Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Pr0phetic]

I think Halberd may be plausible, but it has a low ceiling doesn't it?

Make sure you ban FD, Smashville because those long, flat stages rock for DeDeDe.

 

[BacklashMarth]

What about Yoshi's Island? Its a short enough stage and the ledges keep you from worrying about being stage gimped. Im pretty sure a decent marth can make use of the platform as it is similiar to the one on Halberd.

 

[Fitty]

with marth bf is an excellent stage against bowser but if otherwise i would suggest grabbing and n-airing since he is big

 

[Xisin]

with marth bf is an excellent stage against bowser but if otherwise i would suggest grabbing and n-airing since he is big

not discussing bowser.

anyway.

go with Battlefield for king dedede it limits his ability to CG you there, avoid stages with walk offs... avoid RC. Lylat is a good choice to if you're comfortable with it.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I'd go Lylat, Battlefield, or Halberd. There's a low ceiling on Halberd, yeah, but just don't get ***** by utilt. A good Marth shouldn't really be getting hit by that, imo.

 

[Fitty]

marths **** dedede's they only have the chaingrab as an advantage.

 

[Punishment Divine]

marths **** dedede's they only have the chaingrab as an advantage.

You obviously know nothing about the matchup, so why even post...

 

[Xisin]

oh cant beleive i didnt think of this the first time but norfair is a very good choice against king dedede. lots of platforms, limited CG use, and sometimes i use the lava wall to ko the fatty penguin.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Norfair is the everyone counter pick imo, and Fitty/Jayboy221 are spamming for post count. I dunno, good DeDeDe will setup for a UTilt, inhale is one tricky move. I wouldn't risk it with Halberd.

 

[Shaya]

oh cant beleive i didnt think of this the first time but norfair is a very good choice against king dedede. lots of platforms, limited CG use, and sometimes i use the lava wall to ko the fatty penguin.

I got completely butt ***** cping Norfair against a Dedede.
Yeah who cares if he can't cg you for like 20-30%, one grab to downthrow and you're getting screwed by everything. It's pretty much impossible to kill him on the stage, he can zone from the centre platform quite well, his bair through the platforms ***** you hard.

If all a D3 thinks they can do is camp spamming waddle dees/ftilt and stays to one platform only, yeah sure its a great CP. But d3 can do smart things that really... really.. hurt... His utilt head also goes through the platforms, the platforms covering above the ledges actually makes it hard to punish/edge pressure. This post is rambling but I won't ever ever recommend CP'n Norfair against D3. Pose a situation or ask a question if you want, Norfair is baddddddd.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Some place where he is easily gimpable. I hate his recoveries. Maybe...smashville?

I agree with backlash though, i like yoshies lsland against D3

 

[Pierce7d]

. . . I come back, and you guys are talking about Yoshi's vs. D3 . . .

NO NO NO!

D3 can still chaingrab Marth on Yoshi's. Additionally, due to the slopes, you cannot safely aerial D3, because you'll ALWAYS slide into grab range. You can't edgeguard him properly, because he can upB against the wall and cancel it into the ground super low, so you have to shield, and he gets his jumps back. You also cannot knock him under the stage. Shy Guys are more likely to mess you up than him (IT DOES HAPPEN). It's hard to get back on the stage from the ledge due to the little slopes that block you from properly using all your options. The platform in the middle is NOT good for Marth, unlike other platforms. It's just too high to be really useful, while it gives D3 options in some situations. The only things I like about this stage are that you can use the middle platform for mindgames when trying to land after whiffing an UpB and that you can line up certain aerials better due to the wall, and recover very reliably. However, you can't stage spike people, so it's a negated bonus.

Don't take D3 here, lol. D3 cannot ban Lylat and Battlefield, so you're definitely taking him to one of those. Smashville is awesome. Though the platform helps his recovery more than you, it's definitely a decent platform if you know how to platform cancel well. It's short, so CG isn't a huge issue. Awesome stage-spikes. D3 also can't camp here very well, and Marth pressures SO awesome on this stage. Stage Spiking is super duper easy, and this ledge just yells "Marth, please recover". It's a simple stage, and Marth likes it a lot.

All the stages Marth likes, D3 likes too for other reasons. I have NO problems taking a D3 to Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, or Delfino, but I wouldn't recommend any of them unless you're super comfortable. Battleship Halberd is supposedly in his favor, but I always seem to **** there. I think it's good for Marth. It's usually the one counter-pick that's an upset and I end up winning. Do not play the Frigate game with D3 unless you're absolutely amazing at that stage. His UpB sucks there, but yours sucks worse. Poke Stad is meh, if you know how to camp and don't get ***** by dumb infinites like a loser.

Really, I'd go with Brinstar. The platforms here are good for Marth. LEARN THE SHINANIGANS THOUGH. D3 can auto ground his UpB on certain parts, but compared to how badly you can harass him, it doesn't matter. MBR, REMIND ME to start a discussion about Brinstar tricks. D3's Utilt kills well here, but he's fat, slow, and has no where to run. Just hop in the air and start harassing him with your speed. He can't Bair edgeguard you the same, because you've got more aerial movement, and a few tricks with your recovery options due to overhanging platforms, and the ability to rise through the stage. You can also K.O. D3 pretty early if you reserve tipper Nair or Fair (two Dancing Blades keeps the decay away), and hit him while he's far off the stage. He basically has Backthrow and Bair to work with. Your whole moveset is viable on this stage. Learn it and use it.

EDIT: I didn't mention Norfair, PS2, Japes, Corneria, or Luigi's, because those stages are usually banned in my region. We have a strict stage list.

 

[Xisin]

All the stages Marth likes, D3 likes too for other reasons. I have NO problems taking a D3 to Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, or Delfino, but I wouldn't recommend any of them unless you're super comfortable. Battleship Halberd is supposedly in his favor, but I always seem to **** there. I think it's good for Marth. It's usually the one counter-pick that's an upset and I end up winning. Do not play the Frigate game with D3 unless you're absolutely amazing at that stage. His UpB sucks there, but yours sucks worse. Poke Stad is meh, if you know how to camp and don't get ***** by dumb infinites like a loser.

i have to disagree with each and every one of those, reasoning is castle siege part 2, i dont like having a risk to be cg complety off the stage for a ko, the same reasoning applies at RC except dedede can fly around while you havea sub par up b about getting back onto some of the platforms there, and there are walk off points. I hate RC in general for marth tbh. delfino has a walk off or two and the stages floats around, Theres some nasty tricks a king dedede can do while the stage takes off to marth and if your not on the stage to harass d3 hes free to use his really good vertical recovery to get back up while you die.

to shaya never really cp'd norfair against dedede but it looked good on paper at the time.

but yeah pierce completley disagree with those three stages.. any reason as to why you like them so well? I know you said your comfortable there but man whats the advantage? actually better question - whats the advantage of going here over other cps?

 

[Pierce7d]

i have to disagree with each and every one of those, reasoning is castle siege part 2, i dont like having a risk to be cg complety off the stage for a ko, the same reasoning applies at RC except dedede can fly around while you havea sub par up b about getting back onto some of the platforms there, and there are walk off points. I hate RC in general for marth tbh. delfino has a walk off or two and the stages floats around, Theres some nasty tricks a king dedede can do while the stage takes off to marth and if your not on the stage to harass d3 hes free to use his really good vertical recovery to get back up while you die.

to shaya never really cp'd norfair against dedede but it looked good on paper at the time.

but yeah pierce completley disagree with those three stages.. any reason as to why you like them so well? I know you said your comfortable there but man whats the advantage? actually better question - whats the advantage of going here over other cps?

There is none. I told you that I do NOT recommend those three stages, and that they are just three stages I'm comfortable on.

Castle Siege- Part 1 Marth ***** D3
Part 2, play smart, camp platforms
Part 3, virtually neutral, use the small hill and the tilting to your advantage. Marth likes to fight uphill against D3, because it's safer to slide away, and we poke easier with Fair this way. If fighting downhill, rely on dtilt more.

Delfino - Wow, really? There are a few places where you shouldn't get grabbed. I generally just outplay my opponent's here. Perhaps I'll upload a match or something. I realized this is tricker to explain than I thought, so I won't try.

Rainbow Cruise - It's mainly an air fight, which Marth SHOULD win if you know what you're doing, and you watch your spacing, and don't get ***** by Bair, which you shouldn't. D3 has to jump around a lot, and is open JUST because he has to move. Plus, he loses chaingrab here.

I already explained why I would probably go Brinstar, and I don't think I need to explain Lylat and Battlefield to you.

 

[∫unk]

pierce doesn't post very often but when he does it's gfg

i know bardull goes brinstar... i go castle siege just cause i'm comfortable on it but i should probably go brinstar too (assuming battlefield is banned)

i generally don't like lylat for people tha get edgeguarded well by marth (snake, ddd) cause it's hard to space how much room offstage you have to work with when the thing can be tilting away from you at any moment

 

[Shaya]

Btw to properly describe Norfair.

Norfair allows D3 to constantly go for his off edge/gimping game INSTANTLY from just one grab. Marth has options for the CG, but King D3 has a GREAT MANY THINGS when it comes to edge guarding. Norfair allows D3 to easily **** you with camping/zoning and then if you get grabbed goes straight into an edge guarding situation which ... sucks.

 

[Xisin]

aye, i was just asking you to clarify why, and to avoid confusion on what the better cps are - not what people like to do, simply just want whats best to go, brinstar never struck me so i will try that out. But thats what this thread is for, and thats finding things out. I'll try to upload a fun vid of me vs a d3 at lylat.

 

[Hype]

Norfair is good.

Btw to properly describe Norfair.

Norfair allows D3 to constantly go for his off edge/gimping game INSTANTLY from just one grab.

D3 can CG to the edge and Throw you off on any stage, From just one grab .

Marth has options for the CG, but King D3 has a GREAT MANY THINGS when it comes to edge guarding. Norfair allows D3 to easily **** you with camping/zoning and then if you get grabbed goes straight into an edge guarding situation which ... sucks.

If anything marth should have more options when recovering and it should be harder for D3 to get a grab on this stage.

 

[Shaya]

Norfair is good.

D3 can CG to the edge and Throw you off on any stage, From just one grab .

Smart stage placement can have you avoid such situations, dthrow off the edge has you coming from below = danger of bair. Him using his other methods like fthrow/bthrow at least allows you more options. On Norfair whereever you are, one grab = forced to attempt recovery from below.

If anything marth should have more options when recovering and it should be harder for D3 to get a grab on this stage.

When D3's entire body and hence range pretty much covers an entire platform on Norfair, and when D3 has an amazing spot dodge, and when his bair pretty much makes his entire body a hitbox that covers said platform and general Marth strategy against bair is to avoid it and then punish but lols he has not too many places to go... well. well...

If D3 is at the lowest platform he can easily and effectively zone all 3 of those lower platforms. He has the ability to get to lower platform a lot easier than you do if you're the one trying to protect the zoning. The stage plays into D3's favour for his weight (he can't die), his range (mentioned above) and the ease of taking Marth off the platforms in a way that is not advantageous to Marth at all.

When you attempt to compare Norfair to Lylat/Battlefield the choice is obvious. Marth cannot play safely against D3 on Norfair, while he can on Lylat/BF. Norfair is good for Marth because of the platform type **** that Marth can do, but as I already said, D3 just controls. Much better than Marth can explicitly on this stage. Yes, Marth can do the opposite to D3 and be advantageous throughout the match, but two players of equal skill and knowledge of Norfair I believe would leave D3 as the overall victor.

When it comes to recovery, D3's up b gives him a lot of options to avoid punishment from you, he can land (in general) on any 3 given platforms; whilst Marth is generally always looking at just one platform to grab onto.

If Battlefield was 65:35 for Marth, Norfair would be something like 45:55-40:60. Specifically in this matchup I think Lylat would yield a similar ratio to BF.

 

[Tero.]

Smart stage placement can have you avoid such situations, dthrow off the edge has you coming from below = danger of bair. Him using his other methods like fthrow/bthrow at least allows you more options. On Norfair whereever you are, one grab = forced to attempt recovery from below.

You still have many places to recover on Norfair, so it's not that hard to recover even if you come from below.
DDD can still gimp you but not worse than on any other stage.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, how good is rising instant FHDair landing onto the next platform up? I can't remember if it finishes in time. If so, I might disagree with Norfair not being good.

Course, I never pick that stage. It has decided matches for me in really dumb ways. Lava streams from the background can unavoidably K.O. you if you were already in the air, if they come in the right formations, since you can't airdodge them.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Okay you all have convinced me.

I would go to brinstar just because its my favorite stage to play marth.

...at least...in melee.

But seriously, I you want to pick any stage that can damage you (or your opposittion) and avoid an instant chaingrab > aerial, i say pick brinstar. You guys are the experts though....

 

[Shaya]

You still have many places to recover on Norfair, so it's not that hard to recover even if you come from below.
DDD can still gimp you but not worse than on any other stage.

How?

Marth is forced to recover towards only one ledge, or risk being owned during his lag time at BEST with recovery to two ledges.

You should be smarter than this when discussing stages though "not worse than any other stage" is a load of crap. What makes it extremely dangerous to attempt to gimp Marth? It's called Dolphin Slash, and every other stage in the game (I can't think of any other) [edit: actually stages like Halberd and Delfino] will have the opponent getting STAGE SPIKED if they make a mistake. All of a sudden the risk of trying to edgeguard Marth on Norfair is completely removed. Unlike MK's Shuttle Loop which is prime rapage still.

One bair off a platform has Marth dead, (perhaps not including if it was off the highest platforms), while the reverse situation is not true. D3's Up B vertical and horizontal recovery is absoloutely insane compared, and he pretty much won't die from any gimp attempt you make.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, I'm trying to run through "Theory Fighter Brawl" in my head. Marth can FF or DI away quite reasonably, and should have no reason to waste his second jump, meaning that between Fair (or Bair) and counter, he should reliably recover back to the stage. He CAN bypass a ledge and go for a lower one, or reverse UpB to grab a higher one (though this won't sweetspot, it's safe if done correctly and at the right time).

I dunno. I don't get any exp on this stage, so I can't speak well on it. I just don't envision getting gimped here, and I see the platforms letting me do fun combos.

 

[Darxmarth23]

analogy

On norfair i would play as defensive as i can be. There are too many ways that d3 can rack up damage in the same way marth can on battlefield.

so im guessing...

Norfair is to D3, as battle field is to Marth

 

[Shaya]

It has its strengths. Norfair used to be one of my favourite CP stages. But I havn't won on Norfair consistantly, in a long time. When I'm vsing ROBs, MKs, Pits, Snakes, G&Ws and D3s predominatly the only ones I am enjoying the potential advantage over is Snake and G&W. Oh, and Falco (but I vs Wolf about 10x more often than Falco so eh).

There are just much better options.

Pierce:
You get dthrown/hit (whatever) off a platform and you're just below to the (left) of said platform. A DS now would have you recovering high, a ff/di away is possible to intercept, and it's not like there's much risk in trying to.

Let's say you were in the middle line of platforms, now to avoid rapage you could jump and go for a higher or lower platform. But let's say you didn't. You're holding onto the ledge and now you could use the jump to go to another, true. But Okay, you try to get up from a ledge and you can't use a jump unless you're on the highest platform, otherwise D3 can safely intercept with a jump fair/bair or utilt. So you're restricted to either moving platforms or getting up normally. Restriction of options is bad.
My "Theory Fighter Brawl" tells me that while the reverse situation can also occur (ledge traps), why not go for a safer Marth stage, why pick a stage where the same tricks will most likely bid you ill more than yours will against them?

Of course, Norfair is a stage Marth can pretty run out the clock against D3. Taking that into consideration it isn't such a horrible stage if you're the one with the stock ahead. But D3 has the combatant advantage. Should we promote Marth just fairing D3 once then running away the rest of the match?
Reply: While you can run away to stall on ledges, you can only go up or down, and the character closest to the centre has the advantage. If you're going for this tactic D3 just needs to force you upwards (taking control of the platform hes on and the one below him) and voila, you're under pressure. And you will most likely eventually FALL.

Edit 2:
I wouldn't exactly say D3's battlefield is Norfair. Marth has fine things he can do on Norfair as well. I'm not exactly bringing those points up that much here. D3 would get obliterated by a lot of the tourney chars on Norfair as well, D3 would not have advantage on Norfair against many in the cast. It's just 'this' match up we're discussing.

Battlefield for Marth is great against every character, it's a superb counter pick. A D3 will not be CP'ing Norfair against anybody (most likely), that doesn't mean he doesn't have a minor or overall advantage.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Shaya has a point. there are safer stages out there for us to go against D3.

But the problem is is the CG. It out ranges a lot of things that marth has in his arsenal. A place where D3 can't CG will most likley not be a neetral stage. Marth does well on Neutral stages to begin with.

 

[Tero.]

How?.

Let's say they grab you on the lowest plattform, dthrow you. Now you double jump and sweetspot a ledge on one of the higher plattforms, where is the problem ? Chances that they can actually eg you are small.

 

[Shaya]

Let's say they grab you on the lowest plattform, dthrow you. Now you double jump and sweetspot a ledge on one of the higher plattforms, where is the problem ? Chances that they can actually eg you are small.

Fundamental problem. Marth is weak from below him. I also cover the ledge camping thing in my last post.

If you are dthrown off the ledge you also only have one jump. And the time it takes you to sweetspot a higher ledge after being below is ample for D3 to intercept WITHOUT RISK. Are you bothering to read things?

 

[Hype]

Eh, how good is rising instant FHDair landing onto the next platform up? I can't remember if it finishes in time. If so, I might disagree with Norfair not being good.

I know that works on the BF platforms.

 

[Tero.]

Fundamental problem. Marth is weak from below him. I also cover the ledge camping thing in my last post.

If you are dthrown off the ledge you also only have one jump. And the time it takes you to sweetspot a higher ledge after being below is ample for D3 to intercept WITHOUT RISK. Are you bothering to read things?

Yeah i bother reading things.
It just sounded as if it would be easy to eg Marth as DDD on Norfair that's why i said it is in fact not.
(I don't think that Norfair would be Marths best counterpick i just wanted to say the stuff written above)
Also my english is not even near perfect, sorry if i missunderstood something.

 

[Shaya]

Knowledge/discussion is fantastic. We don't still live in the Emblem Lord era of secrets and relying on trust of "DTILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" <3 (sarcasms).

Sorry if I came off as rude Tero; I get heated easily in discussion and it seems to always end in me yelling at someone for comprehension who's first language isn't English ;_;.

As I've said, Marth can do a lot of good things to D3 on Norfair. A lot of the things D3 can do, Marth can also. However I give the advantage to D3 for these reasons:
Better zoning to cover platforms (Marth can realistically only zone two platforms at once, or maybe three if they're all above him - however its restricted to only one side of the stage - D3 can zone right, left and centre)
Better recovery in this environment
Risk from D3's actions is quite low.
Stage plays in D3's favour for edge guarding due to points above.
And also the weight thing and size of the stage.

 

[Hype]

I understand that you wont be getting stage spikes, but I still think Marth will have a better chance recovering on norfair. After a Dthrow Marth can recover to any of the 3 ledges right? The lava is also something that can prevent you from getting gimped.

 

[Hype]

Regarding banning: Ban Green Greens if it's legal (probebly wont be), Pokemon stadium 1, Delfino, Castle seige.

 

[Darxmarth23]

This shows quite a lot of similarities between Marth and D3.

They both do well on neutral stages, and they both can abuse platforms.

About Norfair: I suppose its where marth and D3 are on the stage. A good marth would stay lower right? Where would D3 want to be?

 

[Remzi]

I think Norfair is OK, it's not great but it's one of the better stages to take D3. One major obvious reason being that you are much less susceptible to being chaingrabbed. Besides that, you can do some nice stuff with the platforms IIRC, D3 can also but Marth can do more with them. Having multiple ledges to recover to is nice as well. I'll say it now, I don't have the attention span to read the massive debate that occurred, but I don't see how it would be easy to get gimped here. Again though, the best are definitely BF and Lylat.

 

[Remzi]

ok, lets talk bans now.

i'm thinking FD is an obvious one. Luigi's is pretty gay against him as well.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Ban... I guess FD, PS1 isn't so bad since the stage shifts give you advantages and aren't flat... Delfino I'd say no since it's a great Marth stage... Castle Siege maybe... I'd say no though since he can only CG you on the second one off the side for a kill, but if you aren't dead before them you are probably over the percent where he can CG you, so it isn't that bad. You can also just stick to the platforms... So yeah, final answer is FD.

 

[Nexus Bond]

Ban... I guess FD, PS1 isn't so bad since the stage shifts give you advantages and aren't flat... Delfino I'd say no since it's a great Marth stage... Castle Siege maybe... I'd say no though since he can only CG you on the second one off the side for a kill, but if you aren't dead before them you are probably over the percent where he can CG you, so it isn't that bad. You can also just stick to the platforms... So yeah, final answer is FD.

Many places on Castle Siege are walk-offs, and Dedede's dthrow has set knockback, so Marth wouldn't be able to escape even at high percent. FD is also pretty bad, but it's better than a guaranteed kill from a walk-off. So, Castle Siege gets my vote.

 

[Pierce7d]

If you are not extremely experienced on Castle Siege, I would ban it. Otherwise, I'd ban FD.

Also, Shaya, if you get Dthrown, you should autosnap to the ledge to avoid ANY follow ups. It even gets you out of Dthrow to Ftilt combo.