Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Megavitamins]

Why SV? Wolf doesn't **** there, and neither does marf.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Why SV? Wolf doesn't **** there, and neither does marf.

Bengals said if your not comfortable, hence which would give the Wolf a little of an advantage since your on common ground with that stage.

its 12:30 and im lurking the boards, im not tired at all -_-

 

[~ Gheb ~]

FD isn't a bad stage for Wolf, at least against Marth. Wolf has a weight advantage and FD is a large stage and from what I've heard Marth has troubles landing safely a KO move? Good look trying to KO a camping Wolf who spaces with bairs on a stage like that. He's extremely hard to land a ceiling KO on and only tipper Nair is really dangerous for Wolf.
It's also not true that Wolf is auto-screwed when he recovers and lol @ saying that Marths recovery is more flexible. Marth has exactly one recovery move which is extremely telegraphed and predictable. I'm not saying that Marths recovery sucks so much that it will greatly influence the result of the match-up on FD but neither does Wolfs. His sideB alone has 3 variations Wolf can choose from and as long as he doesn't recover from below - Marth can't put him in such a gimpable position anyways - he'll never use upB. Wolf also has plenty of room for dthrow tech chases and platforms usually help Marth more than most other characters so I really don't know why you think FD is such a great stage against Wolf.

Lylat and Pokémon Stadium 1 are the best stages probably though I don't think PS1 is a bad as Lylat is. Lylat is really bad for Wolf but you shouldn't expect to fight him there since he'll always ban it. The low platforms are too good for Marth and Wolfs recovery sucks pretty hard here. Lylat is Wolfs first stage and you should always take him there if the player doesn't ban it.
PS1 is the most likely counterpick stage to remain and I'd say it's the best choice after Lylat. The ledges are weird and Wolf will miss them quite often. Plenty of platforms help Marth as usual and if you get him at a wall you can dtilt lock him.

Ban Halberd because a simple juggle trap can **** Marth. Wolfs utilt and fair become a lot more dangerous KO moves on Halberd because the ceiling is so low. If Marth gets juggle trapped Wolf can also punish airdodges with his fair which is deadly. There'll be plenty of KO opportunities for Wolf and his recovery - especially his upB - is actually quite good on Halbed since he can also recover from below the stage.

Brinstar is similar although I don't know in which area it's banned ... some places seem to have different points of view considering stages (MW even has port town as CP lol) but I'm sure most places have Brinstar as CPs...it's a nice stage for Wolf for similar reasons as Halberd is. Halberd is still better than Brinstar though because the sides aren't as long which kinda helps Marth. Against Wolf you should not expect FD to be a CP stage. Take him either to Lylat or Pokémon Stadium 1 depending on which stage he bans. Ban Halbed or Brinstar ... many people are unconfortable on Brinstar so I guess it's up to personal preferance...

 

[Cervial]

Marth has exactly one recovery move which is extremely telegraphed and predictable.

I suppose Neutral B was removed from the game . . . ?

 

[Alterhalo]

Personally I like FD the lip screws wolf over alot I love it

 

[Megavitamins]

FD isn't a bad stage for Wolf, at least against Marth. Wolf has a weight advantage and FD is a large stage and from what I've heard Marth has troubles landing safely a KO move? Good look trying to KO a camping Wolf who spaces with bairs on a stage like that. He's extremely hard to land a ceiling KO on and only tipper Nair is really dangerous for Wolf.
It's also not true that Wolf is auto-screwed when he recovers and lol @ saying that Marths recovery is more flexible. Marth has exactly one recovery move which is extremely telegraphed and predictable. I'm not saying that Marths recovery sucks so much that it will greatly influence the result of the match-up on FD but neither does Wolfs. His sideB alone has 3 variations Wolf can choose from and as long as he doesn't recover from below - Marth can't put him in such a gimpable position anyways - he'll never use upB. Wolf also has plenty of room for dthrow tech chases and platforms usually help Marth more than most other characters so I really don't know why you think FD is such a great stage against Wolf.

I don't think ANY wolf player will be able to consistently alter his side-b's perfectly, considering you have a one frame window to input b for each different one. D=

 

[Punishment Divine]

Lylat is a great stage to take him to. People need to learn it's just Battlefield where you can gimp people harder so long as you're not stupid and don't SD yourself.

PS1 was mentioned and I agree with that as well. The lip can ghey him and you can avoid his lasers with those well placed platforms and the terrain. I usually don't pick this stage with Marth, though, but if you're comfy with it, by all means.

Halberd could work in theory. As could Norfair.

I would probably ban Yoshi's Island Brawl in this matchup. I hate that stage in general and from what I can tell Wolf is pretty good there. This is a matchup where he doesn't really have an advantage on you anywhere he takes you so pretty much ban where you hate from there/ Evidently Brinstar is bad from Gheb's post (although I disagree with the Halberd part) so you could ban that.

 

[Shaya]

Halberd is a lot similar to Yoshi's Island, except for the flying bit which can screw over Wolf's recovery. The long platform in the middle can be a great camping ground for Wolf that Marth can struggle to get through.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Idk, as Wolf, the only tournament stage i'm not 100% comfortable on is maybe RC and possibly FO to a lesser extent.

 

[Remzi]

needs moar counterpicks.

Can we agree to CP Lylat and ban YI? I also think RC is good, not so sure though...

 

[Pr0phetic]

Umm PS1? He literally gimps himself =P

 

[Freezewish]

needs moar counterpicks.

Can we agree to CP Lylat and ban YI? I also think RC is good, not so sure though...

Sounds about right.

Cp: Lylat, PS1

Ban: Yoshi's Island, FD(?)

As far as RC goes, eh personally, I'm not a big fan of this stage and tend to avoid it altogether. Dtilt lock and gimps during stage movements are alright I suppose, but I honestly dont think it's worth mentioning in this particular matchup.

 

[BBoyindo]

Yes, i agree with CP'ing PS1 and Lylat cruise, easy gimps. And banning Yoshi's. I'm not so sure about FD though, only if you're good on Yoshi's i would ban it.
Rainbow cruise isn't even legal in Holland lol.
Ok lets go a bit faster from now on.

 

[Shaya]

No reason to ban FD; Wolf doesn't have the laser and side b qualities of Falco.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I figure fighting on a stage w/platforms > fighting on a stage w/o platforms. It SERIOUSLY reduces the utility of wolf's lazer spam. However, Yoshi's is a no-go and it has something to do with those freakin slopes. Probably because wolf has no ledge to gimp himself under and because he slides a bit further out of his animations due to slopeage. (might be my imagination)

 

[ZHMT]

I dont mind his lasers at all really. They are easy to PS due to speed and they have the least range of all the spacies.

 

[feardragon64]

Not that it's my place anymore but Bengalz your thread died D=

 

[Remzi]

Feeeeaaaaarrrr, whats up man. We miss ya, come back. I'll update now and move on to another character.

 

[Freezewish]

Yay updates.

Now for Diddy:

Bans: FD(duh), Smashville, Halberd

Cps: Battlefield, Lylat, Rainbow Cruise

The less platforms there are the better the stage for Diddy, which is why i have Halberd as a third option. Diddy operates here much like he does on SV. Flat stage with a single platform, allowing diddy to gain tons of momentum, and gives him plenty of room for his banana nonsense.

Diddy cant get anything going on RC with his naners, while we have numerous gimping possibilities and a dtilt lock on the boat.

Also welcome back Fear. We missed you man. ^_^

 

[takeurlife2]

against diddy, i bring him to brinstar if i really get desperate.

also, dont underestimate diddy on rainbow cruise. He can get some absolutely silly kills there. Ask the diddy boards about the little monkey and RC before passing judgement on this.

 

[BBoyindo]

I usually cp norfair against diddy, he can't play there for **** Ban FD of course.

 

[Remzi]

against diddy, i bring him to brinstar if i really get desperate.

also, dont underestimate diddy on rainbow cruise. He can get some absolutely silly kills there. Ask the diddy boards about the little monkey and RC before passing judgement on this.

Lmao, yea I used to take diddys to RC but they manage to do quite well there somehow. BF is the ideal stage for dealing with Diddy IMO. FD is obviously the worst.

 

[feardragon64]

Feeeeaaaaarrrr, whats up man. We miss ya, come back. I'll update now and move on to another character.

lol I never had much to contribute anyways =b. Whatever I said was just a repeat of someone else saying it.

Lmao, yea I used to take diddys to RC but they manage to do quite well there somehow. BF is the ideal stage for dealing with Diddy IMO. FD is obviously the worst.

Just to make this post on topic, I guess it would make sense to either go bf, norfair, RC, and lylat.
BF: Marth's best stage and platforms screw with Diddy's nanas a bit and make it harder to set up. Also the stage is fairly short so nana throw's don't last forever >>.

Norfair: It's just a bunch of platforms. Most likely diddy won't get more than one nana throw on you, but he can still use them for follow ups. Just keep moving and don't let nanas get in the way.

RC: Bananas are almost non-existent. I guess space properly and you should do fine.(post a vid in vid critique thread against a diddy on RC bengalz?)

Lylat: Similar to BF. Tilting can also sometimes screw with the throws themselves. Platforms are super fun for Marth. Also, edges don't go out very far so Diddy can't abuse his side+b and up+b recovery. That and he can't edgeguard with peanut popgun nearly as well.

Ban: final d. I don't need to explain why since everyone knows it.

 

[Punishment Divine]

lol I never had much to contribute anyways =b. Whatever I said was just a repeat of someone else saying it.


Just to make this post on topic, I guess it would make sense to either go bf, norfair, RC, and lylat.
BF: Marth's best stage and platforms screw with Diddy's nanas a bit and make it harder to set up. Also the stage is fairly short so nana throw's don't last forever >>.

Norfair: It's just a bunch of platforms. Most likely diddy won't get more than one nana throw on you, but he can still use them for follow ups. Just keep moving and don't let nanas get in the way.

RC: Bananas are almost non-existent. I guess space properly and you should do fine.(post a vid in vid critique thread against a diddy on RC bengalz?)

Lylat: Similar to BF. Tilting can also sometimes screw with the throws themselves. Platforms are super fun for Marth. Also, edges don't go out very far so Diddy can't abuse his side+b and up+b recovery. That and he can't edgeguard with peanut popgun nearly as well.

Ban: final d. I don't need to explain why since everyone knows it.

You should stick around mah d00

I would prefer Lylat over Battlefield here. You can still camp the platforms and gaying him is a lot easier

 

[BBoyindo]

Okay lets not let this thread die, again. Ok so for Diddy Kong we have
Ban: Final destination, Smashville
CP: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, BattleField, Lylat
You all agree? Now lets move on with another character.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

^ =0 but on battlefield diddy is a threat. he's got his high-priority side B kick option as well as throwing bananas onto whatever platform he chooses and a good wavetossing stage. his fair does well here too.

 

[BBoyindo]

^ =0 but on battlefield diddy is a threat. he's got his high-priority side B kick option as well as throwing bananas onto whatever platform he chooses and a good wavetossing stage. his fair does well here too.

1. Marth owns on BF
2. Throwing naners on a platform is not usefull to diddy in any way, i don't know why that should be bad. It is easier for Marth to get a naner from a platform then taking it from the ground.
3. High priority side-B kick options? Please explain.
4. His fair does well on BF? Why? Please explain.

Seriously this stage is quite good vs Diddy if you are not comfortable on the other CP's. Your post made no sense at all. Wavetossinglol

 

[Jugz]

Okay lets not let this thread die, again. Ok so for Diddy Kong we have
Ban: Final destination, Smashville
CP: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, BattleField, Lylat
You all agree? Now lets move on with another character.

this is perfect

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

1. Marth owns on BF
2. Throwing naners on a platform is not usefull to diddy in any way, i don't know why that should be bad. It is easier for Marth to get a naner from a platform then taking it from the ground.
3. High priority side-B kick options? Please explain.
4. His fair does well on BF? Why? Please explain.

Seriously this stage is quite good vs Diddy if you are not comfortable on the other CP's. Your post made no sense at all. Wavetossinglol

His fair does well on bf in that it is his 3rd best K0 move and its easy to pull off from or to any platform.
High priority side-B kick is where you press >B+B, he then unleashes a high priority (you know what that means, right -.-) flying kick that covers the better half of the course. Throwing bananas onto the platforms can ruin descending (need a definition?) DB setups.

 

[Remzi]

"Descending DB setups" should be used scarcely to begin with, if I'm understanding you correctly. BF definitely benefits Marth for more than it does Diddy. Having the bananas on the ground is far worse than on platforms. Especially considering how easy it is for Marth to pick them up from a platform.

I'm gonna put a (?) by Rainbow Cruise, not so sure about that one. The rest looks accurate.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

guess ur right ^,^
zero suit... i hate fighting her with her stupid stun moves.
BF is a good stage for her (at least in my experience) one cause her ^B/USmash ***** when you're on the platforms and its close quarters is great for her b and side b, not to mention that she can recover from almost anywhere on the stage.

 

[Schwaumlaut]

I like taking Zamus to Frigate Orpheon; for half the time, there's only one spot for her tether. I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander, but I haven't found myself getting gimped that often by the not-ledge. Also, you can dtilt lock down there, which is fun, too. On the other stage configuration, you can easily duck under her Paralyzer, and the dip can also screw up her side b and grabs. Zamus is always annoying for me because you can't use your platform tricks as easily, thanks to usmash.

 

[Hype]

Frigate is your best CP, I also like delphino in this match up.

Ban rainbow cruise, ZSS excels here.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Frigate is your best CP, I also like delphino in this match up.

Ban rainbow cruise, ZSS excels here.

Ja, I'm with Frigate Orpheon here. I like Delphino Plaza, but I would still prefer Orpheon.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

yup. orpheon is def the best choice here. no grapple, locking, easy to shut down her main killers and NO STUN GUN yayyyyy
someone get cba in here, she'll tell us whats worst for her ^,^

 

[BBoyindo]

I wouldn't take her to Norfair either. Lots of tether space, long ranged attacks that can hit through the platforms, etc. I don't know about RC though, it might be a better choice for a ban.

 

[Remzi]

I like Frigate, SV, and maybe BF against her.

Norfair is amazing for her, so thats definitely a ban.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I like Frigate, SV, and maybe BF against her.

Norfair is amazing for her, so thats definitely a ban.

So ban: Norfair, RC.
CP: Frigate, Bf, and Smashville?

Have we reached a verdict?

 

[Freezewish]

I'd add Lylat to the list of bans. I hear she's pretty beastly there.

Norfair sounds good to ban against her aswell.

Not to sure about anything else outside of what has already been said.

EDit: Darx, CPs should look something like:

BF, FO, Delfino.

Smashville is the most neutral stage in the game. I dont see any real advantages in counterpicking it against her. Someone help me out. =/

First choice as a CP may be Frigate seeing as how the lack of a ledge screws her tether recovery.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I just went to the ZSS boards and saw what they think their best stages are: Norfair, Brinstar, Delfino(wtf), and wuigis mansion.

Hope that helps.