Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Remzi]

Ok onto ROB.

I never really know what to CP against ROB, lol, so I just end up going BF. It seems like that would be the best option, maybe SV.

Definitely ban RC.

 

[Freezewish]

Lylat gives you stage control similar to Bf vs ROB so i would suggest that.

What about Delfino vs ROB?I've had some success vs him there but i dont know if it's a good stage vs him or im just comfortable there.

Ban frigate. And i would avoid FD. Too much room for ROB to camp.

 

[clowsui]

Lylat gives him too many options, gyro is so broken on that stage -_-; I hate Lylat vs. ROB simply because zoning with Gyro + Laser is TOO easy plus setting up ledge traps is difficult.

Delfino is TERRIBLE against ROB, too much crap he can do here lol. He can just about do ANYTHING to you from under the platform and ledge camping is too easy here. Walkoffs make laser and gyro gimps too easy, water means that you eat 2-3 lasers unless you're good at getting out...stage layouts make it easy for him to camp...it's just a dumb stage to play against even aggressive ROBs.

Yeah banning Frigate and avoiding FD is a good idea. Going Battlefield is a good idea. Pipes if it's not banned is also a good idea, camping is very difficult for ROB on here. ROB is good on a lot of stages...just pick the ones you're the most comfy with :/ Actually Brinstar is a good idea against ROB, OS says it sucks for ROB a lot? o_o

 

[Remzi]

Hmm, Brinstar actually sounds like it might be good. And scratch what I said about RC, Frigate is definitely worse IMO.

 

[Jugz]

A crew member of mine plays R.O.B and at times he is very tough. Though you defiantly want to avoid lylatt, delfino, final, yoshi's as for counter picks. The battlefield style platforms do not really add much advantage and if you can get ROB above you it gives you the best chance. I also like castle siege vs him all but the last part are favorable.

 

[Darxmarth23]

ROB is way to plain to play against. To me he seems like a control character.


I would just BF him all the way. Ban stages that change quite a lot.


Oh and BRZ i support your sig all the way. Crappy times ppl, crappy times.

 

[takeurlife2]

i just noticed how my input on snake wasnt posted lol

some snakes THRIVE on BF.

 

[Nefarious B]

Against ROB Brinstar is a good pick for Marth. The close blast zones hurt his recovery, gyro gets stuck in the lava for a long while, and the stringy platform attachments limit the gyro usage too. However, I think if you break the middle of Brinstar open there are no ledge grabs (correct me if I'm wrong). I'd probably look for an openning and break it open and knock Marth down there.

Battlefield is a more straight forward choice, ROB does okay there but as long as you get under him you'll beat him every time, but he'll beat you from below as well. Really just depends on who is the better player here imo.

 

[Remzi]

i just noticed how my input on snake wasnt posted lol

some snakes THRIVE on BF.

i'm saving that for the summaries that i'll eventually do

 

[Bomber7]

Rob's revocery punishable via Dsmash.

 

[Freezewish]

Ok bengals lets not let this useful topic die.

So far for Rob we have:

Cp: Battlefield, Smashville, Brinstar(?), Norfair(?)
Ban: RC, frigate, Delfino(?)

Lets move on with this discussion.

Falco or Gnw next?

 

[BBoyindo]

i'd say falco

 

[Remzi]

I'll update in a minute. next will be DK.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Ban Japes vs. DK, he is a beast there. I'd CP frigate but IDK. Or like anywhere that messes up his recovery and has far away boundaries.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I like the platform **** on BF, but I can't say much due to inexperience.

 

[Darxmarth23]

FD is fun. Abusing d-tilt when DK is off the edge *****.

 

[Freezewish]

Ban Brinstar vs Dk. He's very good there. Its even easier for him to get kills here than usual, and he can zone you out easier with his tilts and Down-b.

Go battlefield. Its your best stage, use it.
But Dk is good on Battlefield also so you have to keep control of the stage or marth wont be a very happy prince/princess.

I dont like FD out of fear of being cargo spiked under the lip and since the stage is larger than other common stages it makes it harder to kill off the"i live to 160+% easily unless you tipper me" monkey. But the lip works against DK also if they mess up on their recovery. I guess this is personal preferance but I wouldnt.

I say Deflino is our best bet vs DK. Dtilt locks, walk offs for early kills, platforms for control, and water to spike him in all work against DK.

 

[Nefarious B]

Remember DK can cargo throw you off walkoffs for super easy kills as well, for that reason alone I'd think twice about Delfino

 

[BBoyindo]

And spiking in the water...i think DK has a bigger advantage with his long lasting dair and as substitute fair then marth's dair which only spikes at the tip.

Oh and ban japes.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Guys seriously if you don't ban Japes you're going to lose against DK cuz it' amazing for him and bad for you.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

As a CP, what about Halberd? You have platforms, and can't be cargo spiked for majority of the time.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I like halberd.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Halberd sounds good. I'm going to use that from now on.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Any thing that lets you get DK off stage easier is good IMO. Anything Flat. His recovery is an easy spike.

 

[Freezewish]

Any thing that lets you get DK off stage easier is good IMO. Anything Flat. His recovery is an easy spike.

Ehh going for a spike on DK's recovery isnt the safest(or smartest) option. Just counter or Bair him instead.

Also i agree with Halberd vs DK. Just stupid stage interferences can be annoying but manageable.

 

[ZHMT]

Halberd is probably the best CP, just agreeing here.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I have a good idea?! This is not supposed to happen people!

 

[Punishment Divine]

Go Halberd, Smashville, Stadium 1. Don't auto go Battlefield because DK ***** there too. On the same note you shouldn't get disgruntled if they take you there cause you **** there too.

Ban Brinstar, Delfino, Japes shouldnt be legal anymore soooo....yeahhh lol Talk to your TO bout that.

 

[ZHMT]

Whats wrong with Delfino?

 

[BBoyindo]

Whats wrong with Delfino?

Walk off's where he can cargo throw you off.
I believe he has quite some wall locks.
Water is good for him to get an easy spike.
Some others things as well, but that alone is enough.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Going to halberd and overusing d-tilt as an onstage edgegaurd and then going for the gimp is an easy win. In halberd he is bound to get one of the lips, or simply go under the stage.

One of the reasons Halberd is the best CP.

 

[Remzi]

Ok, edited. Onto Wolf.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm going to be serious about this.

Really, believe it.

Final Destination.

Think about it. Both of you have equal footing in terms of pressure tactics and spacing, but who has a more flexible recovery and actual post-recovery momentum? Marth of course.

He can wavebounce DB1, DB1 also gives him a slight vertical boost after a DJ, he has SB for adding horizontal momentum, and Dolphin Slash can go straight up or pivot slightly to the sides. If you're only stuck in a part of the lip, you can DI into the sweetspot and live.

Wolf can only second jump, use Up+B, or Side-B/phantasm cancel/semi-scar. His Up+B is very limited in flexibility, his Side-B is linear and dependent on his relative positioning more so than his other options. Semi-scarring is risky since it's done by rejecting the sweetspot, meaning they can accidentally fall into the lip instead of Side-B-ing onto the stage.

Phantasm cancel has great distance on it but forces Wolf to have to start high up, meaning it does little to save him when he has to recovery low and close to the stage.

Pokemon Stadium 1 is fine too.

So is Lylat. Both of you just LOVE platforms AND MOVING STAGES! ^_~

Seriously, Lylat. Just replace FD w/ Lylat in my explanation.

 

[C.J.]

I love taking Wolf to PS1. The edges screw him more than almost any other level and on the "earth" one you have a dtilt lock on him. Lylat is always good too. You have your platforms to abuse and the tilting stage will **** his recovery. His main damaging move, bair, is also pretty much useless here as well. Plus, the stage getting in front of his lasers never hurts.

I would say ban Brinstar against him. The side blast zones are small, his dsmash kills early here. Relatively low ceiling, can easily be killed off the top.

 

[Remzi]

I thought I was the only one who thought this way. In terms of recovery, Wolf is completely screwed from below at FD. He'll either get edgehogged or caught under the lip every time, even from the sides he has trouble getting on safely.

BF is good too, just because of Marth simply does better there. Lylat is pretty decent if you are comfortable there.

 

[Freezewish]

We have a number of stages to go to vs Wolf, without many to worry about. Alot of our best stages he has trouble on.

Lylat obviously being the best choice,but they'll likely ban this. Gives us platforms and murders his recovery.
As always battlefield is home. Use it lol.

Pokemon Stadium 1 messes up his recovery as has already been said. And we have a dtilt lock on the ground transformation.

Frigate isnt a bad stage either. There's less areas for the ledge to sweetspot on and the stage is small, so if he recovers he will likely go for the stage and you can punish sooo easily and send him back off. But only use this if you know what you're doing here.


I always have bad luck on Yoshi's island (brawl). Those random platforms always save him and he seems to do well here so I would ban this.

 

[VietGeek]

His lasers are way too slow for camping. It's mostly a pressure mechanism in conjunction with his lagless fair and bair.

A campy Wolf is really just a campy Marth using his feet. <_<

 

[BBoyindo]

People, now i come to think of if, the new DS Ledge Grab AT could be a blessing in this matchup. He would miss the ledge, and on stages like lylat, FD, and PS1 he is dead even if you get hit on the last hits he gives. I'd CP those.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

If he bans Lylat go with FD. If he doesn't then Lylat it is. Ban Yoshi's Brawl he's good there.

 

[Remzi]

As for bans, YI is a good choice as solid mentioned. You can also consider banning SV if you aren't comfortable there.