankly because of how improbable it is?
Ike can kill everyone at low percents but do you know how low the chances are off killing someone at 70%

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've never seen a match between these to characters on pretty much any level :\
Have you ever witnessed a game with Luigi vs Snake? I'm curious lol

Ever see a Fox vs Snake vid? Similarly to his usmash killing him at lower % then Snake dies against nearly everyone else, Luigi has that ability with every smash and UpB.
That's just it, Luigis chances of killing people at 70% are as high as DKs, possibly higher. Fox isn't quite that high but still it's very possible. Much easier for Luigi than almost anyone to do so and everything he has sets it up on Snake from a jab to reading an air dodge.

Nade dropping is Snakes best move against DK. Much like it is against Luigi. It's his savior in tough times and against DK and Luigi he calls upon more than any other match up. C4 and Claymore will never hit. Ever.

Everything Luigi has sends him into the air. Like everything. He isn't difficult to approach. He doesn't move anywhere, nades and nikita when use to shoot Luigi will only give Luigi a path to Snake. His tilts cover that area around him but that only goes so far.

Getting Snake into the air is not a problem. Keeping Snake in the air is not a problem. Getting down from the air before Snake is where the tricky part comes into play because when Snake hits the ground he can motor slide or tilt instantly which could keep Luigi in the air. Once in the air, that's where each of them are in trouble. Snake needs to be on the ground with Luigi in the air and Luigi needs to be in the air with Snake. Everything Luigi does sends Snake into the air as Snake tries to get to the ground and on the ground Luigi has to be grounded. Then it's square 1. Which is conviniently EVEN between them.

Snake beats out Pikachu in terms of ground work.
Mk beats him in terms of... everything else 9except Pikachu has a projectile).
G&W outdoes him aerially, priority.

So you're also saying Pika beats Snake in terms of air work and speed.
Pika beats MK out in, almost nothing.
Pika beats G&W in speed.

*ageed

All three beat him out in terms of matchups and TOURNAMENT RESULTS.

meanwhile MK, G&W and Snake do better than Pikachu in the number of advantage and neutrals (which they have shown) and have less disadvantages and no hard counters. (except maybe Snake)

you would be best in explaining because it sounds highly unliely for you to debunk the whole tournament rankings.

shall i pull up the numbers again?
Here let me say it for you.

THERE IS TOO MUCH OF A GAP BETWEEN THOSE CHARACTERS FOR PIKACHU TO BE CONSIDERED TOP TIER.

Got it? Good.

false on the match ups, tourney results again, borderline irrelevant until overhauled.

false, in fact all FOUR of them have those qualities

I did not debunk it. About 100 other people did before me. I saw it and thought it was neat. It's just not something that you should consider basing a list of characters from best to worst with that as a major source for the list. :\

This means that pikachu and Tl just do not do well against those characters at high levels of play or other characters besides MK and Snake (since face it, the tournaments aren't so clogged with KM and Snake's that they are the only characters you soo)

The tournament data goes on the following.

The number of entrants.
The cost.
Each placement gets a certain number of points.


Look at Fox and Sonic. Fox has won more tournaments and placed better than sonic more often.
ye he is below Sonic why?

Since sonic places high in LARGE tournaments.
So the points he gains is greater because it means he has to get past a larger amount of people.

This is another flaw. How could this possibly be accurate in your mind if the higher placing character is ranked lower? This is opposite to the Pika vs Snake thing. You support both extremes of it. Do you just follow it and not know why simply because it says that it's tourney results? Incredible.

The fact you d not know ths means you have either never gone and looked at wht the rankings is composed of, or frankly ignore it.

I've seen it, not recently though. It really shouldn't be a large base for your perceptions though. It's just not accurate, and that's not an opinion lol. Seriously, put it into context with the way things actually work, it just doesn't work. It's an EXPERIMENT!
Have you even seen it?

Don't know your arguments are starting to bore me.

yours scared me because the last few chunks were so bad and difficult to comprehend because of invalidity and irrelevance. But there were some good things. I'll continue if you do ;P

If you have 1000 Fox users.
10 of them get 1st place wins consistently.
The other 990 get 2nd place wins consistently.

Where do you think Fox will go? Second or first place?

If 100 people beat MK With Yoshi 100% of the time.
And 1000 people beat MK with Yoshi only 10% of the time which do you think will create a greater influence?

you don't just hand select the best of each character, since this does not reflect the may playstyles of the character and doesn't go through on how good the character is, it only falls on how good the player is.
you never look at the few you always look at the whole of things to get an accurate picture.

say one thing then say the opposite much? You're contradicting yourself entirely here.
Example, Chu vs 10 Marios. lol Player? Or 10 Marios means Mario is better and Chu is just a better player?
You need to think outside that box to see the full picture. Tourney results from the various that have been recorded on a point system consisting of unever amounts of character with uneven amounts of entrants from uneven amounts of tourneys with uneven amounts of players playing them...to what can *name* do at the highest level and what does that highest level consist of. Find that highest level, see why it's the highest level and compare the highest level. Brawl isn't at the point where everyone is at the highest level. That's why just a few at the best of a characters ability is more accurate then all that have passed from release.

it means a lot considering this is how well he is doing NATIONWIDE.
Its means much, much more than Snake having land lag.

That means actual capability rather than theory capability.

I am calling you on this, proof now.

No.
you have a greater variety of Snake mainers winning than you do pikachu mainers.

So if Pikachu had exactly the same number of wins as Snake (including high placement in tournaments) but less people maining him who do you think will be higher in the tier list?
Snake. It shows much more character ability than player ability.

You're pretty set on that list so I'm not even going to say anything about it anymore lol

I can do that.
Pika < (barely if at all but probable) Dedede, G&W, MK
Pika <(possible) Marth, Lucario, Zelda
Pika = DK, Diddy, Lucas, various others, not many
Pika > Pretty much all the rest
Close enough?

That last part is exactly why it's inaccurate, expecially when you take it that way. How did you miss this? OMG! lol

You're saying that if lesser amounts of Pikas had the same amount of wins as the larger amount of Snakes than the list would be player based. Therefore, the way there are a large amount of Snakes with more wins than the lesser amount of Pikas. You proved it's inaccurate right there! Look at it again! Seriously, it's really quite simple lol

no. Cuase those not so good snakes are still doing better than the not so good pikachu's.

Except it isn't. Now you are just blatantly lying.

What are you thinking? The best Snake out there gets first everywhere just the like best Pika out there does. And no, there are just fewer Pikas overall, why would there be results recorded or the rankings if there wasn't? There's just fewer of them, surely you know that there aren't as many Pikas as there are MKs, Snakes etc. Right?

If pikachu was as good as you say then every single tournament where Pikachu appears (a good number) why is he not placing as well?
if he was top tier material why does he not pop up along with the Snake and Mk's more often than he does now? Why are there other characters above him?

A few factors could come into play here, like Pika being one of the more difficult characters to use at a top level or simply there are so very few of them compared to the MKs and Snakes.

no because Snake isn't the only character being used.

There is Mk G&W, DDD, Lucario etc etc.
Snake and Mk don't warp the tournament scene so badly.
The rest of your post is just fluff frankly and its to late for me to entertain it.

in anycase your arguments are flawed and starting to border on being ignorant (seriously comparing Snake's Bair to pikachu's placement? sk tsk)

lol that was a retorical joke question and the answer was lame.

Nothing has been flawed in this information and you so far have been fairly uninformed about this game on a few levels.

First, watch some Luigi vs Snake vids or play the match up yourself. There is a reason this is a known situation among top level Luigi and Snake mains alike that have played the match up before.

Second, find a good Pika and a good Snake and watch them/study them. The best of each preferably. Surely you'll see some vids around or something. Maybe not the 2 facing each other because the match up is in Pikas favor but watch them against a common foe. Anther and Ally are similar skill level, you've probably seen them on the AiB ladder, and notice that the Pika always beats the Snake when they play.

Thirdly, Sonic is a hit and run character. This is fact, not really arguable. This is not something that was chosen by an individual or anything like that, it's just reality, that's what characters in video games without projectiles and with speed are.

Fourth, drop all of your twisted perceptions about the roster as a whole from tourney charts etc. Nothing is more inaccurate, not even the bad lists that pop up in this very thread. Maybe ask Ankoku what he thinks about his own chart. Have you seen his tier list? The 2 aren't even CLOSE.

Fith, I'm tired too, it's passed 3 am here and now I'm going to read for a while. Longer night then I expected but try to open yourself up to things tomorrow, hopefully some of this wont seem so boring/flawed in the morning. good night ;D

 

[Dynamism?]

- I saw Sliq's Bowser beat DSF's MK on Rainbow Cruise. There is even a video of it. 'Nugh said.

Sweet.
Somehow, Bowser is the only character I can beat Clouderz with. My Wolf comes close to his MK but not quite. The reflector and dsmash come into play way more against MK then other match ups and his gimped recovery actually doesn't play a huge disadvantage. It's fast and versatile enough and MK would gimp even if it was a great recovery. Wolf does well :D

 

[Talvi]

- I saw Sliq's Bowser beat DSF's MK on Rainbow Cruise. There is even a video of it. 'Nugh said.

Wasn't it in a doubles match? (even though Sliq had like 100+% and MK almost nothing)

 

[DanGR]

- The reason that Fox/Zelda/Olimar had ??? after them was because I'm personally not too sure about them. I've never seen a high-level player that uses one of those three, and I've never seen these characters vs good MKs, so those 3 are pure conjecture on my part.

I'll clear up Olimar.

An Olimar can compete with MK, but it's still a disadvantage for Olimar. The Olimar boards have discussed this matchup so many times. So many people coming in complaining about how broken he is. We have solid strategies that work against most MKs, but don't work at the much higher levels of play. So yeah...nothing really.

Also, I think it was M2K or Cort or someone that came in and asked for help against Olimar. Made me smile.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ROFL. You don't think Snake does well against MK? Alright.

I said "not even". It's 60/40. Mk's advantage.

Which seems to be the community consensus right now.

And a few notes:

- NinjaLink's Diddy 2-0'ed M2K's MK. M2K then said that Diddy has the advantage in the matchup for now, but with more experience it'll probably straight even. Diddy is the only character that could possibly be said to have an advantage over MK.

True, the Bananas are really crucial here though, if MK gains control of them, the advantage switches.

- Snake vs MK is very difficult for Snake in higher levels of play, but its definitely possible, and without a doubt is somewhere near an even matchup (note that I said near).

Pretty much my position on this, MK has a definite advantage, but it's close (mainly because he kills MK early), but Mk has way too many advantages in this match-up to call it even.

- DK can KO MK at 80% with the downsmash. This matchup is all about spacing and using attacks with little lag after them until you can catch MK with his pants down for a free KO.

Mk needs to try to play this like he would if he was Marth, yes it's pretty much about spacing, but MK has better pressure and is more able to get and maintain the spacing.

Mk's advantage, 60/40.

- I saw Sliq's Bowser beat DSF's MK on Rainbow Cruise. There is even a video of it. 'Nugh said.

One person vs. one person does not make an advantageous or neutral match-up, nuff said.

Still, worth considering.

- Marth isn't even, but only a slight disadvantage when compared to other characters. He definitely has the potential to put MK on the ropes.

True, 60/40, none of these are **** match-ups.

 

[cutter]

lol, no. Pit doesn't come close to matching Luigi in the air.

Disjointed attacks > non-disjointed attacks

Luigi gets murdered in the air by characters like MK and G&W because he has no answers to disjointed hitboxes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Can't be bothered waiting rather.

 

[Dynamism?]

Not really. Again chudat wasn't the only IC player and while he was certainly the best one that didn't mean they changed the IC"s position solely because of chudat. It was why the IC's remained in middle tier and did not advance to high tier. Even though chudat's victories were amazing and deserving of merit, it didn't change the vulnerabilities that the IC's had. Yeah he used the IC's at their peak, but because he stuck out so much it could very well have been that was an amazing melee player.

He was amazing, but as you said there were more ICs. Therefore your following statement about how hand picking a few makes it player based is totally contracting this. Don't worry, I deleted it for you.

Yeah it takes a really good player to bring out the best of a character, but how would you be capable of saying that the IC was being used at their peak? Or that it wasn't due to the opponents lack of experience against really good IC users?

That's a really insignificant factor in deciding this, not surprised you mentioned it though. After so many large tourneys etc, more of the people that had a say were familiar with the match up enough to understand what the ICs could do. That's why he went up after all.

You must be kidding.
Because shieldstun is so small (not including powershielding) your opponent has a greater wiu
Window for counter attacking. Look at the video above.

this supports hit and run lol

Melee falcon=/=Brawl Sonic at all.
Cease using him as an example thank you.

Of course they're not equal, but they are the same concept. Just like Jiggs and Ike are. Would I have to go into that too or do you understand why that is?
lol maybe I will, maybe I wont

*facepalm* You must be joking.
ASC is one of Sonic's more versatile approaches. It is very useful against characters like DDD who play defensively because of how it limits his options and because of how you can either go into a dedicated approach or non dedicated.
The fact that you just said it was bad shows your lack of knowledge concerning Sonic and his gameplay.

I never even commented on ASC, my bad for not making what I was quoting on clearer. :\

Again why would I back out? If I am already within his defenses attacking him why would I run out if I know he cannot do anything?

That's just it, if you hit him but ONCE, you wouldn't be inside so you have to get back in without getting hit by the fair. It's a simple situation lol

Sonic does not hit and run, none of his moves are so quick that he can just rush back in and attack after running from his opponent.
Dash dancing means he can't immediately rush back in after running away either ala Captain Falcon in melee.

The whole point is that Sonic is NOT a hit and run character.
You keep picking out 1 example out of the other 5 I provide but that makes little sense.
If Sonic was hit and run he would do just that, hit and run. Considering that only a handful of his approaches do so while the greater majority do not supports this idea.

We both know how to play Sonic so the point is NOT about whether Sonic is a hit and run character. This is just what it is and I'm trying to help with getting your term on the game style straightened out. This has nothing to do with various Sonic playstyles or in game tactics, this is Sonic.
This has nothing to do with DDing or ASC. Sonic hits someone, he has to get to them to hit them again. Whether it's a fsmash and they go far and can retaliate so he waits and chases or a dthrow and they're on the ground then they move and he chases. You strike on opportunity. That's just what it is, nothing more. :\

I am going to go ahead and presume you only have seen low level play between the two characters.
Which you probably have considering good Luigi users are rare.
Have you ever witnessed a game with Luigi vs Snake? I'm curious lol

I'm fortunate enough to have 2 very good Luigi players in the area, aside from myself. And 1 very good Snake about 5 hours away that attends the same tourneys. So yes, I've seen it plenty. :D

Except Fox has an approach that is better than Luigi's so while Luigi can set up Snake better, getting in for that setup is much, much harder than it is for Fox.

So when you are taking a longer amount of time to approach Snake, Snake has a much easier time charging up a Usmash and fire off another one to cover him vertically then remaining on the ground to tilt and cover his front.

Why? His groundwork is just that good. Its like trying to keep Olimar in the air, yes once you ahve done so you've gained an advantage but actually getting to that point is difficult.

If you really believe Luigi does that well against SNake I want you to post videos of your Luigi doing well against a good Snake.

I've deleted all of the crap that didn't mean much or was false information lol
Fox has a great approach, this is quite significant. Getting in for the set up is not difficult, the whole process in KOing for Luigi is not a problem. The lower % where Snake wont go high enough from a dsmash is where Luigi will accumulate % from Snakes tilts etc. That's the deciding factor in the match up.

Luigi actually destroys Oli >_>

I could, It'll be a long time though. Didn't record at my last tourney and wont be going to another until October/November, that's why I've suddenly been active here :} :] :| :[ :{

Your not yours

no I meant yours, it's right lol

Yes this is true, and it does affect the results, however it is not skewing the results so greatly. The results WILL be skewed but not too a significant enough degree that the results will be extremely inaccurate. There will be some inaccuracy no matter how much data there is but other than a handful of characters having much more points than everyone else (Snake, MK,. G&W, DDD) there hasn't been much of a skew.

I agree. There are a good number of reasons and ways the rankings list fits with the games best to worst characters. It just shouldn't be as big an influence on your decisions as you're taking it. (using it as a main point in your decisions for almost every topic, like really, that's just bad lol)

Christ now you run into the issue of the perfect shield meeting the perfect sword.
Cookie if you figure out why I said it.

I'll take a guess...
Very similar idea to a two faced question or problem? An argument that neither side can win as there are no openings to any side?

The best Pikachu hasn't been placing 1st in every single tournament neither has the best Snake.
I don't believe I argued against PIkachu having an advantage against SNake making this rather irrelevant.

K now you're taking it way too litterally.
And I'm not talking about that. Seeing those 2 face a common foe (not each other) is the important thing. Like in the same tourney or something? lol

1. You picked out 2 tactics out of several examples provided of Sonic approaching the opponent. Let alone the fact that you mix up your terms often.
Every time I have shown you how you are wrong you consistently insist that it is otherwise despite being unable to provide any good examples.
You can hit and run with Sonic but the rest of his tactics do not involve sucha thing. Visit the character forum, actually use the character and then check back to me with your argument.
Considering you said Snake was a good matchup for Sonic, I think you have no experience at all using the character. Or you played n00bs.
No, you've misread as I've misdirected.
No, you're just misinformed and confused.
lol this isn't something that can be argued.
Don't know why I commented on this useless rant.
Oh, and I do play n00bs quite often, along with the majority of the top 8 players in the country. But yes, I play n00bs >_< lol

Go ahead and post, I doubt it'll be any different.

This is a quick example of hit and run. It's Falcon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXVMjnT8KFE
This is another quick example of hit and run, Sonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCz-7EKWQJ8
That's all the comparing that will be done. I know you don't like to think about that one. lol
I don't know why you insist on poking being an equal to attacking then backing away. The goal is to hit as much and as hard while you can. Then square 1.

And you contracticted yourself when you said you hit then chase Marth to stay inside the wall. When you hit someone, you're not inside the wall anymore. You have to get there again, usually after they react with attacking or running away. Hit and run (run doesn't mean dash away if that's what you're thinking)

ICs went from 12(ish) to 6(ish) because of 1 player. Using the full potential of a character is how a tier list is determined, there's nothing more to be said about this. I'm sure you understand the concept enough.

When Futile did well with Wario, everybody suddenly thought Wario was much better than orginally presumed. This sort of thing happens all of the time, and for good reason. Wario isn't bottom tier like people thought at first. More examples if you still want to force an argument against the tier list itself some more.

Regarding the tourney results. *sigh* I wont shift what I've said to come from other people because I've also said it since then. I've spoken to the maker about it, more importantly I've seen him speak with others and speak about it and speak about his own idea on the tiers.

I could state the flaws, but I wont. As long as you understand that it is flawed means that you understand at least some point in which it is flawed. There is a reason capturing data from every tourney that means anything isn't the only factor in a tier list. There is a reason match ups aren't the only factor and nothing else is a single factor. The tier list is not something we make, it's something we find and you can't find that through statistics or theory. It consists of the peak potential of the character itself, nothing else should be taken into consideration once that peak is reached. But the reason everything else is taken towards finding the tier list is because the potential is so hard to reach. Especially at this point in the game.

Yeah, this post was pretty much the same. I'm not going to change my perceptions because they've changed to what they are for a reason. Best of luck to you finding your idea as a whole too.

lol too late
And good, I'll be happy to stop anytime. Just trying to help :D


The yellow was just easy for me to follow quoting.

adum: nuff said is just a way of saying that there's lots of reasons but there is no reason to post it. Such as
Bowsers Klaw goes through everything MK has(even nado).
The UpB eliminates MKs pressure game that he needs so much.
Bowser can get easy kills any way from anywhere with anything and MKs lack of weight makes it easier.
Bowser outranges MK
The match up itself is very dangerous for the Metaknight and he's actually the one that has to play safe and defensively. Which is not what MK is best suited for. MK has to win with the gimp game but that's something that can be avoided. MK can't avoid being light. Trading hits with Bowser is bad and Bowser can trade hits with MK every time.
It's not a great match up though. MK is MK of course. UpB, dsmash and nado kind of mean gg is inevitable at least. lol

 

[AlexX]

True, the Bananas are really crucial here though, if MK gains control of them, the advantage switches.

A good Diddy won't be letting MK gain control of the bananas so easily, though. The monkey has ways of making it difficult for the opponent to change control of the 'nanerz.

 

[Martial]

Luigi has **** all against Olimar, Dynamism?. Honestly, Luigi has **** all against pretty much everyone until he gets his *** out of E Rank.

EDIT:

A good Diddy won't be letting MK gain control of the bananas so easily, though. The monkey has ways of making it difficult for the opponent to change control of the 'nanerz.

This is very true. Most Diddys, faced with a good Meta, will stick with just one banana out on the field just to prevent this from happening.

 

[DanGR]

Luigi actually destroys Oli >_>

lol, what?

This is very true. Most Diddys, faced with a good Meta, will stick with just one banana out on the field just to prevent this from happening.

This^ is what I see Diddys using more often than using two bananerz against some of the faster characters such as MK.

 

[darkspatan117]

Pit is high tier i think

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. No he is not.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

^ya, pit isn't high tier... Just go away with your biased crap.

 

[Dynamism?]

lol Martial. wtf is E rank and how does he have nothing?
I wont discuss Luigi with you. You'll have to figure this stuff out on your own.

Nair > every attack Olimar has except his own utilt and nair, which it trades with.
As it was once stated, nuff said

 

[LuigiKing]

Actually, coming from a competant Luigi main, Olimar is a great matchup on Luigi's side. The tornado clanks against every single thing olimar can do on the ground, and the nair will drop right through Olimar's Usmash, Utilt, and Uair. There is not much Olimar can do in this matchup... then again, people hate Luigi so much they won't let him have a good matchup :D

 

[popsofctown]

i prefer to respond to multipoint quotes with the "color" method

I said "not even". It's 60/40. Mk's advantage.

Which seems to be the community consensus right now.
I might call it a community average, but i don't think a consensus exists. MK is at an advantage, but it's very arguable what that advantage is. maybe 55/45, maybe 60/40, maybe 50/50. Whatever it is, i think it's going to tilt towards Meta Knight, more and more.


True, the Bananas are really crucial here though, if MK gains control of them, the advantage switches.



Pretty much my position on this, MK has a definite advantage, but it's close (mainly because he kills MK early), but Mk has way too many advantages in this match-up to call it even.
This was about snake again^^. Killing early is a static advantage, that's why i think Snake's matchup number will fall over time


Mk needs to try to play this like he would if he was Marth, yes it's pretty much about spacing, but MK has better pressure and is more able to get and maintain the spacing.
This is about DK. DK vs. MK is doable. But DK has so many other bad matchups, we don't see this matchup show up to tournaments much.
Mk's advantage, 60/40.




One person vs. one person does not make an advantageous or neutral match-up, nuff said.
Again, Bowser isn't an all round good character. So this doesn't really help make the world a better place.
Still, worth considering.



True, 60/40, none of these are **** match-ups.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't see how Luigi has anything on Olimar.
Luigi's got no range.
Olimar has amazing range.

Olimar can camp and defend with the best of them.
Luigi can't approach.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

 

[Vect0r]

I don't see how Luigi has anything on Olimar.
Luigi's got no range.
Olimar has amazing range.

Olimar can camp and defend with the best of them.
Luigi can't approach.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Simple, weegee just waits until he has a chance to pop Olimar up in the air and juggle around a bit. Then again, Olimar usually camps. Mindgames are important here.

 

[cman]

Olimar can camp and defend with the best of them.
Luigi can't approach.

SO TRUE! Tornado is so pathetically slow and short mirite???

 

[ROOOOY!]

Lol well done Mr Sarky. Luigi will have to stay at long range before he can tornado anyway because of Olimar's range, and so if Luigi's starting it from a distance, it's going to be SO HARD to anticipate and sheild, amirite?

 

[DanGR]

Nair > every attack Olimar has except his own utilt and nair, which it trades with.
As it was once stated, nuff said

How's this different from every other attack from most other characters? All of sheik's aerials go through all of Olimar's pikmin attacks and uptilt as well. Same thing with Marth, MK, falco, (except Olimar's uptilt) wario, (except Olimar's uptilt) etc...

None of Olimar's attacks have good priority. All, but Olimar's uptilt and nair suck in that aspect.

 

[Snowstalker]

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf

MIDDLE:

Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Fox
Peach
Lucas
Ness

LOW:

Mario
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[popsofctown]

That tier list is perfect^^ or very close to perfect.

 

[Dynamism?]

List

That's about as good as anything so far. Well done.

There's one obvious thing to note though. It kind of stands out.
Lucas is worse than Ness by quite a bit. This has been known for a few months. Just a heads up there.

Nice list all around.


Dan
It's called a sex kick and it's sexy and with very little time between the sex kick and the sexy nado, it's Olimar dead sexy. Marth and MK go through, they don't penetrate. Sex kicks will penetrate through the Pik and attack entirely. Especially Luigis quick rapid penetrating attacks including his sex kicks followed by nados. Super sekret sexy special skillz.

I'm not going to discuss Luigi, already said that.
But I'll gladly throw in hints and fun things like that. lol


Also on that list, with a GOD TIER I think it's only right to have a GARBAGE TIER to balance it out. So with MK at the top of top, it's essentially the same thing anyway. :\

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

1337 TIER: J-PUFF

BOTTOM TIER: all the other useless characterz.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He was amazing, but as you said there were more ICs. Therefore your following statement about how hand picking a few makes it player based is totally contracting this. Don't worry, I deleted it for you.

How does it contradict?
Again if you have one person like azen who deviates a good amount from the majority of people it is incorrect to do so. It does not contradict at all.
It becomes played based rather than character based.

That's a really insignificant factor in deciding this, not surprised you mentioned it though. After so many large tourneys etc, more of the people that had a say were familiar with the match up enough to understand what the ICs could do. That's why he went up after all.

Not really. Before chudat no one really expected them to be capable of what chudat showed. So it was indeed a factor.
i would say he most liekly ended up being slowed down as peole became more familiarized, but we don't have the records to show this.

this supports hit and run lol
you missed the point.
in that video you saw how long it took for Fox to drop his shield and counter.
So if I jabbed there was less of an oppurtunity for the opponent to attack, they would have to powersiheld in order for them to attack instantly and counter.

in THIS game (mind you that was melee) the shield stun is lesser.

So if Fox had shielded a jab he could have countered and jabbed falcon back.
That doesn't support hit and run considering its a different game with different dash mechanics.

Of course they're not equal, but they are the same concept. Just like Jiggs and Ike are. Would I have to go into that too or do you understand why that is?
lol maybe I will, maybe I wont

Anyone who has ever used captain Falcon in melee at high level and then gone and used sonic will tell you they are NOTHING alike.

Fraknly you're just grasping at things that do NOT exist.

I never even commented on ASC, my bad for not making what I was quoting on clearer. :\[/COLOR

E-_-;
This is relevant how?
Again if you look at all of Sonic's mehods of approaching the majority of them are NOT hit and run.

That's just it, if you hit him but ONCE, you wouldn't be inside so you have to get back in without getting hit by the fair. It's a simple situation lol[/COLOR

Or marth can just OOS Dolphin slash you in the face. there goes your running.

This has nothing to do with DDing or ASC. Sonic hits someone, he has to get to them to hit them again.

you just summarized everyone else.
After the opponent escaped a combo.

Whether it's a fsmash and they go far and can retaliate so he waits and chases or a dthrow and they're on the ground then they move and he chases. You strike on opportunity. That's just what it is, nothing more. :\

Thats chasing not hit and run. Get your terms straight. you directly contradict yourself there.

I'm fortunate enough to have 2 very good Luigi players in the area, aside from myself. And 1 very good Snake about 5 hours away that attends the same tourneys. So yes, I've seen it plenty. :D

1 good snake and 3 good luigi players.
You don't see where this actually takes away from what you've said right?

Luigi actually destroys Oli >_>

yep thats it I am through talking to you both on Sonic and matchups. Frankly you're saying alot of thngs that are known to be untrue for me to take you seriously.

Sonic is not hit and run.
Luigi does not do well against Snake.
Luigi does not do a **** thing to Olimar.

i won't discuss the subjects any further with you.
I don't know if that snake player you're playing is actually good or your skill level but considering that everything else that has been seen and recorded does not agree with you, I am extremely doubtful of your arguments.

I agree. There are a good number of reasons and ways the rankings list fits with the games best to worst characters. It just shouldn't be as big an influence on your decisions as you're taking it. (using it as a main point in your decisions for almost every topic, like really, that's just bad lol)

not really.
For one if you really have seen my discussions you'll also notice I bring up alot concerning matchups and tactics as well as the abilities of characters.

So you are partially correct.
I do take tournament results into account but not as majorly as you think.

I'll take a guess...
Very similar idea to a two faced question or problem? An argument that neither side can win as there are no openings to any side?

Close.

If the top pikachu player will win every tournament they are in, and the best snake player wins every tournament they are in, then when they meet who do you think will win?

Assuming that they ALWAYS win then you encounter the issue above.

foe (not each other) is the important thing. Like in the same tourney or something? lol

No, you've misread as I've misdirected.
No, you're just misinformed and confused.
lol this isn't something that can be argued.
Don't know why I commented on this useless rant.
Oh, and I do play n00bs quite often, along with the majority of the top 8 players in the country. But yes, I play n00bs >_< lol

So rather than actually address the argument you choose to call me misinformed and confused.
you are just wasting my time.

This is a quick example of hit and run. It's Falcon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXVMjnT8KFE
This is another quick example of hit and run, Sonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCz-7EKWQJ8
That's all the comparing that will be done. I know you don't like to think about that one. lol
I don't know why you insist on poking being an equal to attacking then backing away.
The goal is to hit as much and as hard while you can. Then square 1.

Those were rather bad comparisons.

In video 1 for Falcon vs marth, alot of what he did was indeed hit and run. Rushing forward for a grab then running away or rushing in for a Nair and then running if it failed. that
however what Lucky was doing was bait and punish.

Lucky didn't
't go in for a grab then run away or attack then run away, he stopped outside of marth's range then when Marth did or did not react, punish.

Look at the beginning. he would force a reaction from the opponent and then punish them.
Dash shield before he enters the attack range of his opponent and then attacking after the reaction, that is bait and punishment. Considering Lucky does that the majority of the game tha doesn't mean much for him being hit and run.

Falcon could hit and run against marth, he went in for grabs and ran or aerials then ran away.

They do indeed look similar but the tactics are different in their behavior.

yes sonic dd use some hit and run against the Marth, but the majority of his approaches and chases were based off of bait and punish. They look similar but involve different properties.

And you contracticted yourself when you said you hit then chase Marth to stay inside the wall. When you hit someone, you're not inside the wall anymore.

my apologies I mean when you first hit someone or land a successful strike you're in their wall because at that point they cannot react until you have smacked them away.

You have to get there again, usually after they react with attacking or running away. Hit and run (run doesn't mean dash away if that's what you're thinking)

You didnt finish the sentence I think.
Anyway the difference is that when it comes to baiting and punishment you are forcing a reaction by moving ina certain way or taking different actions.
Dash to sideB cancel to roll/spot dodge/Dsmash is baiting and then punishing the action your opponent takes.

With hit and run you're maintaining greater pressure than in baiting and punishment.
You're constantly keeping the attacks ont he opponent while repeatedly dodging the opponents attacks.

its more offensive than bait and punishment and in the two videos, you can see that Falcon was playing more offensively than Sonic who played more safely.

ICs went from 12(ish) to 6(ish) because of 1 player. Using the full potential of a character is how a tier list is determined, there's nothing more to be said about this. I'm sure you understand the concept enough.

Can you show me where you got this data please?
I believe they are still around 12 in tier placement in melee.

When Futile did well with Wario, everybody suddenly thought Wario was much better than orginally presumed. This sort of thing happens all of the time, and for good reason. Wario isn't bottom tier like people thought at first. More examples if you still want to force an argument against the tier list itself some more.

Explain where I argued the tier list please.
Anyways yes Wario was shown to have great potential when Futile used him.
Does this mean wario was better than originally thought? Duh.
but its the same as chudat and the IC's.
Yes he really does show what wario is capable of but if the other Wario's aren't having similar results such success isn't going to be taken as greatly.
you can't just work on face value alone just because one person does especially well with a character.

Or do you believe that link in SSb64 is not bottom tier?

Regarding the tourney results. *sigh* I wont shift what I've said to come from other people because I've also said it since then. I've spoken to the maker about it, more importantly I've seen him speak with others and speak about it and speak about his own idea on the tiers.

This matters how?=
just saying I spoke with so and so doesn't mean much if you don't tell the results of that discussion.

I could state the flaws, but I wont. As long as you understand that it is flawed means that you understand at least some point in which it is flawed. There is a reason capturing data from every tourney that means anything isn't the only factor in a tier list. There is a reason match ups aren't the only factor and nothing else is a single factor. The tier list is not something we make, it's something we find and you can't find that through statistics or theory.

Thats a rather large conundrum you've created.
No tier list is crafted on theory.
no tier list is made officially without tournament results.
again tier lists don't have to follow tournament results, however they do provide solid strength towards the other arguments.

For example your argument is that pikachu is top tier.
however if you don't have any data to back up the argument you said, then the argument cannot proceed anywhere since there is nothing to really to support to your argument.

The statistic are needed to help shape a tier list. Again they do not make the tier list they help factor into the tier list.
They are just one factor of several others. Its just that tournament results tend to have more influence by itself because of how they provide the actual results and help prove or disprove theories that ahve been made earler.

It consists of the peak potential of the character itself, nothing else should be taken into consideration once that peak is reached. But the reason everything else is taken towards finding the tier list is because the potential is so hard to reach. Especially at this point in the game.

it does consist of peak potential of the character itself however how can you decide if it is character ability and not just player skill?

There will always be people who are just that good and if you only were to focus on those player's performance, the results wouldn't be as accurate as they should be.
you wouldn't have enough information to say that the player wasn't skewing the results because of their skill rather than it being a result of the characters ability.

Yeah, this post was pretty

Bowser outranges MK[/quoet]
Woah woah woah. I am calling you on this.
Range?
Explain now.

 

[Pieisthebest]

^Umm In the most recent list the IC are 7th ;>_>

Buts its very outdated. Everyone knows Marth > Falco

 

[gantrain05]

im gonna have to agree with you, luigi really cant do **** to snake or olimar, but he's still a very good character, i think he may even have the potential to someday be high tier,

oh and dynamism? wtf are you talking about man, sonic isn't hit and run, sonic is hit and chase, which quite frankly doesn't work too well in a game with zero hitstun and infinite air dodges, sonic just isnt that good.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Gantrain have you ever gotten chased by Sonic?
Its much more intimidating and effective than most people think. Its not as punishing as say Fox, but its rather difficult to deal with Sonic if he has pushed you off the stage.

Tenki loves giving me a hardtime when I am using anyone else besides Sonic.

Even if they airdodge Sonic can still hit them due to little cooldown time they have.

He does decently with the system given. He'd be frightening to use in melee though.


Edit: I ,must go now. I am going to watch some DVD's on the wii.


Edit2: Really? I thought the IC's had dropped recently.

 

[Dynamism?]

I just watched Tropic Thunder. Hilarious in a really bad way. PExpress was great too. Saw that this weekend. I love R D journiers acting, great role. haha

Back on topic. This has become oddly entertaining, I don't want to comment but I will lol
I'm also going to eliminate much of these things because these quotes are getting long.

Not really. Before chudat no one really expected them to be capable of what chudat showed. So it was indeed a factor.
i would say he most liekly ended up being slowed down as peole became more familiarized, but we don't have the records to show this.

This probably happened yes. But at the same time as they evolve and adapt I'm sure the ICs players did. So it balances itself out naturally as all things changing.

So if Fox had shielded a jab he could have countered and jabbed falcon back.
That doesn't support hit and run considering its a different game with different dash mechanics.

Anyone who has ever used captain Falcon in melee at high level and then gone and used sonic will tell you they are NOTHING alike.

Then why jab? Just dthrow or whatever you prefer. They're not the same character after all. Doc and Mario didn't even play alike in melee. So the needed abilities to play Falcon in melee shouldn't seem similar to Sonic in Brawl. lol
Just thought I'd throw that out there because these comments (we're both making) about jabs and comparing are just taking space.

Again if you look at all of Sonic's mehods of approaching the majority of them are NOT hit and run.

Or marth can just OOS Dolphin slash you in the face. there goes your running.

Thats chasing not hit and run. Get your terms straight. you directly contradict yourself there.

Hit and run isn't just approach. It also comes into play after a hit. Often you wont have to run because the hit sends them away instead. (the run doesn't mean litterally moving away and the hit can be throws etc, don't take the term litterally)

Where does the Dslash come in? nvm, doesn't matter or make sense. Misread I think. Don't comment cause it'll take room lol

Arg, not to compare again but Falcon needs to chase in melee just the same. lol

Sonic is not hit and run.
Luigi does not do well against Snake.
Luigi does not do a **** thing to Olimar.

Well don't say I didn't tell you so when you see it for yourself.
But yes this discussions over lol

considering that everything else that has been seen and recorded does not agree with you, I am extremely doubtful of your arguments.

You've got that backwards. The Luigi, Snake, Olimar and Sonics that have a deep understanding of this is what I agree with. Someone I agree with (because they know now after probably experience and understanding) even posted in this thread not too long ago.
Quote-Olimar is a great matchup on Luigi's side

So far I've had more proof than you. But I'm not arguing that the sky is blue for anyones sake but those that haven't seen it yet. Considering they're the ones that don't know yet.

Close.

Half a cookie? lol

If the top pikachu player will win every tournament they are in, and the best snake player wins every tournament they are in, then when they meet who do you think will win?

Assuming that they ALWAYS win then you encounter the issue above.

Again way too litteral lol
But the Pika, because the match up is in his favor. (I just through this in to be annoying teehee)

So rather than actually address the argument

There was no argument, it was jibberish from both sides taking space lol

They do indeed look similar but the tactics are different in their behavior.

yes sonic dd use some hit and run against the Marth, but the majority of his approaches and chases were based off of bait and punish. They look similar but involve different properties.

I see what you're saying and completely agree. This is not what I meant to point to but this is probably where the discussion went sideways. The approach can be bait and punish. He needs to chase and there are many ways to do that and all different situationally.

Hit and run style of play summed up: Getting from outside a perimeter to inside that perimeter repeatedly. Once inside the perimeter, do as much towards the goal as possible. Once the intrusion of the perimeter faulters, you must get out of the perimeter.

Sonic has no projectiles and little range meaning that there is a perimeter between him and his opponent. To get past this perimeter and cause damage and stay safe when in the space of this perimeter is his goal. His speed is a great asset in getting passed the perimeter and out of the perimeters space. Given that being inside the perimeter perminitaly is near impossible, the hit and run method is used to both get passed and get out.

That is all I can and have to say. There's nothing more to this as far as I, along with the concept of hit and run in games, is concerned. :\

my apologies I mean when you first hit someone or land a successful strike you're in their wall because at that point they cannot react until you have smacked them away.

Ok
This actually wasn't something I expected because I had no idea you were talking about this when you originally replied to me. I was talking about something else that you later mentioned. Another subject to be dropped.
We're getting some space cleared yay!

With hit and run you're maintaining greater pressure than in baiting and punishment.
You're constantly keeping the attacks ont he opponent while repeatedly dodging the opponents attacks.

its more offensive than bait and punishment and in the two videos, you can see that Falcon was playing more offensively than Sonic who played more safely.

Shield pressure is melees game, Falcons game.
Sonic is different and Brawl is different.
(well obviously)
Another thing to be dropped. Or at least this part of the topic lol

Can you show me where you got this data please?
I believe they are still around 12 in tier placement in melee.

I lol'd
But yeah 7th. The year before the rise they were 13-10, kind of moving around there.
drop the ICs thing too?

This matters how?=
just saying I spoke with so and so doesn't mean much if you don't tell the results of that discussion.

To you?
lol you're the one that asked so I just answered. What's the problem with that? XD

Thats a rather large conundrum you've created.
No tier list is crafted on theory.
no tier list is made officially without tournament results.
again tier lists don't have to follow tournament results, however they do provide solid strength towards the other arguments.

yay so we definitely both get it lol
dropped too

For example your argument is that pikachu is top tier.
however if you don't have any data to back up the argument you said, then the argument cannot proceed anywhere since there is nothing to really to support to your argument.

The statistic are needed to help shape a tier list. Again they do not make the tier list they help factor into the tier list.
They are just one factor of several others. Its just that tournament results tend to have more influence by itself because of how they provide the actual results and help prove or disprove theories that ahve been made earler.

I completely forgot to comment on Pika last post. o.O

Pika does have the potential to be top tier. This isn't really something that's going to change my mind and I'm pretty sure I don't have proof in a large scale tourney ranking list with anything supporting this or masses of decent players all over the world using Pika.
I suppose I'll just have to wait and see. If my predictions from back in the late demo days are correct, then great, if not, oh well. I honestly think he can be and will be. More than everyone else aside from MK anyway.
If results are all you care for then you'll have to wait until some Pikas show up more often. I'm going to go ahead and assume he's a great character for the other reasons like match ups and where players have taken him as far as gameplay goes in the areas that Pikas even exist.

it does consist of peak potential of the character itself however how can you decide if it is character ability and not just player skill?

That's the only argument that's actually valid so far. There are more than 1 Pika, but even 5 to 10 isn't enough. And this applies to most characters. The one flaw in this is something that cannot be determined. "How good are they?" because the tier itself varries the characters and if the players varry, there is no ground. :\

There will always be people who are just that good and if you only were to focus on those player's performance, the results wouldn't be as accurate as they should be.
you wouldn't have enough information to say that the player wasn't skewing the results because of their skill rather than it being a result of the characters ability.

exactly
"How good are they?" will always be a problem until 9 years pass or however long it takes for another game to come out lol

Yeah, this post was pretty

:D

Woah woah woah. I am calling you on this.
Range?
Explain now.

Fiiiirrrreeee!!!!! lol jkz that's no fair
ftilt? If you're talking hitbox to hurtbox or who will hit who if they both use the attack then I'm not sure. The Klaw will beat his fsmash if that's the case anyway. Bowser fsmash from a stand still is rangiest though.



The ICs haven't moved down, or rather wouldn't.
Marth>awll
Peachy>Shekiky
Luigi ^^^^^
Yoshi ^^^
Kirby vv
Pika vvvvv
Jiggs ^^

It was a few things like that when Barlw interfered with its creation.

gant: Luigi could very well be high tier yes. And rather then arguing for the sake of arguing, research the match up. I don't like discussing with no base to the subject that isn't a vague false statement when the answers you'll here are just a couple clicks away.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I
This probably happened yes. But at the same time as they evolve and adapt I'm sure the ICs players did. So it balances itself out naturally as all things changing.

rue, however even if they did this didn't mean that they would lose as badly or be unsure of what to do.

Then why jab? Just dthrow or whatever you prefer.

I said for example. Don't take it too literally.

They're not the same character after all. Doc and Mario didn't even play alike in melee. So the needed abilities to play Falcon in melee shouldn't seem similar to Sonic in Brawl. lol
Just thought I'd throw that out there because these comments (we're both making) about jabs and comparing are just taking space.

Yes but we are comparing tactics. in melee Falcon was capable of doing hit and run on a level that Sonic is not capable of in brawl.
hence why Sonic is not hit and run, the constraints of the system as well as the overall slower paced means it just dens't work for him.
its bait, punish, chase rather than hit and run.

Hit and run isn't just approach. It also comes into play after a hit. Often you wont have to run because the hit sends them away instead. (the run doesn't mean litterally moving away and the hit can be throws etc, don't take the term litterally)

Course not but that means chasing them it is somewhat separate from hit and run tactics even though one leads to the other.

Where does the Dslash come in? nvm, doesn't matter or make sense. Misread I think. Don't comment cause it'll take room lol

t was an example of what marth could do. so lets say I rush in as sonic and I go for a jab, tilt or grab.
An OOS dolphin slash has invincibility frames and so he could knock me away as I am about to grab him.
rather than exchance hits with the grab he would bypass it entirely.

Arg, not to compare again but Falcon needs to chase in melee just the same. lol

true but the means of starting a chase were somewhat different.

You've got that backwards. The Luigi, Snake, Olimar and Sonics that have a deep understanding of this is what I agree with. Someone I agree with (because they know now after probably experience and understanding) even posted in this thread not too long ago.
Quote-Olimar is a great matchup on Luigi's side

So far I've had more proof than you. But I'm not arguing that the sky is blue for anyones sake but those that haven't seen it yet. Considering they're the ones that don't know yet

Really?

The entire Sonic forums agrees that Sonic is at a disadvantage against snake.
The majority of smashboards argue that Luigi does not do well against Olimar and Snake.

Simply because you speak with the few doesn't mean their opinions areof the many.

Frankly I would like to know what Sonic mains you have been speaking to in particular.

Half a cookie? lol

What?

Again way too litteral lol
But the Pika, because the match up is in his favor. (I just through this in to be annoying teehee)

I know. And it failed.

Concept

Unnecessary since that isn't what i am arguing about, its more based on sonic's behavior.

If this were melee then I would agree Sonic is hit and run then chase character.


Again as I mentioned yes Sonic has a great asset when it comes to his speed. however as I mentioned earlier he just doesn't have that ability to dash in and out of that perimeter with ease. mostly due to the changes in gameplay. So he has to create a large hole in the opponents defenses by baiting. he also has to play more safely because the opponent can more easily counter even if he is in the mddle of jabbing them. (yeah they can actualy whack him before he kicks them during a jab combo. Rather sad huh?)

Ok

This actually wasn't something I expected because I had no idea you were talking about this when you originally replied to me. I was talking about something else that you later mentioned. Another subject to be dropped.
We're getting some space cleared yay!

Dude just delete the quote rather than post a comment. @_@

Shield pressure is melees game, Falcons game.
Sonic is different and Brawl is different.
(well obviously)
Another thing to be dropped. Or at least this part of the topic lol

Actually Sonic isn't too bad at eating the opponents shield.
ASC hits three times when it is used (10% per hit) and his Fair can chew as well.
you can also use his Usmash which has high priority on it.(it eats the shield really well like ipkachu's Dsmash)

I lol'd
But yeah 7th. The year before the rise they were 13-10, kind of moving around there.
drop the ICs thing too?[/quoe]
yeah I was wrong on that part.

To you?
lol you're the one that asked so I just answered. What's the problem with that? XD

Well you are arguing that the tournament rankings list is terribly flawed it makes sense if you bring back all the details rather than what you did only.

Pika does have the potential to be top tier. This isn't really something that's going to change my mind and I'm pretty sure I don't have proof in a large scale tourney ranking list with anything supporting this or masses of decent players all over the world using Pika.
I suppose I'll just have to wait and see. If my predictions from back in the late demo days are correct, then great, if not, oh well. I honestly think he can be and will be. More than everyone else aside from MK anyway.
If results are all you care for then you'll have to wait until some Pikas show up more often. I'm going to go ahead and assume he's a great character for the other reasons like match ups and where players have taken him as far as gameplay goes in the areas that Pikas even exist.

Well its not just tournament results. if you look at Mk he basically defines top tier you notice that pikachu just does not have that same level of gameplay
yeah he is really good at what he does but considering his matchups are not as good as Mk and G&W(another matchup *****) so that alone casts doubt.
h e is definitely going to be a high tiered character but I have doubt on him being top tier.

not when the gaps in the tiers is larger than they were in melee.

That's the only argument that's actually valid so far.

i've been saying it repeatedly. -_-;

There are more than 1 Pika, but even 5 to 10 isn't enough. And this applies to most characters. The one flaw in this is something that cannot be determined. "How good are they?" because the tier itself varries the characters and if the players varry, there is no ground. :\

of course which is why you need that large amount of data. It shows the deviation as well as overall behavior.
That way some sort of idea can be provided as to how good that character may be.

exactly
"How good are they?" will always be a problem until 9 years pass or however long it takes for another game to come out lol

I don't know. i think Brawl will advance more quickly than melee. I would at most give it 3 years.

ftilt?

Maybe. but if you're saying he outranges Mk it would be more than just 2 or 3.

No. If you're talking hitbox to hurtbox or who will hit who if they both use the attack then I'm not sure. The Klaw will beat his fsmash if that's the case anyway. Bowser fsmash from a stand still is rangiest though.

if its ground then the will clash if there is a difference of 10% r less. A few things that break that rule is pikachu's Dsmash (odd maybe its cause of the disjointed hitboxes?)

Either way in terms of range Mk does beat bowser out, i think he does priority wise as well. least aerially anyway.

 

[Dynamism?]

I said for example. Don't take it too literally.

;P

The entire Sonic forums agrees that Sonic is at a disadvantage against snake.

And I think Snake has an advantage if not even too. It's not very significant though.

The majority of smashboards argue that Luigi does not do well against Olimar and Snake.

That's why they have much to learn.

Again as I mentioned yes Sonic has a great asset when it comes to his speed. however as I mentioned earlier he just doesn't have that ability to dash in and out of that perimeter with ease. mostly due to the changes in gameplay. So he has to create a large hole in the opponents defenses by baiting. he also has to play more safely because the opponent can more easily counter even if he is in the mddle of jabbing them. (yeah they can actualy whack him before he kicks them during a jab combo. Rather sad huh?)

I'm not sure but this sounds like you agree but don't know it yet lol

Strike when there's an opportunity, avoid the counters because the opponent will have openings after being hit, strike again.

Actually Sonic isn't too bad at eating the opponents shield.
ASC hits three times when it is used (10% per hit) and his Fair can chew as well.
you can also use his Usmash which has high priority on it.(it eats the shield really well like ipkachu's Dsmash)

All characters have a variety of different abilities for the various tricks in the game. Edge guarding, shield pressuring etc. Sonic has it too of course. So we agree. Though you are saying he's even more like Falcon this way. Just teasing because I know what you're actually trying to say. And what's really cool is his super fast start up dash attack that actually hits and runs at the same time because he moves so far whether they block or not. ;P

h e is definitely going to be a high tiered character but I have doubt on him being top tier.

Same from me, but with not much doubt. lol
This will be a time issue but I'll just say one last thing, sort of as a heads up.

There are not many Pikachu mains out there. Not many people have faced good Pikas so most people don't know how to play against Pika or know how Pika would play against them. There are only a few things at this point in time that even show that Pika even has potential. Still, you can see what Pika can do even if they aren't in recorded rankings or charts.
One being the way he is a great counter to much of the cast with some of the most one sided match ups in the game (eg. Fox).
Another is the way the few that do well with him have been essentially undefeated since May in all tourneys they've attended. Including those of which some of the best players around them that have played them regularly and in turn have fallen to them in the tourneys (eg Anther).
And probably the most significant factor, that I think goes overlooked...You once mentioned that one good player doesn't take into account the many styles of that character. And at this point in Brawls developement there are many styles. Most characters have a designated style or several effective styles. ROB has the UpB combo game, many rely on the camping aspect, some prefer close combat and walls, some mix it up but there is only so much room because ROB is best played certain ways, as are most characters. Pikachu though, is not only very difficult to use but of those that have taken Pika to another level, none of them play anything alike. Pikachu has more diverse styles doing well than practically the rest of the roster with very few high level Pikas to begin with. Comparing one successfull Pika to another is like comparing Mewtwo, Fox, Jiggs and Link in melee. (exageration but not too much) They are that different. And I studied this because of how fascinating it was when I saw it. It amazes me, and I now understand how far away the limits of his potential are from where even the best players have brought him to this day.

But it's still a wait it out thing.

not when the gaps in the tiers is larger than they were in melee.

Are you sure this will be the case? I've heard this a few times but I don't see it.
Kirby, Pichu and Mewtwo can't even touch Fox, Falco and Marth in the game as a whole. Surely Ganon, Link and Jiggs can do something compared to MK, Snake and G&W throughout the game. Anything? lol.

I don't know. i think Brawl will advance more quickly than melee. I would at most give it 3 years.

Yeah it wont take 9 like melee before someone figures out how to use Jiggs the way Mango could lol. Brawl doesn't have the crucial masses of techs as melee to last as long.

Either way in terms of range Mk does beat bowser out, i think he does priority wise as well. least aerially anyway.

Possible but Bowsers fsmash is the rangiest move between them when it comes to area covered. But Bowser moves forward in the process and it's a slowish move so it's not used often and he's cheating? lol

And SideB outprioritizes everything MK does, even grabs him out of nado taking 1% and has great range (better than MKs dsmash). It also deals 16-18% (and we all know how ligh MK is and how easy Bowser kills) and it sets up advantagous positioning for Bowser. And it's aerial too. I love that move :D


Oh and the cookie, because I was close on getting the sword shield being perfect thing.
Half a cookie?