then end it with the tag/
1. Yes that applies to every character. That's the point, it's a balanced scale taking only the peak of that character. A very common example is Chu and the ICs. There was 1 of him, 1 ICs, he reached the peak with them to match the many MANY other players for the many other characters. Just because there is only 1 ICs doesn't mean the ICs aren't good. People recognized this and that's why the ICs were known to be good, even after 1 ICs, 1 player, reached that potential. And through Brawl, at this very moment, there is at least 1 good player with each individual character that have come closest to this "peak" with the given character. 20 Falcon, 1 ICs, Falcon isn't 20 times better than the ICs. Follow 1 player with each character. This is the only way to determine this tier just as it was the past tiers, facts* :D
Chudat did indeed prove that the IC's were better than originally thought. however despite what he did they never went beyond mid tier despite how amazing he did. Simply because other IC mainers simply did not have the same results. The results did improve but there weren't many replicating Chudat's results.
No and frankly you shouldn't compare him to melee falcon since they both work entirely different.
For one Sonic can't just hit and run like Falcon did n melee due to the limits of dash dancing.
not only that he is a baiting type not a hit then run type. He baits, then punishes then chases. There is not much hit and run because not only is shieldstun lesser making the hit part more vulnerable.
You CAN do some hit and run tactics, but otherwise they won't work very effectively.
Falcon was hit and run in melee yet he still needed to follow and had to pressure and chase. Starting over happens a LOT. It's the neutral state in the game and you must get an advantage from there. That's where the need to approach comes into play. It's the nature of the game.
You don't listen very well do you?
Starting over is a natural part of the game yes, but the issue is that you want to maintain that advantage as long s you can.W ,hen you face marth and Snake, the speed of their attacks as well as the priority makes this an issue.
Not only is returning to a neutral state bad when they get away from a disadvantage, but it's good when you get away from a disadvantage. Being at a distance is also one of Sonics more advantageous points because of his speed game in approaching.
Once you lose that advantage and return to that neutral slate it means thats depending on what character your opponent is using, you will either have an easier time gaining that advantage or being at a disadvantage.
The whole point of the argument is to maintain the advantage you gain.
This goes for your opponent as well, if they already have a natural disadvantage they should be striving to maintain that moment of advantage.
If you are playing Marth and have the advantage, don't start over. If you're going to get punished, move away. Hit and run doesn't mean waiting for long periods. The hit and run involves the chase and the moment between the hit, the run to avoid the counter attack or not miss a dodging opponent then hitting again is only a split second. Sonic is hit and run, he speed is his greatest asset and used accordingly that is what his speed is for.
Yes Sonic 's speed is his greatest asset. however that speed is best taken advantage of when you are chasing the opponent after you have attacked them or popped them into the air. Not running.
Yeah can jab spot dodge jab spotdodge jab run away but that gets sonic nowhere.
You can use spincharge ~homing attack then back away but again that drags the match along and Sonic is not the type of character who can wait out his opponent.
You can use hit and run on the slower characters but even the slower characters have methods of dealing with hit and run behavior.
Sonic baits and punishes. He doesn't conduct hit and run int he manner you are thinking.
He limits.
if I ASC a DDD he does't have many options.
If he dodges in the direction I am moving he will get hit if I continue the ASC.
if he shields he gets his shield eaten and I can footstool him in case he goes for a shield grab.
If he spot dodges he will get hit.
if he dodges opposite of where I am moving I can continue moving and avoid getting punished or cancel, turn around and dash attack him and maintain pressure.
As I mentioned he can use hit and run tactics, but that generally doesn't work too well for him because while he does look like he is moving very quickly, he isn't getting to his goal quickly enough.
With low shield stun the opponent has a much shorter amount of time to attack or move away and ease the pressure.
With the contraints on dash movement you can't just rush in as quickly either.
Sonic travels a long distance with his dash animation and he slides a noticable distance when he stops.
To get through Marths "wall" and Marth to catch you in the small distance that is his "wall" is both the reason Sonic uses the hit and run inside then outside the wall to avoid is swipes for the advantage and the same reason Marth tries to stop Sonic in the wall to get his own advantage. In and out, hit and run, back and forth with advantage and disadvantage. And ultimately Sonic can hold the say in when you get the "advantage" because his speed to get from a distance to inside is the tool that will beat the Marth.
You must be joking. Why would I repeatedly place myself in his wall and not take advantage?
Why not grab him and go into a Dthrow then CHASE him with a spincharge or CHASE him for a D throw and continue CHASING him.
running in then running out accomplishes nothing because for oen, while Sonic's dash speed is great he doesn't have the same agility that Captain Falcon did in melee due to dashing restraints.
Not only that it does nothing in anyway to limit Marths options at all. He can use all his safe moves and by the time you turn around to hit him he can easily just jab at you again and keep you away.
That hit and run tactic isnt going to accomplish what needs to be accomplished in the time you need it.
3.C4, motor slide etc will not stop Luigi. A neutral B will stop him from sliding, he can do so out of range from his tilts and it might not be versitile but Snake isn't one that's going to jump over. Luigis attacks (almost all of them) come out so quick that if Snake tries Snake dashing he'll get down smashed into the air (if there is no fireball) and nearly everything has knocks into the air which is exactly where Snake is bad and Luigi thrives. The only thing that keeps Snake in this match up at all is his tilts. Really, Luigi can nearly camp Snake. :O
Why would Snake DAC TOWARDS Luigi?
mortar slide has crap priority he isn;t going to use it as a means of attacking the opponent. The offensive options for it are bad.
Luigi will be forced to approach because snake can easily use a Nikita and there goes your fireball.
Luigi cannot camp Snake. Luigi cannot approach Snake.
yes once you get Snake into the air you will have a large advantage, but the difficulty is actually getting close to put him into the air.
Trading hits with Snake is never good so an aerial approach isn't best and Down B will trade with a tilt if the Snake is ready. A simple fireball will make Snake shield or at least screw Snakes chances of evading it every time (unless Snakes missles through it which would in turn give Luigi significant time to aerial approach even at his speed or Snake can roll/jump away which will set up an easy move for Luigi to get Snake in the air anyways).
Or he can use a nikita or he can use his grenades to cover himself up clsoe. or he can cook grenades then toss them at you.
Luigi has slow movement speed so by the time you get in range for your fireball Snake already has everything set to counter the fireball and ensure that he is not harmed.
If Snake gets below Luigi, utilt destroys him but an SideB will give Luigi plenty of room to land.
yes lets ignore the long start up and the long cooldown time.
Even a timed dair or nair will actually trade with utilt and that can pull Snake into the air in itself.
considering how far you'll go up and how fast Snake can fall that is unlikely.
And DownB upon landing works wonders to get to and away from Snake.
until you his a claymore, C4, grenades, nikita, or trae with a tilt as you mentioned earlier (which contradicts you).
Luigi can take Snake into the air easily enough
how he cannot even approach Snake that well.
and once Snake is in the air it's a ton of damage or a stock.
Or Snake can drop grenades and C4 or nikita to cover himself from below.
Considering Luigi's low aerial speed he isn't going to be capable of taking off a stock. Yeah you will do damage but after a certain percentage you don't have much of a mehod to rack up damage.
let alone the fact its difficult getting him into the air.
Luigi is also one of the few that can kill Snake regularly at very low % and has everything in his moveset to set the various finishers up.
no I wont provide that lol
Frankly because of how improbable it is?
Ike can kill everyone at low percents but do you know how low the chances are off killing someone at 70%
4.
Dedede is considered THE only true Pikachu counter. Pika does not have the advantage there, that's possibly the only significantly difficult match up for him. Bair, utilt and grabs... >_>
How do Snake, G&W and MK out do him by a significant amount? Whatever, that's not even a statement or anything that has anything to do with something being in their favorlol
Snake beats out Pikachu in terms of ground work.
Mk beats him in terms of... everything else 9except Pikachu has a projectile).
G&W outdoes him aerially, priority.
All three beat him out in terms of matchups and TOURNAMENT RESULTS.
Pikachu has matchups that go hand in hand with MK and G&W as the best overall match ups in the game.
Dedede is close but against him, then even with about a half a dozen that include characters like Zelda and G&W, them advantages over everone from big guys to spacies.
meanwhile MK, G&W and Snake do better than Pikachu in the number of advantage and neutrals (which they have shown) and have less disadvantages and no hard counters. (except maybe Snake)
You say "just as well tournement wise" like it's the only thing that matters. Do you not see the flaw in this? I don't think I need to explain but I'll just give the little speal that has debunked the whole concept a thousand times already.
you would be best in explaining because it sounds highly unliely for you to debunk the whole tournament rankings.
shall i pull up the numbers again?
Here let me say it for you.
THERE IS TOO MUCH OF A GAP BETWEEN THOSE CHARACTERS FOR PIKACHU TO BE CONSIDERED TOP TIER.
Got it? Good.
There are many very good MKs and very good Snakes. Each win 1 major tourney and continue to do so. Then there are the other Snakes and MKs you say are "not very good" and those surely place somewhere in the upper part of tourneys occasionally. Then all of the sudden some good players with other characters begin to emerge, only a few with each. They start behind and fall further behind because there are so many of those big 2.
This means that pikachu and Tl just do not do well against those characters at high levels of play or other characters besides MK and Snake (since face it, the tournaments aren't so clogged with KM and Snake's that they are the only characters you soo)
So if all of those Snakes are in tourneys, shouldn't Snake be highly ranked in that tourney list thingy you keep referring to? It wouldn't make sense for 1 Ness to get more points than 30 Snakes. I makes sense this way but doesn't even create accurate data...unless you devide the nuber of players by the number of the other. Even better would be to take the Ness players that placed on that chart to get points and take that same number of players from the best of the Snakes on the and devide that by the number of tourneys that were ranked on the list that each went to.
The tournament data goes on the following.
The number of entrants.
The cost.
Each placement gets a certain number of points.
Look at Fox and Sonic. Fox has won more tournaments and placed better than sonic more often.
ye he is below Sonic why?
Since sonic places high in LARGE tournaments.
So the points he gains is greater because it means he has to get past a larger amount of people.
The fact you d not know ths means you have either never gone and looked at wht the rankings is composed of, or frankly ignore it.
Get it yet? I kind of doubt it, nvm if you don't. No biggy. :\
Don't know your arguments are starting to bore me.
A person by person basis means nothing? So you take the top 20 Fox and the top 20 ICs and it means something but the top 5 ICs (the ones that have come even close to his peak) and the top 5 Fox (if you can narrow it down that much) then it means nothing?
The only accurate way is the peak players. This is fact, a tier list is the best of the character not the average of the masses using said character.
If you have 1000 Fox users.
10 of them get 1st place wins consistently.
The other 990 get 2nd place wins consistently.
Where do you think Fox will go? Second or first place?
If 100 people beat MK With Yoshi 100% of the time.
And 1000 people beat MK with Yoshi only 10% of the time which do you think will create a greater influence?
you don't just hand select the best of each character, since this does not reflect the may playstyles of the character and doesn't go through on how good the character is, it only falls on how good the player is.
you never look at the few you always look at the whole of things to get an accurate picture.
Pikachu in 13th place actually means something to you? Hopefully that was just a little thing you threw in for fun. That means about as much as "Snakes bair has landing lag" in terms of making the character worse than they are.
it means a lot considering this is how well he is doing NATIONWIDE.
Its means much, much more than Snake having land lag.
That means actual capability rather than theory capability.
His match ups overall are actually possibly the best in the game including more one sided match ups in his favor than anyone else and very few against him.
I am calling you on this, proof now.
His gameplay has been developed only by few and he has great room to grow being so underused by great players.
Just because there are few does not mean the character is worse, even if tourney rankings are bad. Even if there are only a few good Pikachus and you say it's the player winning, couldn't you say the same about Snake? Yes.
No.
you have a greater variety of Snake mainers winning than you do pikachu mainers.
So if Pikachu had exactly the same number of wins as Snake (including high placement in tournaments) but less people maining him who do you think will be higher in the tier list?
Snake. It shows much more character ability than player ability.
And some Snakes aren't very good but in the masses of them they still do alright, couldn't you say the same about the not so good Pikas? Yes.
no. Cuase those not so good snakes are still doing better than the not so good pikachu's.
So a good Pika will get first everywhere they go and a good Snake will get first everywhere they go. Why is Pikachu considered barely high tier when this is the case.
Except it isn't. Now you are just blatantly lying.
If pikachu was as good as you say then every single tournament where Pikachu appears (a good number) why is he not placing as well?
if he was top tier material why does he not pop up along with the Snake and Mk's more often than he does now? Why are there other characters above him?
Is it simply because more Snakes exist so the tourney ranking results change the game so Snake is better?
no because Snake isn't the only character being used.
There is Mk G&W, DDD, Lucario etc etc.
Snake and Mk don't warp the tournament scene so badly.
The rest of your post is just fluff frankly and its to late for me to entertain it.
in anycase your arguments are flawed and starting to border on being ignorant (seriously comparing Snake's Bair to pikachu's placement? sk tsk)