Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
If you want to be decent with Pichu just spam SH nair.
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BrawlLover
Smash Champion
Mass. LOLs.I was letting people at the local pick my characters, so I won with Falcon and lost with Peach and Falco.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
also, i want to post this quote for a very small apparent reason
"If anything was possible it would definitely happen..."
"If anything was possible it would definitely happen..."
unknown522
Some guy
obviously me
SpaceFalcon
Smash Lord
ChuDat. But Chu is a good smash player in general.. best pichu I'm going to say NGCXX maybe even my pichu. Most knowledged pichu is probably t0mmy.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
unknown's pichu is teh sex.
D
Deleted member
Guest
umm actually yes it does. That's EXACTLY what it means.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
What the hell? So can we really place a character on the tier list based on the placings of 1... maybe 2 players? (HugS for Samus, Chu and Wobbles for ICs for example)
We can't just assume that's the players talent pushing the character to do well and then go on to assume they would be just as competitive with another character, like Chu is with Pika or Y. Link?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
no it doesnt, tourney results dont show how good a character is, it's based wayyyyyyyyyy too much off individual player skill and popularity and who still plays and who doesnt
Alphicans
Smash Hero
This worries me... Deeply. If that's all what the tier list was based on, then idk. I just don't know.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
Hell yeah Marth at the top where he belongs!
JrdnS
Smash Ace
so are you saying tourney results dont at all show how good a character is. because thats what im getting out of this. how else are people supposed to measure how good a character is other than the best players playing characters at a high skill and seeing how their character does in a tourney against other great players.
D
Deleted member
Guest
convo with m2k from 30 minutes ago:
[22:45] Jason: tourney results dont show how good a character is
[22:45] Jason: its based wayyyyyyyyyy too much off individual player skill and popularity and who still plays and who doesnt
[23:14] MycatgoesMow: not really
[23:15] Jason: what if pichus were ranking higher than pikachus
[23:15] Jason: it dosent mean pichu is better
[23:16] MycatgoesMow: yes it would
[23:16] MycatgoesMow: tiers are supposed to show tournament results
[23:16] MycatgoesMow: only tournaments matter
[23:16] Jason: no way
[23:16] Jason: tiers show how good the character is
[23:16] MycatgoesMow: in tournament
[23:16] Jason: otherwise
[23:16] Jason: we need to
[23:16] Jason: definite tier
[23:16] Jason: just cuz thats what happened in the past
[23:16] Jason: means thats what SHOULD happen
[23:16] MycatgoesMow: thats why the last list was dumb
[23:17] MycatgoesMow: with fox and falco top alone
[23:17] Jason: sheik being 3rd is dumb
[23:17] MycatgoesMow: cause tournaments don't show that
[23:17] MycatgoesMow: based on US tournaments sheik should be 4th
[23:17] MycatgoesMow: cause you made marth 1st/2nd
[23:17] Jason: based on europe sheik should be 1st
[23:17] Jason: based on japan sheik/fox are 1/2
[23:17] MycatgoesMow: if you **** everyone @ sheik, sheik will be first
[23:17] MycatgoesMow: we're not europe or japan
[23:17] Jason: thats stupid
[23:17] Jason: basically whatever i do is the tiers
[23:17] Jason: thats so dumb
[23:18] MycatgoesMow: you're like 1 of 3 people that can change the tiers cause you have the most influence on tournament results
[23:18] MycatgoesMow: if you want sheik to be first, do it
[23:18] Jason: i use sheik vs like
[23:19] Jason: almost everyone cept spacies cuz i can CG them with marth
[23:19] MycatgoesMow: ok then use her and only her in the finals for like 6 major tournaments and she'll be first
[23:19] MycatgoesMow: thats only like 30 matches for you
[23:19] MycatgoesMow: np right?
[23:20] Jason: LOL
[23:20] Jason: it would be so much easier
[23:20] Jason: if kdj was still around
[23:20] Jason: i beat pcs fox the last time i played it with sheik
[23:20] Jason: it was FD too
[23:20] Jason: and his tech skill was fine
[23:20] MycatgoesMow: so do it in tournament
[23:20] Jason: theres no reason to when i can have better chances CGing with marth
[23:20] Jason: like, why should i risk money
[23:20] Jason: just to prove tiers
[23:20] Jason: money > tiers
[23:21] MycatgoesMow: so when it comes time to win money, you choose marth, which means you have a higher chance to win with him, aka he's a better character for winning tournaments, aka higher on the tier list
[23:21] MycatgoesMow: thank you, now we're on the same page
[23:21] MycatgoesMow: I've been saying this for years
[23:21] MycatgoesMow: reasons don't matter
[23:22] MycatgoesMow: when people want to win and use better chars, thats how we define tiers
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
^this post *****.
character potential realistically is seen in tourney.
look at hugs, the way he plays against spacies is the best way as of right now known to beat them with samus.
people learn at a higher level of play what to do to be gay to certain chars.
falco vs samus up b out of shield all day son.
samus wins.
plz don't bother to disagree with me, your not going to change my mind.
i think that ganon should be higher, even or a little better than samus.
idk about the dk match up.
dr mario?!! look he's a ***** joke dude i haven't seen a good dr. in like a millenia so don't even consider him.
face the facts peeps.
samus is too good!!
character potential realistically is seen in tourney.
look at hugs, the way he plays against spacies is the best way as of right now known to beat them with samus.
people learn at a higher level of play what to do to be gay to certain chars.
falco vs samus up b out of shield all day son.
samus wins.
plz don't bother to disagree with me, your not going to change my mind.
i think that ganon should be higher, even or a little better than samus.
idk about the dk match up.
dr mario?!! look he's a ***** joke dude i haven't seen a good dr. in like a millenia so don't even consider him.
face the facts peeps.
samus is too good!!
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
uh...
name a doc that has placed top 10 in the past 2 years at major tourneys.
lol, have i ever been to a tourney.
u'd get pooped.
name a doc that has placed top 10 in the past 2 years at major tourneys.
lol, have i ever been to a tourney.
u'd get pooped.
slikvik
Smash Master
lol m2k owned himself at the end of that convo
Finch
Smash Lord
Why would m2k use sheik in the finals when the finals are always against spacies/peach/ics and his marth is better against them?
ummmmmm, exactly?
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
hahahahahaha, wow jason
Finch
Smash Lord
Just because marth is better against those four characters doesn't mean he's better than shiek.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Indeed, I believe Ganons can place consistently much higher than Docs or Samus =P
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
thank you.
kage i gotta play friendlies with you at event 52. your ganon sounds too good.
doc just doesn't really have what it takes anymore imo, luigi is placing higher than he is lately and showing more promise. thats just my opinion tho.
kage i gotta play friendlies with you at event 52. your ganon sounds too good.
doc just doesn't really have what it takes anymore imo, luigi is placing higher than he is lately and showing more promise. thats just my opinion tho.
But he has a better chance of WINNING THE TOURNAMENT than sheik does.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Pikachus have been placing better then Docs
slikvik
Smash Master
thank you. people don't seem to be getting this. lets repeat over and over until they do
D
Deleted member
Guest
if those 4 characters are the ones commonly used, it makes marth better than sheik for a tournament setting.
is this concept really that hard to grasp?
Finch
Smash Lord
well if you think tiers should be based only on tournament results then you're not going to agree with me anyway. I thought they were supposed to reflect actual quality of character.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
dude...
people show the quality of the character in tourney. if they dont, then how else will the actual quality be shown?
basing the tier list based on placing is what is best.
because its been proven by actual people placing well overall with those chars.
people show the quality of the character in tourney. if they dont, then how else will the actual quality be shown?
basing the tier list based on placing is what is best.
because its been proven by actual people placing well overall with those chars.
J.Shadows
Smash Champion
i think Link can place higher than ganon and doc
even pichu and kirby
depends on who is playing them
even pichu and kirby
depends on who is playing them
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
Then they should play as Link and win 1st at huge tournaments. >_>
DashDancesWithWolves
Smash Rookie
What I think M2K was trying to say before was that you cannot really have tier lists reflect both tourney results and character quality with player talent level assumed constant, as tourney results are influenced heavily on players having variable talent. It seems almost mutually exclusive. He also makes the point that recent tourney results are skewed from players retiring.
As for the chat it seems like he was trying to say that while he personally prefers to use Marth in those situations, a full Sheik main at a similar talent level, such as hypothetically KDJ would have been had he continued to compete, would be just as comfortable using Sheik in those same matchups. He stumbled a bit with the way he was trying to get his points across though. Those gotcha chats can do that, heh.
This is just the way I'm interpreting his side of the debate. I do enjoy this exchange and hope discussion will continue. Both sides have their points.
As for the chat it seems like he was trying to say that while he personally prefers to use Marth in those situations, a full Sheik main at a similar talent level, such as hypothetically KDJ would have been had he continued to compete, would be just as comfortable using Sheik in those same matchups. He stumbled a bit with the way he was trying to get his points across though. Those gotcha chats can do that, heh.
This is just the way I'm interpreting his side of the debate. I do enjoy this exchange and hope discussion will continue. Both sides have their points.
w!zard
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 153
if you want the tiers to reflect which characters are "best", theory matters too. if you just want to show which character performs the best in the current metagame, tourney results is what matters. i suspect m2k disagrees with the latter definition of tier because of the inconsistencies in available data
DashDancesWithWolves
Smash Rookie
The problem if you go full on with theory is you invariably get those that vote for characters like Fox or Falco for what they can do in Action Replay, since with AR you can achieve the pinnacle of what is theoretically possible, even if some of that is beyond human capability and irrelevant at even the most technical levels. Then you have the problem of deciding what is and isn't relevant.
The problem with available data i.e. tourney results goes back to what M2K is arguing. If anything tourney results would lend itself more to Power Ranking type lists than pure character analysis at constant human-level talent.
So I guess the real question is what is the true definition of a tier list?
The problem with available data i.e. tourney results goes back to what M2K is arguing. If anything tourney results would lend itself more to Power Ranking type lists than pure character analysis at constant human-level talent.
So I guess the real question is what is the true definition of a tier list?
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
raaaaaaaaaape
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
just cause m2k said so doesn't mean it's actually true
DashDancesWithWolves
Smash Rookie
Never said it did, but it's pretty undeniable that talent affects tourney results, and so you can't have a tier list based on tourney results while still having the assumption that player talent is held equal, which Umbreon mentioned earlier. Pretty much if he hadn't included that assumption, M2K's argument wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on.
Personally I think this tier list is mostly fine the way it is, except I think Ganon and possibly Jigglypuff should be slightly higher.
Personally I think this tier list is mostly fine the way it is, except I think Ganon and possibly Jigglypuff should be slightly higher.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
if it's purely tournament results and nothing else then dk is way too low
pkm was a 1st seed at vls and only didn't make bracket because of his flight home
pkm got 9th at 0c3
bum got 4rth at mlg long island
mexican got 13th at super champ combo
what the hell have doc and ganon done that's better than that recently
kage got 9th at TGMTSBCO but that wasn't anything compared to how big 0c3 was and it didn't have the same talent as MLG Long Island either (kdj, pc, chu, m2k).
pkm was a 1st seed at vls and only didn't make bracket because of his flight home
pkm got 9th at 0c3
bum got 4rth at mlg long island
mexican got 13th at super champ combo
what the hell have doc and ganon done that's better than that recently
kage got 9th at TGMTSBCO but that wasn't anything compared to how big 0c3 was and it didn't have the same talent as MLG Long Island either (kdj, pc, chu, m2k).
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